Norway Bombings

Started by Deadline4 pages

Originally posted by inimalist
sure, Muslim terrorism is more likely in other places, the entirety of my point is that a carbomb in front of government buildings in Norway is consistent with the MO of a large number of "types" of terrorists, one such group being islamists. until details of the shooting started coming out, there was really no way to guess who it was based solely on the bombing, so it is hardly surprising people jumped on the idea of it be islamists (of course, most should have said they didn't know rather than reporting their "gut instinct"😉

though, of course, this is no excuse for the "experts" who kept saying it was AQ even after the media had released the demographic info about the shooter (though, they should have known after the info about him targeting the labour party specifically).

Agreed.

actually, just thinking about it now, you'd almost expect some form of law enforcement to be targeted by right wingers, or something related to taxes, than just generic government buildings, but that is probably more to do with an American over European perspective

fascinating read, looking at Breivik from the perspective of the Turner Diaries:

http://amongthetruthers.com/2011/07/on-anders-breivik-and-the-turner-diaries-how-a-2011-norwegian-massacre-echoes-a-1978-american-novel/

for instance, this:

The idea that right-wing extremists such as Pierce, McVeigh and Breivik are simply the Christian version of Osama bin Laden is entirely wrong, in other words. Islamist terrorists take (misguided) inspiration from their religious texts in the act of slaughter — explicitly linking their motivation to religion. Mass murdering terrorists with a Christian background (and this includes the IRA, incidentally) typically do no such thing, even if the religious-inspired themes of martyrdom and purification tend to animate their doctrines. Not that this makes mass murder any less hideous or destructive — but it does show it to be a different kind of animal.

Some good news, the count of the dead has been reduced to 68 at Utøya, and increased t o 8 in Oslo. The first count of 84 was due to rough estimates in the middle of the chaos (and they wanted to get the severity of the situation out to the public, who were speculating in about 10 dead at the time).

YouTube video

ermm

Do we know why he did this? I still can't comprehend how someone can kill civilians like this... especially children.

As Aveline said: "Some people are just broken." 🙁

One of them made a passing comment on his cow-lick. He just went apeshit after that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Do we know why he did this? I still can't comprehend how someone can kill civilians like this... especially children.

As Aveline said: "Some people are just broken." 🙁

he, uh, left a 1500 page manifesto detailing why...

broken down, he felt alienated from a Norwegian society that is open, multicultural and democratic, and saw his act as a necessary evil that would alert the public to the errors of such a society.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, just thinking about it now, you'd almost expect some form of law enforcement to be targeted by right wingers, or something related to taxes, than just generic government buildings, but that is probably more to do with an American over European perspective

I've noticed that historically, people choose their tactics based on politics with anarcho-communists and socialists incurring the least amount of civilian casualties (except in situations involving ground wars like the Russian civil war and WWII). If you see sloppy bombings, suicide or otherwise, think right-wing christians or muslims. If you see precise attacks for maximum casualties or chemical weapons, think white supremacists or Jewish Kahanists. If you see sloppy bombings of financial institutions, those would be radical liberals or communists. A fishy assassination is a government hit job. Socialists and anarcho-communists are known for carrying out a series of surgical assassinations, typically against world leaders, business leaders, and bankers in rapid succession and in such a seemingly random and disorganized manner that governments can't react without overreacting.
Regardless of the methodology or the ideology though, the sad and scary thing is that in almost every case, terrorism works. Surgical assassinations and violent strikes created social safety nets, labor laws, and World War I, Government assassinations of presidents and civil rights leaders gave us a pussified, isolated, and paranoid presidency. Flying two planes into the world trade center caused superficial unity and racism clouding the government accomplishing nearly all of bin laden's goals for him.
If terrorism didn't work, there'd be no terrorists.
It's why I'm glad that for now at least, Norway seems to be doing the opposite of what Breivik and whatever possible terrorist cell he works for want.

Speaking of, I'd be really interested in finding out (other than the Gellar/Gaffney connection) if square goatee boy had any friends who served in the Serbian armed forces.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
One of them made a passing comment on his cow-lick. He just went apeshit after that.

msn-oh Well I guess that's understandable...

