AOTC Obi-Wan vs. TPM Qui-Gon

Originally posted by mnat801
Pretty much. It may be simplistic, but its FACT. no, your wrong, maul never DEFEATED kenobi at all. him being force pushed and ALMOST defeated doesnt mean he was defeated. the duel did not finish there.

The "duel" was finished there. That's why Maul started p***ing about. It was his cockiness that lead to his defeat nothing else. There was certainly no competition in combat abilities.

Obi-Wan was disarmed and defeated in the actual combat. He won in the end by Surprising Maul with Qui-Gon's Lightsaber.

If TPM Obi-Wan was equal or superior to TPM Maul then he wouldn't need to surprise him and he wouldn't need to rely on another Lightsaber conveniently being available which Maul didn't notice.

Heck he wouldn't have got disarmed and thrown down the pit in the first place.

And btw the novel makes it very clear that not only was TPM Obi-Wan weaker than TPM Maul, but he was also weaker than TPM Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Again, go read the novelization. Obi-Wan's little bout of anger didn't help all too much. Maul actually out-dueled him, disarmed him, and dropped him down a hole. Then he let himself die. Obi-Wan was defeated--read: out-dueled/fought/performed. And Maul was killed. The exact same thing happened in RotS between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Maul and Anakin were superior fighters and duelists to Obi-Wan, but they did some plot-induced stupidity that made them die/burn. We don't relive PIS in this forum, only skills matter.

Obi-Wan has less skill than Maul, Qui-Gon, and Anakin.

Originally posted by mnat801
Look, you say maul out dueled, disarmed and dropped obi wan down a hole. correct. is obi won dead? no. he uses skill to come back and defeat maul. he uses a force jump and his knowledge of his surroundings (qui gons blade) to effectively suprise maul. therefore how can you defeat someone that jumps over you and cuts you in half? YES, maul was stupid. but thats what led to his downfall. So obi wan used this to his advantage and ultimately defeated maul.

It'd be like if you and I were boxing and you won the match, and then as you stood gloating victory, I shot you. You still won the match and proved the superior boxer, but I'm the one who survived the encounter.

I... seriously I can't make it any plainer for you, kid. If you don't get it, then... pity.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The "duel" was finished there. That's why Maul started p***ing about. It was his cockiness that lead to his defeat nothing else. There was certainly no competition in combat abilities.

Obi-Wan was disarmed and defeated in the actual combat. He won in the end by Surprising Maul with Qui-Gon's Lightsaber.

If TPM Obi-Wan was equal or superior to TPM Maul then he wouldn't need to surprise him and he wouldn't need to rely on another Lightsaber conveniently being available which Maul didn't notice.

Heck he wouldn't have got disarmed and thrown down the pit in the first place.

And btw the novel makes it very clear that not only was TPM Obi-Wan weaker than TPM Maul, but he was also weaker than TPM Qui-Gon.

Obi wan was disarmed, but not defeated. he won in the end due to skill and knowledge, eg knowledge of mauls stupidity, therefore he defeated maul.

Im not saying obi wan was equal or superior to maul, im saying he defeated maul. Again, knowledge of surroundings is a skill, and in this case he knew there was another blade, and maul didnt.

I'm not disagreeing with with your last statement, however, what happened in TPM still happened. And so i am basing this as well as the extra 10 years experience, and I in my opinion AOTC obi wan would defeat qui gon jinn. If it was TPM qui gon vs TPM obi wan, I would say qui gon would win.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kay you're not getting the difference between the fight, and the death. Maul was not killed mid duel, he was killed after. He was a superior swordsman and Force user, and Obi-Wan was defeated by him. In a non-lightsaber-duel related attack, Obi killed him.

It'd be like if you and I were boxing and you won the match, and then as you stood gloating victory, I shot you. You still won the match and proved the superior boxer, but I'm the one who survived the encounter.

I... seriously I can't make it any plainer for you, kid. If you don't get it, then... pity.

boxer a knocks boxer b to the ground, and taunts him. but then b gets up quickly, and ko's boxer a while he is taunting, resulting in a win.

I do understand where your coming from, and i do understand your example. But personally my example is better because in the kenobi vs maul fight, who says that maul automatically defeated obi wan when he fell into the hole and almost died? as seen in TPM, obi wan never gave up, and whether the duel ended there or not is irrelevant because in the end, obi wan clearly defeated maul.

As i have been trying to say earlier, at that point in time, yes maul could been the better swordsman/force user. However in a fight it does not come down to simply those 2 factors, it includes more, eg surprise attacks, intelligence, etc. not every boxer wins because he is the biggest and strongest.

