Originally posted by Digi
Since I started Flashpoint, I'm seeing it through to the last couple issues. I saw Didio running spin control in the editor's comments in Flashpoint #4, answering the question "Why are we buying pre-Flashpoint comics?" I'm not sure if the answer made a ton of sense. About the only satisfying answer was (paraphrased) "Anything getting cancelled, we're giving it a good ending." The rest seemed to gloss over the whole reboot idea, to make it seem like as long as the series was continuing, nothing was changing. So the Batman issue I picked up last week with Dick as Batman, involved in a random Two-Face/Riddler plot that will have never existed...that was worth it?
Why read a comic that won't be in continuity? Because the story and/or the artwork is good. This are the most important reasons to read a comic imho. Earth One for example was nice and I don't care about continuity that much. Kingdom Come or Return of the Dark Knight were also good.
I don't mind them rebooting the whole franchise, now. They should do it more boldly though. Start from 0 and forget this whole "some events did take place" bullshit. No CoiE, no ZH. A new Uni/Multi/Omni-verse and that's it. No half-baked bullshit.
But even so, as long as the artwork is good and the stories well written, I won't mind a "broken-continuity" at all... it's DC so I don't expect it to be consistent...
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeMy thinking exactly.
Why read a comic that won't be in continuity? Because the story and/or the artwork is good. This are the most important reasons to read a comic imho. Earth One for example was nice and I don't care about continuity that much. Kingdom Come or Return of the Dark Knight were also good.I don't mind them rebooting the whole franchise, now. They should do it more boldly though. Start from 0 and forget this whole "some events did take place" bullshit. No CoiE, no ZH. A new Uni/Multi/Omni-verse and that's it. No half-baked bullshit.
But even so, as long as the artwork is good and the stories well written, I won't mind a "broken-continuity" at all... it's DC so I don't expect it to be consistent...
Originally posted by Q99
I'm hard pressed to think of one.Also, if it's consistent enough, 'feigned misogyny' is really just misogyny. It's like the saying goes, there's no 'pretending' to be a jerk, if you're acting like a jerk, you're a jerk.
Oh, the whole "attitude of the fans!" argument is bunk. 'That person likes a character/is defending a character in response to trolling! That's a perfect (retroactive) justification for trolling!'.
It's not true with Wolverine fans, fans, Superman fans, Hulk fans, or whatever. If your justification for slagging off a character is that people reactive negatively to slagging off a character... well, duh, that's because of how you were acting first. If defending a point is what makes fans look bad in your eyes, then the problem really isn't with the fans, it's with you.
The last five times they fought were Sacrifice, For Tomorrow, League of One, Circe-fied Superman, and the Tenth Circle. Bloody win by Wondy, stalemate with neither hurt, brief conflict where Supes gets a few bruises and then they break things off, fight until she breaks his enchantment in exchange for some wounds, and stalemate until a vampire helps Superman.
The results are highly consistent, there really isn't room for argument here.
Just like Superman can beat Captain Marvel, but most of the time when they fight it's a stalemate because actually pushing things far enough and long enough to get a win is a pretty rare thing.
A higher proportion than is represented in the makers, though.
And again, they're in a position to decide the proportion of writers. They can mine and specifically look for people in different demographics if they want.
That's a classic response whenever anyone wants to bury an argument they don't want to listen to. If you don't like the subject it's automatically just 'whiny.'
You can write off any complaint as whiny if you want to, or you can listen to it.
Honestly I find your complaint a bit whiny. I'll try and listen to it anyway.
Yea, but you shouldn't have to be better than most everyone else to get in. Requiring a higher standard of some people makes it harder for them to get in.
Excellent post Q99
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
... it's DC so I don't expect it to be consistent...
I lul'd.
Consistency and history, and the ability to follow characters as they evolve through the years, is a valid reason to read comics. I can find good stories from any company (not all of them, obviously, but enough), good art from various writers. With the selection available to us, are all of these things too much to ask? I say no. DC can no longer deliver all of them.
