Originally posted by truejedi
there is no game, me saying proof is when you would present a reason why you think that Yoda would beat Mace "Every time". (Every time being the key words here)
No TJ, the key word here is "proof". You or I cannot provide PROOF of either one of these. Hell you or I couldn't provide "proof" that Mace Windu defeats R2D2 every time. Evidence? Yes. Proof? NOPE! That's what I was saying when I said 'game'. Understand?
Now the evidence that I have has been layed out before. Yoda; 900 year old master - greatest foe the darkenss has ever known - avatar of the light - disarmed Sidious - humiliated Dooku on a planet "steeped in the dark side" even though he (Dooku) took a serious cheap shot at Yoda and had a warhead ready to annihilate, is just better than Mace Windu, who is Dooku's equal by most measures. So proof? No. Evidence? Yes.
While Mace Windu is one incredibly badass Jedi (one of the probably 4 or 5 greatest of all-time), Yoda's attunement and experience are the trump cards here.
I think people are forgetting that Obi was far improved as of ROTS then he was in PM or AOTC... For God's sake he even changed his style during those times. Proof of such is how he was about to use soresu quite effectively against Anakin.. who as we know.. beat Dooku... I don't think Dooku beats Obi very quickly at all.. In fact, I think it would be a decently long fight which would enable Maul to beat Qui-Gon and come help with Dooku. I also agree with the people saying Mace vs. Yoda is a very good fight. Lets not forget ... Dooku stalemated Yoda AFTER taking out both Anakin and Yoda... Dooku and Mace were said to have had great sparring sessions in the past and were very close in skill. Thus, I just can't see Yoda walking all over Mace... In face, I would give Yoda a 6/10 there.
Can't see how anyone would think Dooku wouldn't do anything but dominate ROTS Obi-Wan, considering that Dooku already dominated ROTS Obi-Wan.
Plus, mentioning how Kenobi was stalemating Vader (until Vader tried playing acrobat and got his shit ruined) and using that to pivot into "Anakin beat Dooku" doesn't really fly when the Anakin that destroyed Dooku was replaced by the emotional wreck that was Vader by the end of the same film.
Still can't see Yoda beating either Dooku or Mace quickly enough for team two to take the upper hand here, while either Maul or Obi-Wan (depending on who fights who) is going to get neutralized very quickly.
The facts are these and there is no disputing them..... BOTH Kenobi and Anakin were emotional wrecks.. Do people forget that Kenobi was having to kill a brother.. almost like a son? Anakin wasn't the only one dealing with conflict. In fact, he was more sure of his choice than I reckon Obi one was of having to kill Anakin. People like to use this emotional wreck card to justify why Anakin lost... the narration make it clear why he lost.. it was because Kenobi style makes it so that he eventually wears down his opponent with ultra good defense and looks for an opening. This was no quick short fight where Anakin got owned. in fact, it was a long drawn out battle.
People claiming that Dooku beat Kenobi easily...are forgetting that he used the force to do so.. not sabers.. The comment I was referring to was somebody saying Dooku with kill Kenobi in sabers very quickly.. which opinion couldn't be further from the truth. Kenobi in a sabers only duel would do quite well against Dooku.
Dooku STALEMATED yoda.. AFTER dispatching of Kenobi and Anakin... Mace and Dooku were considered close to equals when they were both Jedi's... Thus to believe Yoda would be Mace 10/10 is bordering on stupidity... People are also forgetting that Mace beat Sids... While Yoda could only disarm him, but really, it ended in a stalemate. Mace beats sids.... Yes Vapaad helped.. but lets not forget... Vapaad is also channeling your OWN darkside feelings and increasing your power and skill. So it's not just a matter of using your opponents darkside force for a loop of sorts, you can also use darkside feelings within you to amp your skills. Point is, there is NOTHING is the star wars universe when you look at who fought who and feats that should lead anybody to the conclusion that Yoda beats Mace 10/10
Anakin at his best > Obi-Wan. By far. Full stop. In your opinion, Obi-Wan can "do quite well" against Dooku in sabers. Anakin--on screen-- trounced that same Count with ease. It really doesn't matter whether or not Kenobi was at his best when he fought Vader; the drop in showings affected Anakin far more (going from easily beating Dooku to barely stalemating Kenobi) than it did Kenobi.
The only way your opinion on Obi-Wan/Dooku makes sense is if you think Obi-Wan would also give Yoda a decent run. By your own words, