Silver Surfer & Thanos vs Flash & Zoom

Originally posted by Philosophía
I don't know why this debate is still going, assuming there are logical, rational persons on both sides.

We have the art depicting the nuclear bomb going off. We have it clearly depicting that none of its population had left the town, at that moment. We have the number of citizens in that town. We have the distance, at which they're carried by Flash.

At which point I ask you, considering there are half a million people - 532000 to be precise - transported after the bomb had gone off, 35 miles away from the town - these being facts - In what Universe is this not faster than light?

That observation should not be controversial in any way whatsoever. Accordingly, all things considered equal, there are several possibilities that would remedy the inherent contradiction present in this scan.

Originally posted by Philosophía
And that's where the debate ends.

It doesn't require calculations. [b]Time is relevant only in judging how many times above lightspeed this feat is performed but fact of the matter is - only a very dumb person would think that this is below lightspeed, I'm afraid to say. [/B]

Like you said, you don't need calculations to just read what the writer is obviously trying to present to us as a feat intended to be accomplished at light speed. If some sort of false absolute fallacy is being forced onto this discussion, it's absurd. It is possible the stated speed is completely wrong. It's also possible that the other stated facts are also utterly wrong.

Pretending that, of the four variables present here: (i) time (.00001 microseconds); (ii) # of people (532,000); (iii) distance (35 miles); and (iv) speed (near light speed), that only the light speed one could be wrong... is ham-fisted ignorance.

To be clear, I'm not saying it can't possibly be a 13 trillion light speed feat. But don't try to convince me that it can't possibly be anything other than a 13 trillion light speed feat. That's retarded.

"Clealry" 753 is so smart. He proceeds to call me a dumbass while having the reading comprehension, counting ability, and spelling of a toddler.

Simply amazing.

Originally posted by 753
oh too bad, now you're throwing an e-tantrum to justify your fanboy cherrypicking and contradiction of author's clealry stated intentions with ad homine attacks on others' intellects. you've just sunk another level in the logic ladder, as the entirety of your post amounts to ad homine logical falacies

Cherry picking? Not at all. I made that a long time ago as a tongue in cheek post. Fanboy? Hardly. It's fanboys and antifanboys like you, who go into every thread throwing a ***** fest whenever something doesn't go your way? Please. Every Flash thread it's the same thing. And if you had the comprehension over a toddler you would know that I said that labeling it a PIS feat isn't a problem to me. It's just slow posters like you who can't argue or debate who try to regurgitate the same thing over and over again to sound right in order to have a point.

What logic do you have noob? Trying to pick one thing and choose another because you are too slow to comprehend it? I haven't sunk anywhere on this forum, I was posting way before you and smoking way more competent posters than you and you have no point, just a ***** fest and it isn't going to work on me. Those far better than you have fallen all the same.

You were the first person to try to throw something my way and now you want to cry when I throw it back at you? Nice try.

My "ad homine" logical "falacies' when you just made a long post insulting me and not proving much of anything. You're a sorry poster and you are getting owned like you always do, deal with it.

Originally posted by 753
the math is too complex? dont make me laugh. your self-proclaimed "brilliance" resides in the fact that you bothered scrutinizing a comic feat on that level, which is superb display of [color=red]geekiness and freetime ( nothign wrong with either), but not of intelect. btw I eat statistical analysis comically more complex than your math on a daily basis.

"Comics aren't supposed to have any consistency"

Wah wah wah.

For someone who has such "intellect" you spelled it wrong. Geeky and free time? (Two separate words, not one genius.) Hardly, you have nothing on me and I have my own company to run. You're on here far more than me posting. I only post here and then. Oh and the formula only took me about a minute to do. I guess for slow people like you it would take you longer though.

It is basic math IMO and a shame people throw it out because they don't want to understand it.

Originally posted by 753
the fact that you cant comprehend english over a very basic doesnt make it invalid

Yes I'm sure that with your great "intelect" can teach me how. I disagree with you, it doesn't show a lack of comprehension, unlike you kid.

Originally posted by 753
"herp stop accepting the author's stated intentions! derp only
I get to choose what happened in a storyline."

Originally posted by 753
BTW the overhelming majority in this forum disagrees with you on this topic, I guess we're all too dumb to follow the amazing formulas you come up with, h1a82.