Originally posted by Digi
I lul'd.Consistency and history, and the ability to follow characters as they evolve through the years, is a valid reason to read comics. I can find good stories from any company (not all of them, obviously, but enough), good art from various writers. With the selection available to us, are all of these things too much to ask? I say no. DC can no longer deliver all of them.
I get your point but I read those pre-crisis comics and even though they weren't consistent or logical sometimes, I still enjoyed them. They have just to stay true to the character and it won't be a matter. Sometimes, when I pick up a pre-crisis comic I still read it and laugh, I know it's not in continuity but somehow they are still enjoyable 😄.
Originally posted by Digi
I lul'd.Consistency and history, and the ability to follow characters as they evolve through the years, is a valid reason to read comics. I can find good stories from any company (not all of them, obviously, but enough), good art from various writers. With the selection available to us, are all of these things too much to ask? I say no. DC can no longer deliver all of them.
👆
Originally posted by Digi
I lul'd.Consistency and history, and the ability to follow characters as they evolve through the years, is a valid reason to read comics. I can find good stories from any company (not all of them, obviously, but enough), good art from various writers. With the selection available to us, are all of these things too much to ask? I say no. DC can no longer deliver all of them.
Except that they may have hit a plateau and not felt like they could do any more. Not saying I agree, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Cyclops get some sort of "fix" as it were.
All things considered, I'm happier with the changes being made to someone like Superman than I am the "development" they've been giving Cyclops.
I'm not ready to call foul just yet.
Originally posted by -Pr-
😐go peddle your agenda somewhere else, please. Failing that, re-read my post, please, and try to respond to the actual points I made, not your defensive interpretation of them.
Hey, I gave direct examples of the fights, and explained why a few exceptional female writers does not an even field make.
And the 'attitude of the fans' thing? Still bunk.
"The problem with the wonder woman fans is that they're always complaining about the misogyny of the attacks, who are really there and do it in large amounts," is a problem because we really do have these trolls and they do regularly come up.
I mean, I'm not really pulling this out of thin air, it's not a strawman, this came up directly because we had one of those trolls make an appearance, and I'm complaining about what he's actually doing.
But no, maybe you're right, surely the problem's the fans for... calling him on his BS that's actually going on?
Call that an agenda and 'part of the problem', but I'm going to call that out on that being a BS logical fallacy if you do 🙂 You're confusing cause and effect here on where the problem is.
You really want fans to not complain loudly about ? Try doing something about, y'know, the actual real problem they're complaining about 🙂 Responses to trolls go away if the trolls do!
Originally posted by Bentley
Q, seriously?
Hey, that's my line 🙂
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Why read a comic that won't be in continuity? Because the story and/or the artwork is good. This are the most important reasons to read a comic imho. Earth One for example was nice and I don't care about continuity that much. Kingdom Come or Return of the Dark Knight were also good.I don't mind them rebooting the whole franchise, now. They should do it more boldly though. Start from 0 and forget this whole "some events did take place" bullshit. No CoiE, no ZH. A new Uni/Multi/Omni-verse and that's it. No half-baked bullshit.
But even so, as long as the artwork is good and the stories well written, I won't mind a "broken-continuity" at all... it's DC so I don't expect it to be consistent...
At first I would have agreed with you, but in the end they are taking in the good and throwing out the bad. IMHO, it's the better thing to do.
Originally posted by Q99Hey, I gave direct examples of the fights, and explained why a few exceptional female writers does not an even field make.
And the 'attitude of the fans' thing? Still bunk.
"The problem with the wonder woman fans is that they're always complaining about the misogyny of the attacks, who are really there and do it in large amounts," is a problem because we really do have these trolls and they do regularly come up.
I mean, I'm not really pulling this out of thin air, it's not a strawman, this came up directly because we had one of those trolls make an appearance, and I'm complaining about what he's actually doing.
But no, maybe you're right, surely the problem's the fans for... calling him on his BS that's actually going on?
Call that an agenda and 'part of the problem', but I'm going to call that out on that being a BS logical fallacy if you do 🙂 You're confusing cause and effect here on where the problem is.
