If you do not give me ten bucks, I shall report you. To your mom.
What I do not understand is why you think that unopposed militarization is bigger than militarization in times of wars and, in the case of the YV, warring for your very survival. The Empire did not expend all of it's resources in said buildup; the NR likely expended much of it's yearly budget in ship production.
The most impressive industrial feat of the Empire, building two Death Stars, were something the CIS planned to do, in freaking secret.
Originally posted by FortitudePlanned to, but could never implement. A 150 km battlestation isn't the same as churning out capital ships and droids (which the Empire also did). It took a totalitarian, galaxy-spanning, highly militarized autocracy 19 years perfecting the super laser.
If you do not give me ten bucks, I shall report you. To your mom.What I do not understand is why you think that unopposed militarization is bigger than militarization in times of wars and, in the case of the YV, warring for your very survival. The Empire did not expend all of it's resources in said buildup; the NR likely expended much of it's yearly budget in ship production.
The most impressive industrial feat of the Empire, building two Death Stars, were something the CIS planned to do, in freaking secret.
And what we don't understand about you is why you think that an ostensibly democratic Republic whose early years were spent building ships to blow up in the fight with the Remnant, and the GA, whose New Republic veterans and forces were decimated by the Vong and further thinned by the Swarm War and Second Civil War would stand a chance against the largest and most centralized military force ever seen. And compared to the tyrannical military oppression of the Empire, why would the freedom-toting New Republic allocate funds from the rebuilding of a democratic galaxy to match the Imperial Navy of Palaptine's rule? They were trying to distance themselves from such overwhelming might and military presence, not emulate it.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Planned to, but could never implement.
The fact that they had plans to do so and intended to keep it a secret means that even the CIS in it's infancy had sufficient resources to construct the Death Star.
A 150 km battlestation isn't the same as churning out capital ships and droids (which the Empire also did).
Correct; the Death Star outmasses the imperial starfleet by several orders of magnitude, and even the CIS could do so.
It took a totalitarian, galaxy-spanning, highly militarized autocracy 19 years perfecting the super laser.
Mon Momtha called the DS superlaser the largest ever created; superlaser tech is nothing new, merely the size was the big part, and powering it.
And what we don't understand about you is why you think that an ostensibly democratic Republic whose early years were spent building ships to blow up in the fight with the Remnant, and the GA, whose New Republic veterans and forces were decimated by the Vong and further thinned by the Swarm War and Second Civil War would stand a chance against the largest and most centralized
military force ever seen. And compared to the tyrannical military oppression of the Empire, why would the freedom-toting New Republic allocate funds from the
rebuilding of a democratic galaxy to match the Imperial Navy of Palaptine's
rule? They were trying to distance themselves from such overwhelming might
and military presence, not emulate it.
The pre YV invasion NR was demilitarizing, bit after the conflict one would doubt that the Galactic Alliance would make such a mistake. To even things out, I did include in the OP that any damage from the YV has been repaired, and damage from later conflicts such as the second GCW are insignificant compared to production rates.
I am not claiming that the Alliance can challenge the Empire on equal footing militarily, but they have defender's advantage. Taking over a galactic civilization requires enormous logistics and likely a power advantage of hundreds to one to be successful.
But hey, that's just me. It's defense + a fledging JO and noticeably superior technology vs a likely numerical advantage and superweapons.
Taking Coruscant, for example, or any shielded planet, is gonna be a pain.
Originally posted by Fortitude
The fact that they had plans to do so and intended to keep it a secret means that even the CIS in it's infancy had sufficient resources to construct the Death Star.
What the hell? No it doesn't. I, being an architect, can draw out a complete schematic and blue-print for a 20 story building. I can then make plans to build this building in my backyard. That in itself does not mean that I have the 200 million dollars and multiple hundreds of thousands of tons of material to literally build the building. That is awful logic.
Originally posted by Fortitude...? What? I, right now in my possession and mind, have plans to build a 1,000 story skyscraper. By your logic, I have sufficient resources (and the capability) to do it simply because "I plan to".
The fact that they had plans to do so and intended to keep it a secret means that even the CIS in it's infancy had sufficient resources to construct the Death Star.
That is absolutely retarded logic.
Originally posted by FortitudeOh yeah, easily, and in less than time than the absolute dictator of the entire galaxy. Sure, there's 19 years of technical flaws and structural problems to smooth out at the exact same time the CIS (a faction much smaller than the Empire) has to fight a massive war with the Republic which demands a huge portion of their resources as it is, but whatevs.