Uhh... no they don't. We had this before and most agreed, and some disagreed in other threads, and then it split. It depends on who is posting on the thread.

Oh and I've been posting here waaaay before h1a8.

"Overhelming".

How smart you are.

Originally posted by 753
this is just... facepalm

Yes, it is a shame that you are so stupid.

Originally posted by 753
SM made a math mistake, now prove that has any relevance to the topic. your dumbass couldn't even find a example in which it was the narrative - which actually SHOWS US THE AUTHOR'S INTENTIONS - that got the numbers wrong...

anyway, we go with author's clear as day intentions and descroption of what happens

real world fail

Now you resort to insults because you have nothing but a weak crappy argument in the first place. You've done nothing but whine and spell like a three year old and you call me a "dumbass"? My "descroption" works just fine. Genius.

I love how hypocritical you are, just like your weak argument you brought up in the first place.

The writer made a miscalculation. Just like he did in the other example.

Originally posted by 753
or you could accept that at best the feat is unusable, not because it's crazy powahfull!!!!1 but because we cant rely on an mathematic extrapolation that contradicts what the author wanted to portray, which is clear as day. the author never did the math, he was unaware of the real world regarding it and yes, this is comics, and we accept that it is not always consistant.

Actually I did say you could regard it as PIS about 3,000 times. I just used it as an example in a thread. Doesn't change that you tried to pick and choose what you wanted to do.

The author wanted him to save a city in a short amount of time. I made a calculation not an extrapolation. The difference:

extrapolation
[ik-strap-uh-leyt]   Like this word?
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ex·trap·o·late
   [ik-strap-uh-leyt] Show IPA verb, -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture.
2.
Statistics . to estimate (the value of a variable) outside the tabulated or observed range.
3.
Mathematics . to estimate (a function that is known over a range of values of its independent variable) to values outside the known range.

calculation
[kal-kyuh-ley-shuhn]   Like this word?
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cal·cu·la·tion
   [kal-kyuh-ley-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act or process of calculating; computation.
2.
the result or product of calculating: His calculations agree with ours.
3.
an estimate based on the known facts; forecast: Her calculation of the building costs proved quite accurate.

One is using known facts and presenting them, like in the Superman example. The other is making something up from something else. For someone who says they are so smart, you are really making yourself look bad.

Also, it's "mathematical".

Einstein.

Originally posted by 753
the idea that this feat be taken seriously as a 13 trillion the speed of light race when narration says it was under lightspeed is ludicrous

it did happen. it doesnt matter that it's physically or even logically impossible, because superheroes' worlds are inherently physically impossible and often logically contradictory.
yes, poor me and everyone else in the forum with our limited math comprehension, if we were all as smart you than we could herp math derp 13 trillion times the speed of light like you!!!!

Please. That is such a cop out. Both worlds are impossible. Comics are based off of the real world, except for powers that state otherwise. Those who get mad are those who can't compete. Like yourself.

Originally posted by 753
you call into question the stated speed, but offer no evidence whatsoever for why the stated distance or time ellapsed were accurate. since you dont believe the narration, why should we accept the time and distance were correct?

Originally posted by 753
oh it's all about action and numbers right? so what proves the island was that far away from the beach? what's there on those illustrations that proves it?

Originally posted by 753
what proves flash rescued everyone in that millisecond or whatever it was? show me the proof in the images.

The nuke was already on the ground, he couldn't have recused them in that amount of time.

Originally posted by 753
what proves there were those many people there? where are they all shown on panel? can we count them? I say the flash only saved 100 people how is that?

Already answered.

Originally posted by 753
oh the irony
yes, it is obvious and that is why we cant use math extrapolations to represent that feat as something it isnt. they're not legitimate as they contradict author intention and narration. the feat is simply unusable as evidence of anything. it was a blunder, but it most definitely doesnt establish his speed at 13 trillion c

But you can pick and choose what narration you simply want. If it were a simpler example you would have had no problem taking it. The reason that you want to call it an "extrapolation" instead of a "calculation" is because you don't understand where the numbers came from. So it seems like it "came from nowhere". But when your brain has nothing in it, I guess everything comes from nowhere.

You and your great "intelect" lol.

You've been owned like a little girl. Get the **** out of here.