You really want fans to not complain loudly about ? Try doing something about, y'know, the actual real problem they're complaining about 🙂 Responses to trolls go away if the trolls do!
Hey, that's my line 🙂 [/B]
So you're not going to reply to anything I said, then? All right, no problem.
Wonder Woman fans (some, not all) have always used the character as a a tool to push a so-called feminist agenda. God forbid the character isn't given special treatment by the writer, or said writer dares to say that the character isn't the feminist icon she's supposed to be.
Wonder Woman fans are as much a part of a problem as any misogyny that exists, and have been for a long time. You want to talk about cause an effect, yet completely ignore that a lot of the people that react badly to Wonder Woman do so because of said fans.
That's all I've honestly got to say on the matter, because I read enough of that kind of thing on the DC boards, which is funny considering that the company for years has been writing and promoting strong women characters, writers and artists.
Originally posted by -Pr-
So you're not going to reply to anything I said, then? All right, no problem.
Uh, no, I directly responded
Either by providing direct examples, or by pointing out how the issue in question is a fallacy.
Wonder Woman fans (some, not all) have always used the character as a a tool to push a so-called feminist agenda. God forbid the character isn't given special treatment by the writer, or said writer dares to say that the character isn't the feminist icon she's supposed to be.
🙄
Note that no-one is saying that.
Wonder Woman fans are as much a part of a problem as any misogyny that exists, and have been for a long time. You want to talk about cause an effect, yet completely ignore that a lot of the people that react badly to Wonder Woman do so because of said fans.
Maybe the real problem is the "Maybe the real problem is the Wonder Woman fans," people? They're just as much a part of the problem as the people who are pointing out the misogyny exists. You want to talk about cause and effect, yet completely ignore that a lot of the people that react badly to said trolls do so because of people like that.
--
Or to put it another way, that's a logic fallacy. Sure, some, small minority may dislike a character just because . But the 'problem' of people defending them simply wouldn't exist at all if people weren't causing a problem, and they're doing so entirely of their own free will.
And you know what? It does go down when it's pointed out. More-so than any hypothetical number that only started because people are telling people to stop.
"The real problem is the people pointing out the problem/they're just as much a part of the problem," is, and always has been, a crappy argument on any number of issues.
That's all I've honestly got to say on the matter, because I read enough of that kind of thing on the DC boards, which is funny considering that the company for years has been writing and promoting strong women characters, writers and artists.
Do you know what I like about DC? They've admitted they can do better and are now working to do so 🙂
JMS on DC's relaunch and his sequel to Superman Earth 1.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
At first I would have agreed with you, but in the end they are taking in the good and throwing out the bad. IMHO, it's the better thing to do.
IF they end taking the good and throwing out the bad, a big IF. We will see, we will see, let's hope the best 'cause there seem not to be many alternative to DC...
Originally posted by -Pr-
Except that they may have hit a plateau and not felt like they could do any more. Not saying I agree, but I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Cyclops get some sort of "fix" as it were.All things considered, I'm happier with the changes being made to someone like Superman than I am the "development" they've been giving Cyclops.
I'm not ready to call foul just yet.
That's individual characters. I read JSA and Batman, whose histories, backstories, legacies, and shootoff characters are a gargantuan chunk of their mystique.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I get your point but I read those pre-crisis comics and even though they weren't consistent or logical sometimes, I still enjoyed them. They have just to stay true to the character and it won't be a matter. Sometimes, when I pick up a pre-crisis comic I still read it and laugh, I know it's not in continuity but somehow they are still enjoyable 😄.
I did a bunch of research on pre-crisis canon at one point for a tourney. Even in worlds where they were destroyed, when the characters survived their histories remained intact. With exceptions, of course, and exceptions to the exceptions. But when you dig into it, it's surprising how much PC material remained canon...and not just for the ones DC specifically mentioned afterwards, like the GL Corps. So in the first Crisis, they streamlined continuity by focusing on a single world and eliminating (most) duplicate characters like Superman. They didn't rearrange everyone's canon wholesale.
Until Flashpoint, of course.