Originally posted by inimalist
he, uh, left a 1500 page manifesto detailing why...

broken down, he felt alienated from a Norwegian society that is open, multicultural and democratic, and saw his act as a necessary evil that would alert the public to the errors of such a society.

❌ What a stupid reason to pull a stunt like that. Not that there is any good reason to...

Originally posted by TacDavey
❌ What a stupid reason to pull a stunt like that. Not that there is any good reason to...

Laurence Wright will talk a lot about humiliation being a major factor in influencing this type of act, and through that perspective, you might be able to explain this man's motivations as though he were humiliated to see Muslims taking "Norwegian" jobs, humiliation by the lack of a social will to enforce his ideas of what his country should look like, etc.

I think the theory is much better suited for explaining Islamic terror, and then, only a small fraction of it. I think what might be a better answer is looking at perceptions of belonging in a meaningful way to society and one's own perception of how much control they have over their ability to belong.

So, if you have a low sense of belonging, but, you feel that it is under your control to integrate, there would be less reason to act violently (ie: the reasons you aren't part of society are the choices you have made). However, if you feel like you aren't part of society because of the actions of others, or that you are a victim of social change (ie: I am not part of Norwegian society because it has changed on me), I feel at least, this would motivate violent action.

just some caveats before I rant on this issue:

1) these are matters of individual perception, not of reality. Thus, someone could feel alienated from a society where, in fact, they are part of a majority ethnic, political, religious, etc, group, even though in reality they may, simply by belonging to such groups, be much better integrated into society than are individuals of marginal/minority groups

2) social alienation can occur because society changes on groups of people, and in reality, they can become victims of changing times, the most poignant example being civil rights in the states, where conservative members of society literally had their country change in fundamental ways they were not supportive of. Therefore, the perception that society has rejected you might not be inaccurate, what is more important is how one perceives their ability to do something about it (do they think "I should change" or "I need to change society"?) [the terms in psych are "locus of control" or "perceived control" iirc, but its not my field]

3) many people feel both alienated from society and a victim of social norms. In fact, it is probably something everyone feels from time to time. Therefore, there is something else that I don't think anyone who has theorized on terrorism or random violence has been able to pin down. Other theories, like Wright's or those that focus on emasculation, also fail to identify this variable, as there are far more people that feel humiliated by oppressive powers than there are those who are willing to do violence because of that humiliation.

so, what is it then? One of the things that is often overlooked in all this is the role of an accepting social group. I actually tend to believe that the same types of things that motivate people to join gangs and cults also motivates people to adopt personas sort of wrapped in terrible ideas. And this isn't to say that people must belong to a literal group of people, but rather, they adopt a persona defined by a specific group of people or modestly coherent ideology. So like, the columbine killers, they weren't part of a "group" of people, but they did identify with an ideology of this sort of anti-life, depressed hatred, or the Norwegian killer, came to identify with extremist racial and nationalist ideas as a defining point in who he was as a person.

so like, my "algorithm" for how someone gets to this point:

- a feeling of being isolated from or rejected from mainstream society.

- the sense that this isolation is a result of society rejecting you for a particular reason, or that the isolation is not something which you have the ability to control. This creates a sense of victimization in the individual, and a sense of confusion about why the world is as it is.

- the appropriation of an identity that fills 2 roles
1) it gives you a sense of belonging to "something" or at least defines you as an individual. (maybe the best example of this is how being depressed is such a cliche thing in modern culture. This might just reflect the fact that depressed people can cope in some way by defining themselves as depressed, thus giving some conclusive perception of "self"😉
2) confirms biases you have against mainstream society (if you think your government is too oppressive, aligning with a group that defines itself as an answer to that oppression will give you a greater sense of control). This is one of the major issues, because it is through this mechanism that one would begin to see the society they don't feel part of as literally evil. Rather than simply feeling rejected because you don't mesh with various social norms, you come to see those norms as evil. An overwhelming evil you have no power to stop that is out to destroy people like you. From an individual psychological perspective, this stance actually prevents issues like cognitive dissonance and other unpleasant cognitive states. It is entirely counter-productive to civil society, but to the person, identifying in such a way, and seeing the world in such clear evil vs good terms makes the world a much more understandable place.