Meh, it comes down to which statement(s) by the 'omniscient' narrator you believe to be more/most canonical... On one hand he said Flash was traveling < light speed. On the other hand he gave us the exact distance Flash traveled -- the exact number of people he transported -- and the exact amount of time it took him accomplish the feat. So using those factoids (speed=distance÷time) it doesn't take a mathologist to come up with figures well in excess of c.

Point being: That feat should be unusable on KMC, as it is entirely subjective, and can be viewed as both a sub-c OR an FTL feat, depending on personal interpretation.

...And it's not like that's Wally's best feat anyway. ermm

Originally posted by kgkg
That scan looks more like a typo than anything else.

3,200 is different than 32,000

If he put 3,2000 I'd say it was a typo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 We don't need PIS. That term is used too loosely enough as it is. This is not complex math either. On its face, when you think about it a little bit, something's clearly wrong. But there's no greater indication one way or another that it was the speed noted, the # of people noted, the distance noted, or the timing noted. Obviusly, at least one of those explicit quantifications is incorrect. But there's no reason it absolutely must be the speed quantification.

From the plain presentation of the comic to a casual reader, that's almost assuredly the wrong one to eliminate.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, it comes down to which statement(s) by the 'omniscient' narrator you believe to be more/most canonical... On one hand he said Flash was traveling < light speed. On the other hand he gave us the exact distance Flash traveled -- the exact number of people he transported -- and the exact amount of time it took him accomplish the feat. So using those factoids (speed=distance÷time) it doesn't take a mathologist to come up with figures well in excess of c.

Point being: That feat should be unusable on KMC, as it is entirely subjective, and can be viewed as both a sub-c OR an FTL feat, depending on personal interpretation.

...And it's not like that's Wally's best feat anyway. ermm

He does have better feats, as I said.

Nice avatar btw.

So if narration states that a whole solar system with many planets was destroyed.. but it only ACTUALLY showed one planet being destroyed in a big explosion... Do we say ooo he only destroyed a planet as we saw nothing else? No. Canon narration is cannon narration. The difference here, is one is SPECIFICALLY talking about speed and how fast he was traveling. It was said multiple times in fact. That is of greater value than extrapolating other facts involving the plot and feat and calculating what it should be. Yes it should be this.. the fact is though... that writers aren't math majors... Comics often times defies conventional science.. so why look that deep into a feat to come up with your OWN view on how fast he was traveling. The writer SAID he was traveling at below light speed TWICE. The art work even matched that speed description more than the 20000000 million times the speed of light. That is it, nothing more should be said on the matter.

Within the realm of comics, the word of the writer/narrator is absolutely incontrovertible. That said, unless you are saying that the very specific time/distance numerics the 'omniscient' narrator gave us were incorrect, then it's certainly not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

Again, it is an entirely subjective feat. Your opinion that Flash was moving < c is no more correct than someone else's opinion that he was moving > c. BOTH viewpoints can be supported by the on panel narration.

I understand the point you and others are making but it leaves out one KEY factor. The writer SPECIFICALLY mentions how fast HE WANTED flash to travel. He even did so twice. There is no controversy on how fast he wanted flash to be traveling. The other narration involves other circumstances around the feat and plot which NEED to be extrapolated on further in order to come up with a number on how fast he SHOULD'VE been traveling. Those are two distinct levels of proof. The best way I can put it is this way.. one is factual evidence lets call it DNA.. the other is circumstancial evidence. There really can't be any denying that. One is very clear on how fast the writer was wanting flash to travel for that feat. The other takes extrapolation and math to figure out. There is a clear cut difference in levels of proof. Granted, it still doesn't make it clear cut one way or the other. But to compare the two as the same level of evidence isn't correct imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Within the realm of comics, the word of the writer/narrator is absolutely incontrovertible. That said, unless you are saying that the very specific time/distance numerics the 'omniscient' narrator gave us were incorrect, then it's certainly not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

We have a town whose name is given - the town actually exists in the real world. We just judge by what is shown - the nuclear bomb explodes. After this takes place, the hundreds of thousands of people are transported to safety, unharmed. The distance they're transported to is clearly depicted as tens of miles - which is only logical, given that it's a nuclear warhead.

Is this succesion of events which Flash does not faster than light? I mean logically speaking, Galan. We just look. As in literally, basic understanding of what's taking place, without having to take out a calculator.