Correct; the Death Star outmasses the imperial starfleet by several orders of magnitude, and even the CIS could do so.
Going by... your mentality, if they can simply dream, then they have built it already!
Originally posted by FortitudeSure. 19 years of development. 6 years longer than the entire history of the CIS, but whatever. They don't Dream It... they Be It!
Mon Momtha called the DS superlaser the largest ever created; superlaser tech is nothing new, merely the size was the big part, and powering it.
Originally posted by FortitudeThat's good, because the GA here is going to require the abolition of their handicaps from the 365-trillion dead Yuuzhan Vong invasion in order to stand against the Empire.
The pre YV invasion NR was demilitarizing, bit after the conflict one would doubt that the Galactic Alliance would make such a mistake. To even things out, I did include in the OP that any damage from the YV has been repaired, and damage from later conflicts such as the second GCW are insignificant compared to production rates.
Originally posted by FortitudeBecause the Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders outnumbered the Republic forces 100(s):1 when they invaded...
I am not claiming that the Alliance can challenge the Empire on equal footing militarily, but they have defender's advantage. Taking over a galactic civilization requires enormous logistics and likely a power advantage of hundreds to one to be successful.
Originally posted by FortitudeReally? With the presence of the superweapons and the people within the GA who have witnessed their effects first hand, the GA and NJO know full well that no planetary shield is equipped to withstand the Death Stars, or the Sun Crusher, or the Galaxy Gun, or the Tarkin, or the World Devastators. What's the GA fleet gonna do against the nigh-impenetrable armor of the Sun Crusher?
But hey, that's just me. It's defense + a fledging JO and noticeably superior technology vs a likely numerical advantage and superweapons.Taking Coruscant, for example, or any shielded planet, is gonna be a pain.
Oh, I forgot... the GA will simply "plan" to defeat the Empire, and---POOF!---they will! Because they know how to dream big!
The GA may have their strength back without the YV casualties, but at the very least the Empire is going to take down them down with it, and at most, overwhelm them with sheer firepower/numbers.
When I have time, I will respond to the rest, but the CIS thing:
They seriously planned to make a Death Star, presumably within a time for it to matter in the war. You can think up skyscrapers all you want, but you do not actually intend to build them. The fact that they had serious plans to build it, and expected to be able to keep the construction secret, means:
1. The CIS possessed the industrial might to build a death star and keep it hidden from Republic intel.
Or
2. The CIS is batshit insane, and only survived that long because of luck, as they grossly overestimate their abilities.
Make your pick.
1. By your/Lucien's argument, it would not be until the CIS reaches Empire size before it can build a death star, a point in which they already would have won long ago. If they wanted to build a DS then for some reason, they're planning too far ahead. Why would Poogle be so terrified of the Republic finding out about it?
2. Um, you can plan to build something after you can afford it. The CN tower was planned and built after Canada could well afford it. They did not in the middle of ww2 start planning to build it.
Originally posted by Fortitude
1. By your/Lucien's argument, it would not be until the CIS reaches Empire size before it can build a death star, a point in which they already would have won long ago. If they wanted to build a DS then for some reason, they're planning too far ahead. Why would Poogle be so terrified of the Republic finding out about it?
No, by my logic them having plans to build a death star does not mean that they at the time of planning had the resources to actually do it. Being as large as the Empire has nothing to do with anything I said, unless you're trying to argue that you would need GE sized resources to build one. I never said such.
2. Um, you can plan to build something after you can afford it. The CN tower was planned and built after Canada could well afford it. They did not in the middle of ww2 start planning to build it.I'm going to ask you again, since that has nothing to do with what I said.
Do you seriously think that people don't draw up plans for buildings until after they can afford to do so?
Originally posted by Fortitude"Terrified" is an exaggeration. He was "terrified" right before Vader cut him in two. "Concerned" fits better here.
1. By your/Lucien's argument, it would not be until the CIS reaches Empire size before it can build a death star, a point in which they already would have won long ago. If they wanted to build a DS then for some reason, they're planning too far ahead. Why would Poogle be so terrified of the Republic finding out about it?
Have you considered that the enemy knowing about/having information on something you call "the Ultimate Weapon" would be a bad thing? If my army had powerful sidearms, I'd want those kept secret too (especially before I've even built them!), nevermind my "Ultimate Weapon".
Have you considered that "planning to build" and "being able to build" are two entirely different things? Plans have gone awry and fallen in to nothing because it turns out that one does not have the time/means/resources to build it.
Have you considered that after winning the war, possessing a planet-destroyer would be a good away of consolidating one's power? That's what the Empire had in mind when it controlled the galaxy. Rule through fear.