- thinking something must be done to reverse this evil. and this is where violence becomes so hard to explain, because it is what motivates some members of the KKK to hold rallies and protest and others, who literally have the same social/political/etc background, to form lynch mobs. Clearly developmental factors will come into play, as various conditions in one's upbringing will play a role in their position toward violence. To me, this doesn't go far enough in explanation, because it would almost predict that there is a formula of development that produces specific behaviours. The best counter example to this type of thinking, aside from basic logic, is the fact that although many serial killers were abused as children, astoundingly few children who were beaten become serial killers, and in fact, many go on to reject that form of behaviour in their adult lives. Personally, I think the mediating factor (not in parental abuse, but in why some people become violent) is the idea of "tolerance of ambiguity". This is something that is thought to be at least partly genetic, and essentially is how willing you are to allow things to be ambiguous. So, even if you think that Mexican illegal immigration is an evil that is bound to sink America, or even worse, if you believe the conspiratorial ideas about Aztlan or whatever, with a high tolerance for ambiguity, you are unlikely to become violent about it, because you can accept a little bit of evil. You might still vote or rally against it, but you don't see it as so inherently terrible that you have to kill it. On the flip side, if you are a militant in Egypt, and you see Western influence as corrupting Muslim society, and you have a very low tolerance for ambiguity, you will start to see even the people who are not fighting with you as being the same evil that you wish to destroy.

I also accept that there is a bit of a contradiction between having an external locus of control (I am a victim of society) and being motivated to change it (I can change society). These two concepts probably balance in some way, likely mediated by tolerance for ambiguity. If you feel that you are the victim of society's evil, but also that the evil society represents must be destroyed, there is actually no real contradiction, except at a semantic level. And often the specific grievances a violent person has can be identified by the victims they choose. On 9-11, AQ attacked symbols of Western economic and military power, the Norwegian attacker targeted youth of a political organization that supports Norway as an open society, etc. wow, over 8000 characters... I should wrap it up here...

actually, just one thing because I'm pedantic. When I talk about what motivates people to join cults and gangs, I am certainly not saying it is all the same, or that these groups themselves have the same motivations to commit violence or anything like that. Just that these types of groups prey on people who are at these points in their life, where they are questioning their own identity, or lack the sense of belonging to a coherent social group, etc. gangs, cults, terrorist/extremist groups give that type of identity the person is seeking

lol, i know, tldr

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I've noticed that historically, people choose their tactics based on politics with anarcho-communists and socialists incurring the least amount of civilian casualties (except in situations involving ground wars like the Russian civil war and WWII).

yes and no. I suppose my first point would be that anarchist terrorism of this sort is long over. It had its heyday in the late 19th early 20th century, and true, was mostly targeted at political leaders, however, the initial concept of targeting civilians because they support the enemy does come from Anarchist literature, the French anarchists iirc.

I know I've posted this lecture before, but it is a favorite of mine:

YouTube video

Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you see sloppy bombings, suicide or otherwise, think right-wing christians or muslims.

actually, the heaviest use of suicide bombings has been by the Marxist Tamil Tigers. A suicide attack in a NATO nation, sure, in the Arab peninsula, of course, but in places like India, I doubt it. Further, Buddhists have used suicide as a form of protest for at least decades (non-violent suicide, but I would argue still comparable)

additionally, all terrorist types have sloppy bombings. To claim this is a Muslim/christian/etc phenomenon is to not follow the issue outside of newspaper headlines

Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you see precise attacks for maximum casualties or chemical weapons, think white supremacists or Jewish Kahanists.

white supremacists almost never attack just random civilians for maximum casualties. Those types tend to be just the criminally insane, who shoot up malls and schools. They do go for casualties, but their targets are explicitly chosen for being symbols of what they see as social evil.

what chemical attacks are you thinking of? I can only think of Aum Shinrikyo or the Anthrax attacks, and neither have either Jewish or supremacist connections...