We ignore specifications about the time it takes to do the feat. Or the specified distance at which he takes them. Or the contradictory given speed.

How is this not a faster than lightspeed feat?

The narrator said "a breadth under Light speed" So we can take that as near enough Light Speed..

So either way its a feat at the very least just about Light Speed, possibly many many times the speed of Light. But he didnt just travel, or go from A to B..

He rescued so many people in a milisecond, and took them all a safe enough distance from a nuclear explosion. That requires thought, cordination, reflexes, movement, all at such an incredible speed that the world would seem frozen to him.

My point is, even if you take the feat to be at Light speed, it was seriously impressive. Lets see if there are instances of Surfer or Thanos, thinking, moving, maneuvoring and coordinating at such an incredible speed, instead of just travelling from A to B at said speed. And from there we can carry on the debate.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand the point you and others are making but it leaves out one KEY factor. The writer SPECIFICALLY mentions how fast HE WANTED flash to travel. He even did so twice. There is no controversy on how fast he wanted flash to be traveling. The other narration involves other circumstances around the feat and plot which NEED to be extrapolated on further in order to come up with a number on how fast he SHOULD'VE been traveling. Those are two distinct levels of proof. The best way I can put it is this way.. one is factual evidence lets call it DNA.. the other is circumstancial evidence. There really can't be any denying that. One is very clear on how fast the writer was wanting flash to travel for that feat. The other takes extrapolation and math to figure out. There is a clear cut difference in levels of proof. Granted, it still doesn't make it clear cut one way or the other. But to compare the two as the same level of evidence isn't correct imo.

35 miles one way?
532,000 individual people?
Flash carried 1, sometimes 2 people, at a time?
It took him .00001 microseconds?

Those are all ridiculously specific values. Considering Joe Kelly's portfolio, it's hard to believe he just pulled numerics like that out of his ass without putting any thought into them. My God, you can tell it's an FTL feat just by looking at those numbers. No math involved.

Anywho, it's just not cut and dry one way or the other = all I'm saying.

Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
We cut out every numerical data specified by the author.

We have a town whose name is given - the town actually exists in the real world. We just judge by what is shown - the nuclear bomb explodes. After this takes place, the hundreds of thousands of people are transported to safety, unharmed. The distance they're transported to is clearly depicted as tens of miles - which is only logical, given that it's a nuclear warhead.

Is this succesion of events which Flash does not faster than light? I mean logically speaking, Galan. We just look. As in literally, basic understanding of what's taking place, without having to take out a calculator.

We ignore specifications about the time it takes to do the feat. Or the specified distance at which he takes them. Or the contradictory given speed.

How is this not a faster than lightspeed feat?

Personally, I think Flash HAD to have been going > c to accomplish that feat because it couldn't have been done in that amount of time if he were moving < c. However, it's not something I would argue simply because of it's subjectivity.

Originally posted by Galan007
My God, you can tell it's an FTL feat just by looking at those numbers. No math involved.

Flash must have lent the explosion some superspeed to make his job harder. What a showoff. vin

No, silly. All those people had already materialized on the mountainside before they were hit by the bomb's powa *thx Flash*.

The mushroom cloud was just a gigantic firework after-show for them. biscuits

Originally posted by Philosophía
We cut out every numerical data specified by the author.

We have a town whose name is given - the town actually exists in the real world. We just judge by what is shown - the nuclear bomb explodes. After this takes place, the hundreds of thousands of people are transported to safety, unharmed. The distance they're transported to is clearly depicted as tens of miles - which is only logical, given that it's a nuclear warhead.

Is this succesion of events which Flash does not faster than light? I mean logically speaking, Galan. We just look. As in literally, basic understanding of what's taking place, without having to take out a calculator.

We ignore specifications about the time it takes to do the feat. Or the specified distance at which he takes them. Or the contradictory given speed.

How is this not a faster than lightspeed feat?

That's just my take on it though.

Also Kurupt showing one planet blowing up could be for dramatic effect, but if the narration said only one planet blew up and it shows ten, it would be a different story.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So many of us agree, we just know arguing it is a pain. I do agree though. Just like if there were a feat of Superman "pulling the Earth" and it said he "pulled all 5lbs" of it. People would immediately say it was an error because the Earth surely weighs more than 5 lbs. But with this they don't want to, and the reason is because the math doesn't hit most readers until they look at it closely. So many would rather say "comics aren't about math".