Originally posted by FortitudeSo was that condominium built down the road two years ago. What's your point? "Planning" and "actually building" are two entirely separate things--try to understand that. I can literally, today, start designing and drawing the blueprints for a new kind of car or building, or a rifle, or a new shed. I can finish them up, have it all planned out, but still be totally unable to actually build it because I'm spending all my money and resources on another project (like a war).
2. Um, you can plan to build something after you can afford it. The CN tower was planned and built after Canada could well afford it. They did not in the middle of ww2 start planning to build it.
You must be very young to not grasp such a simple thing.
The CIS is an organization run with military efficiency. The fact that they spent time planning construction of the DS means that they either have the resources or reasonably expected to gain said resources before the war had finished*. You can draw up plans to build yourself a rifle or a skyscraper. That's not the impressive part. When you're prepping for war, you only make plans for things that you can reasonably expect to be able to commence in the relevant timeframe.
You don't actually have serious plans to build a skyscraper. Your gun analogy
has more merit, except that it's a red herring. You can split hairs by saying that the CIS could not build a DS at the moment*, but whether they expected to be able to by AotC, RotS or another time does not change the fact that they expected to be able to BEFORE they gained control of the galaxy-see first asterisk. You actually could build yourself a rifle given enough technical knowledge and some money that you can reasonably afford.
*There would not be much point in making plans to build the DS if they did not expect to do so until after they won, because then there would be no point. You could claim that they were planning to use the DS to discourage rebellions after they hypothetically won, but then why would they spent time planning so irrelevantly far into the future, while giving the Republic a potential propaganda piece if the plans are stolen?
*As impressive as the DS seems in our eyes, and as impressive as it is, there is no reason why the CIS would lack the resources to build it. The RotS, or was it the AotC, ICS mentions that individual mining corporations mine billions of planets, which makes sense given the scale of a galactic civilization. The technology and metals are in place, and droids are easily made; the only real difficulty is making a huge hypermatter reactor to power it.
Sorry for the double post. My computer is experiencing difficulties, so i am using an iPod touch.
My point is that drawing up technical plans for the DS, while impressive, is not the key feat here. It's that they planned to build the DS with either the resources they have or those that they will acquire before they have anywhere near the galactic dominance the Empire had that is the key point.
The Empire certainly has an initial numerical advantage, but in industrial might the two superpowers in the OP are at parity.
This is stupid. There is no reason to believe that the CIS had the resources to build the DS because they were planning it... Need I remind you all who the CIS was working for? Palpatine! He was using them to lay the ground work of his ultimate weapon for his Empire, not so they could defeat the Republic. So sure they may have believed that they could build the DS... But they also believed that Palpatine would win them a galaxy. And we all saw how that worked out.
Originally posted by Q99I'd agree with this, for the most part. Empire's got some top aces, but the GA has more and better ones.
Anywhere there's fighter combat the GA is definitely going to mop up; they might as well all be piloting TIE Advanced.
Originally posted by FortitudeEven Rudy wasn't this backward.
The CIS is an organization run with military efficiency. The fact that they spent time planning construction of the DS means that they either have the resources or reasonably expected to gain said resources before the war had finished*. You can draw up plans to build yourself a rifle or a skyscraper. That's not the impressive part. When you're prepping for war, you only make plans for things that you can reasonably expect to be able to commence in the relevant timeframe.You don't actually have serious plans to build a skyscraper. Your gun analogy
has more merit, except that it's a red herring. You can split hairs by saying that the CIS could not build a DS at the moment*, but whether they expected to be able to by AotC, RotS or another time does not change the fact that they expected to be able to BEFORE they gained control of the galaxy-see first asterisk. You actually could build yourself a rifle given enough technical knowledge and some money that you can reasonably afford.*There would not be much point in making plans to build the DS if they did not expect to do so until after they won, because then there would be no point. You could claim that they were planning to use the DS to discourage rebellions after they hypothetically won, but then why would they spent time planning so irrelevantly far into the future, while giving the Republic a potential propaganda piece if the plans are stolen?
*As impressive as the DS seems in our eyes, and as impressive as it is, there is no reason why the CIS would lack the resources to build it. The RotS, or was it the AotC, ICS mentions that individual mining corporations mine billions of planets, which makes sense given the scale of a galactic civilization. The technology and metals are in place, and droids are easily made; the only real difficulty is making a huge hypermatter reactor to power it.