Originally posted by Darth Jello
If you see sloppy bombings of financial institutions, those would be radical liberals or communists.

most liberal terrorism these days is eco-terrorism, where universities and scientific institutions/corporations have been targeted.

historically, sure, anarchists and communists have attacked wall street and such, but symbols of economic power are actually targets for almost all types of terrorist organizations. It represents a fundamental part of the society they are rebelling against. Similarly, government buildings are the same way. This is why there was no way to determine the demographic identity of the Norway killer until after information about the island shooting had been released.

Specific financial institutions, sure. Like, the IRS is most likely to be attacked by right wing extremists, whereas infrastructure involving oil is most likely Muslim.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
A fishy assassination is a government hit job.

or anyone else, including random violence

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Socialists and anarcho-communists are known for carrying out a series of surgical assassinations, typically against world leaders, business leaders, and bankers in rapid succession and in such a seemingly random and disorganized manner that governments can't react without overreacting.

in Europe a century ago, sure.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Regardless of the methodology or the ideology though, the sad and scary thing is that in almost every case, terrorism works. Surgical assassinations and violent strikes created social safety nets, labor laws, and World War I, Government assassinations of presidents and civil rights leaders gave us a pussified, isolated, and paranoid presidency. Flying two planes into the world trade center caused superficial unity and racism clouding the government accomplishing nearly all of bin laden's goals for him.

terrorism works if the only motivation is to increase violence. 9/11 wasn't a success, as OBL thought America would crumble like the Soviets in Afghanistan. Much anarchist and leftist terrorism hasn't worked, as no anarchist revolutions formed in their wake, and animal rights were won by rational political discussion.

I would disagree categorically if you are claiming terrorism "works". If you are saying terrorism gets a reaction from those it targets, often a violent one, well then sure, but in many cases, that violence and the results of that violence are not what the actors had planned at all.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
If terrorism didn't work, there'd be no terrorists.

I don't believe this. Terrorism, as I tried to point out in my last post, has almost nothing to do with being a tactic chosen because of its effectiveness (and lets not confuse asymmetric military tactics with terrorism), but rather reflects the inner turmoil of people who feel that society is evil.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
It's why I'm glad that for now at least, Norway seems to be doing the opposite of what Breivik and whatever possible terrorist cell he works for want.

Breivik is almost certainly not part of a cell. Or rather, the plan seems to play out much more like other independent attackers. The internet probably allowed him to reach other like minded individuals who may have had some role in the planning, but his claim that he is from an interconnected group of right wing extremists reeks of bravado in my mind. It would be like how Tim McVeigh probably had some type of support from Christian Militias, but those militias were probably not an active terrorist cell.

It will be interesting to see though. My thoughts are that Europe is about to get the largest case of internet censorship/monitoring in Western history, and there will certainly be flagrant abuses of innocent people through it.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Speaking of, I'd be really interested in finding out (other than the Gellar/Gaffney connection) if square goatee boy had any friends who served in the Serbian armed forces.

square goatee boy?

EDIT: oops, I thought Breivik was clean shaven. Ya, I wouldn't be surprised at that connection at all. Aren't guns highly restricted in Norway?

I love the attempt to use World War I as an example of terrorism 'working'. If there was any ethnic group that very quickly ended up thinking "Oh SHIT we should not have done that!" it is the Serbians, who got categorically annihilated by the Austrians in one of the first 'modern day' examples of ethnic cleansing. It's a straight out example of terrorism causing the absolute opposite effect to what was desired.

You'd do better to check your facts, DJ- what you say is very often riddled with huge inaccuracies and lazy connections.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I love the attempt to use World War I as an example of terrorism 'working'. If there was any ethnic group that very quickly ended up thinking "Oh SHIT we should not have done that!" it is the Serbians, who got categorically annihilated by the Austrians in one of the first 'modern day' examples of ethnic cleansing. It's a straight out example of terrorism causing the absolute opposite effect to what was desired.

You'd do better to check your facts, DJ- what you say is very often riddled with huge inaccuracies and lazy connections.