Let's not pretend that this scene was especially catered to the "true fan" who isn't fooled by plain English and utilizes a shocking tolerance for high numbers to get to the nugget of gold hidden between the lines. If a comic wants to hit you over the head with the enormity of a feat, they'll clonk you over the head with it. It wasn't enough that Savage Hulk braced a mountain over his head, they had to plaster a number on the cover. Planet busting isn't relegated to a small corner panel, it's accorded full page or double page spreads.

Comics are about the exhausting overuse of exclamation points. They're not about the patient interpretation of coded fine print. And this isn't even an example of fine print. It's just a mistake. And it's completely counter-intuitive to choose to stretch out that mistake to its highest possible limit over simply shrugging your shoulders and accepting the simplest interpretation.

If anybody thinks 13 trillion times the speed of light was the true intention, fine. Just remember what you had to go through to get to that conclusion. I personally found it tortuous, convoluted and ultimately inane. Apparently, to some, that's supposed to be an indication that you're reading it correctly. Forgive my skepticism.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, silly. All those people had already materialized on the mountainside before they were hit by the bomb's powa *thx Flash*.

The mushroom cloud was just a gigantic firework after-show for them. biscuits

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers

Originally posted by Philosophía
I don't know why this debate is still going, assuming there are logical, rational persons on both sides.

[center]

We have the art depicting the nuclear bomb going off. We have it clearly depicting that none of its population had left the town, at that moment. We have the number of citizens in that town. We have the distance, at which they're carried by Flash.

At which point I ask you, considering there are half a million people - 532000 to be precise - transported after the bomb had gone off, 35 miles away from the town - these being facts - In what Universe is this not faster than light?

And that's where the debate ends.

It doesn't require calculations. [b]Time is relevant only in judging how many times above lightspeed this feat is performed but fact of the matter is - only a very dumb person would think that this is below lightspeed, I'm afraid to say.[/center] [/B]

I think this is a garbage feat. Because it is based purely on your opinion of which author-given figure is the correct one. I would ban it from the forum just like sentry/MM is, because using it requires you to renounce the credibility of the showing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh-huh. For the people that don't realize what I was pointing out by mentioning a "FTL mushroom cloud," let's examine it. Between the flash of the initial detonation and the formation of a mushroom cloud of dust, only .00001 microsecond had elapsed. We know this because some of the people hadn't even been saved by the second panel. Only by the third.

.00001 microsecond = .01 nanosecond = 1/100th of a nanosecond. Light travels 1 foot in 1 nanosecond.

So I'm supposed to believe that the dust particles forming the mushroom cloud traveled tens of thousands of feet into the sky and ballooned out -- when a beam of light itself would only have traveled 1/10th of an inch in that same time frame? You're telling me the dust traveled millions of times light speed?

Whatever, of course it did! The time cited couldn't possibly be wrong. Only the speed cited was wrong. No other number cited could possibly have been wrong either...

... just like how Chongjin, North Korea, reportedly has a population of 327,000 people (not 532,000) in a country notorious for exaggerating it's own development. But, whatever! The 532,000 population cited couldn't possibly be wrong either. Only the speed.

Because if I don't think the speed is wrong, somehow, I'm being ghey about it and just hatin... yeah.

crackers

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can't even tell if you answered my [b](i) scenario. Make no mistake, I've got several more.

Anyway, others have pointed out that you're assuming that only the specifically quantified speed must have been incorrect. Why not the specifically quantified number of people involved? Or the specifically quantified timing of the explosion? Or the specifically quantified distance they were set down away from the explosion? Or the specifically quantified # of people Flash was actually carrying per trip? [/B]

It doesn't matter as Flash saved all those people BEFORE the radiation got to them. Radiation from a nuclear bomb moves at the speed of light. So who cares what numbers were wrong?

^ ... superheated air and radioactive fallout (irradiated dust) is what really kills people. Not radiation waves.

Even if you can't understand that... just think about Flash safely setting people down 35 miles away from the blast. Safely. 35 miles away.

They're safe. Only 35 miles away.

Whereas this "killer light speed radiation" would travel 186,000 miles/sec. Think about it.