And dont talk to me like im a little kid, because that itself is just childish, and you dont know who i am.

Alright, I'll grant you this: the duel wasn't finished yet. But Maul was still superior. I'm sorry if you think moments of PIS are used in these vs. fights (they're not), but Maul's death was PIS. It's the example of PIS. Ditto for Anakin's little jump in RotS. We measure and argue canon feats, and the novel (which is more canon than your opinion) makes it clear. Maul>Obi-Wan. Maul>Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by mnat801
And your still not getting what im talking about. im not talking about the fight OR the death, im talking about how obi wan DEFEATED maul.

Which had nothing to do with combat ability. Without Qui-Gon there he never could have won. Hell he wouldn't have survived 30 seconds without Qui-Gon there.

Originally posted by mnat801
boxer a knocks boxer b to the ground, and taunts him. but then b gets up quickly, and ko's boxer a while he is taunting, resulting in a win.

It's more like a fencing match, where fencer A beats, disarms and throws away fencer B's sword.

Then while fencer B is lying on the floor weaponless, fencer A stands there taunting him, and fencer B quickly gets the sword of spectator A(without fencer A noticing because he's too busy gloating) and then stabs fencer A with spectator A's sword.

That really wouldn't prove fencer B being superior or even equal to fencer A in any way whatsoever. He just took advantage of fencer A's cockiness. It mean's nothing, except fencer A lost due to cockiness. Nothing to do with skill whatsoever.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Alright, I'll grant you this: the duel wasn't finished yet. But Maul was still superior. I'm sorry if you think moments of PIS are used in these vs. fights (they're not), but Maul's death was PIS. It's the example of PIS. Ditto for Anakin's little jump in RotS. We measure and argue canon feats, and the novel (which is more canon than your opinion) makes it clear. Maul>Obi-Wan. Maul>Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which had nothing to do with combat ability. Without Qui-Gon there he never could have won. Hell he wouldn't have survived 30 seconds without Qui-Gon there.

It's more like a fencing match, where fencer A beats, disarms and throws away fencer B's sword.

Then while fencer B is lying on the floor weaponless, fencer A stands there taunting him, and fencer B quickly gets the sword of spectator A(without fencer A noticing because he's too busy gloating) and then stabs fencer A with spectator A's sword.

That really wouldn't prove fencer B being superior or even equal to fencer A in any way whatsoever. He just took advantage of fencer A's cockiness. It mean's nothing, except fencer A lost due to cockiness. Nothing to do with skill whatsoever.

you say getting the sword of a spectator, but qui gon was part of the duel, and so was his sword. therefore you cant use a spectator for your example.

And his victory over maul didnt, have any thing to do with combat abilities, but it still had something to do with other abilities.

Originally posted by mnat801

you say getting the sword of a spectator, but qui gon was part of the duel, and so was his sword. therefore you cant use a spectator for your example.

So if Qui-Gon and his sword were part of the duel then Obi-Wan won the fight only with Qui-Gon's aid. Without Qui-Gon there you've already agreed Obi-Wan would have lost.

Originally posted by mnat801
And his victory over maul didnt, have any thing to do with combat abilities, but it still had something to do with other abilities.

What other abilities? He took advantage of Maul's cockiness. What ability is that?

Originally posted by mnat801
Like ive said before, i never argued that obi wan was superior to maul, because i agree that in a 1 on 1 that tpm maul would defeat tpm obi wan. what im trying to get across is that the fact that obi wan did defeat maul, whether maul was paying attention at the end or not. and what exactly does PIS mean?

Moments like that aren't factored in to these Vs. threads. They're too random and variable, and too reliant of very specific situations (like the plot obviously, or the setting [reactor room in TPM or the Lazy Lava River ride in RotS) to have any place in a feat-based argument.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ditto for Anakin trying to jump over Obi-Wan in RotS, when a simple hop onto the embankment in front of should have sufficed.

Or worst case scenario he could have just stayed there and it would have been a stalemate.

So yeah there was absolutely no reason for him to get his limbs chopped off except for the convenience of the plot.

Or he could have jumped a8ove him higher, so Keno8i couldn't attack him.

8ut then, it was pretty in line with Anakins arrogance and recklessness, and his rage was clouding his judgement. I'd call it CIS myself.

I think CIS on behalf of the plot (Vader needed to lose) would be PIS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So if Qui-Gon and his sword were part of the duel then Obi-Wan won the fight only with Qui-Gon's aid. Without Qui-Gon there you've already agreed Obi-Wan would have lost.

What other abilities? He took advantage of Maul's cockiness. What ability is that?