You think the CIS had the structural capabilities to build a Death Star? Sure, I believe that. The ship-building and processing infrastructure of countless thousands of worlds would provide the workforce and resources necessary to build such a station. But for some reason you believe that the CIS can afford to build it amidst a galaxy spanning civil war that requires those shipyards and resources to build their droids and ships. That's gonna slow them down significantly.
You also think that the CIS had the technological capacity to build the Death Star. That is simply not true, and is supported by too many canonical sources to suggest otherwise. The CIS was controlled ultimately by Palpatine. Even if he didn't want the Confederacy to be in possession of a Death Star (choosing instead to allow his re-structured Republic to have that), he nevertheless still wanted it (as early as AotC, when Dooku delivered the plans to him). From the Declaration of a New Order in 19 BBY (when the frame of the Death Star was begun [and was coming along nicely]), until 0 ABY is how long it took until the Death Star became functional, as noted in the novel, Death Star.
Palpatine's tyrannical, highly-militarized, absolutist, Tarkin-doctrinized Empire took nineteen years to complete the Death Star with its functioning superlaser. The Clone Wars lasted for three years.
Even if the CIS had begun construction immediately at the war's onset, by the time their government had been eradicated and their armies shut down, they'd still be 16 years behind schedule. That's not even factoring the necessary drain in men (or droid) and materiel that would have taken place in order to fuel their conventional fleet-to-fleet engagements with the Republic. We're also forgetting something The Clone Wars show introduced that would serve to complicate matters: the Confederate Senate--complete with humanity and compassionate governmental officials whose involvement (even if overruled by Dooku and Sidious' machinations) would undoubtedly hinder the creation of a planet-destroyer. We're also again not factoring the fact that, compared to the Empire's Death Star project, the Confederacy only has... half? of the known galaxy to draw from (men and materiel, remember?). Maybe less. They would also undoubtedly be hindered by the financial costs of the unprecedented monster-sized project. Nute Gunray was a notorious cheap-skate, and even the other Separatists leaders (and financial backers) would be balking at such an expenditure.
The CIS does not have the necessary technological requirements, and even more importantly, the time to pull off construction of the Death Star.
Who is Rudy?
Explain, then, why Poggle had serious plans to build the DS. You an argue that they did not have the resources at the moment, but the fact that they planned to while in preparation for war means that they planned to have the ability to construct the DS before the war was over; as I already explained. "Before the war was over" means a time well before they have Empire level dominance.
This is simple logic; if they only expected to be able to build it after they had Empire level dominance, they would not be planning so far ahead. Therefore, the ability to build the DS either was or was almost within their grasp. That, or they're idiots.
As for why it took the Empire 19 years to build it, the same novel that you use, Death Star, cities the beaurocracy as the main time consumption problem.
Notice that after the Senate was dissolved, the 900 km DS 2 was built to 60%
completion in 6 months.
And then you throw in that the CIS lacks the technological capabilities to build a DS, something that you fail to provide support of. The DS was an engineering challenge; the technologies were already in place, hypermatter, durasteel, shielding, etc.
Originally posted by FortitudeI'm not talking about just the reactor or the material, I'm talking specifically the superlaser technology. An unprecedented weapon that took 19 years to make functional. It took Bevel Lemielisk and his team years to make it work within the Death Star's frame. Again, I'll say it:
Who is Rudy?Explain, then, why Poggle had serious plans to build the DS. You an argue that they did not have the resources at the moment, but the fact that they planned to while in preparation for war means that they planned to have the ability to construct the DS before the war was over; as I already explained. "Before the war was over" means a time well before they have Empire level dominance.
This is simple logic; if they only expected to be able to build it after they had Empire level dominance, they would not be planning so far ahead. Therefore, the ability to build the DS either was or was almost within their grasp. That, or they're idiots.
As for why it took the Empire 19 years to build it, the same novel that you use, Death Star, cities the beaurocracy as the main time consumption problem.
Notice that after the Senate was dissolved, the 900 km DS 2 was built to 60%
completion in 6 months.And then you throw in that the CIS lacks the technological capabilities to build a DS, something that you fail to provide support of. The DS was an engineering challenge; the technologies were already in place, hypermatter, durasteel, shielding, etc.
Nineteen. Freaking. Years.
Despayre was the first target to be fired on in 0 ABY, 19 years after construction began. The CIS only had three years. They didn't have the time to figure it all out. Especially while in the midst of a massive galaxy-spanning war. What don't you f*cking understand?
Seriously, man, you and me are f*cking done professionally.
Of course, you could always just give me the source you're using that states that the CIS could have a Death Star up and running within such a short amount of time. It must exist, or you're just pulling all this out of someone's speculative ass.