But it all worked out in the end, right? 🙁

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I love the attempt to use World War I as an example of terrorism 'working'. If there was any ethnic group that very quickly ended up thinking "Oh SHIT we should not have done that!" it is the Serbians, who got categorically annihilated by the Austrians in one of the first 'modern day' examples of ethnic cleansing. It's a straight out example of terrorism causing the absolute opposite effect to what was desired.

You'd do better to check your facts, DJ- what you say is very often riddled with huge inaccuracies and lazy connections.

Tito had far more success during WW2 in fact

I picked up a book called "violent politics" a couple of years ago, fantastic read! Looks more at people that are defined as "revolutionaries", but that is a subtle distinction at best, totally recommend it. I had never heard of Tito or the Vietnamese resistance to the French prior to America's invasion (Vietnam is insane, what is with America and picking wars in the stupidest places to wage war?)

Ok, I'm pretty embarrassed about forgetting about the Tamil Tigers, the pioneers of the suicide bomb.

Osama Bin Laden's goals were to increase the price of oil, get the US military out of Saudi Arabia, and to destroy Israel with a secondary goal of weakening and destabilizing the US. It's ten years later and 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

Wasn't part of the reasoning for the assassination of Franz Ferdinand to provoke a war so Serbia could reclaim Bosnia-Herzegovina and prevent Austria from organizing a pan-slavic kingdom to challenge the recently emboldened Serbs? Mission accomplished though I shouldn't have lumped them with anarchists since they were radical nationalists. I always jumble them up with the haymarket rioters for some reason.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Osama Bin Laden's goals were to increase the price of oil, get the US military out of Saudi Arabia, and to destroy Israel with a secondary goal of weakening and destabilizing the US. It's ten years later and 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

OBL has actually been pretty much all over the board with his desires about 9-11. depending on which quotes you go by, he was either expecting America to be passive (like in their response to the embassy bombings) or to engage in wars that would crush them like the soviet union, which OBL totally believed his arab mujaheddin accomplished (independant of all the other problems the USSR had).

depending on how you want to read his theories, OBL was either the greatest criminal mastermind this side of lex luthor, or he was crazy and totally had no grasp of geo-politics.

however, in all of this, his main prediction was that, if America got involved in a war in afghanistan, it would crush them as it did the soviets, which has not played out. OBL wanted to drag them into a war, but, believing his own hype (following the soviet afghan campaign, the mythology around OBL was that he forced the soviet union to collapse [sic]), he though he could beat America in Afghanistan. This was proven to be false, as America all but destroyed AQ in the first weeks of the Afghan campaign, and only failed to destroy them entirely because they tried to get the "northern alliance" to do the fighting for them.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Wasn't part of the reasoning for the assassination of Franz Ferdinand to provoke a war so Serbia could reclaim Bosnia-Herzegovina and prevent Austria from organizing a pan-slavic kingdom to challenge the recently emboldened Serbs? Mission accomplished though I shouldn't have lumped them with anarchists since they were radical nationalists. I always jumble them up with the haymarket rioters for some reason.

possibly, but having the serbs be ethnically cleansed and waiting for Tito to provide the military coordination against the Nazis that would give the serbs their own home was not part of that plan.

I think the distinction here would be whether the immediate plans of the actors came to pass as a result of their actions, or as a result of greater historical trends. For instance, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand provided a pretext for war that most European nations (especially their populace) wanted. However, to claim that it had any relation to the independence military movement that formed during WW2 under Tito, that would eventually produce a Yugoslavia independent in many ways even from the soviet union, seems like a stretch. I tend to agree with Ush here, maybe the Serbs wanted more violence, but they had no understanding of what that violence would bring.

I'll admit my lack of knowledge about the Serbia issue though. I really am only familiar with Tito, though from what I have read, I haven't seen anything that shows the Black Hand got what they wanted out of it...

I could totally be wrong though

EDIT: my ww1 knowledge comes almost exclusively from this book: http://www.amazon.com/World-War-One-Short-History/dp/0465013686 which I recommend, but might not give a full account. (in fact, the author admits it isn't nearly a full account)

http://tribune.com.pk/story/231697/reenactment-norway-shooter-showed-no-remorse-at-massacre-site/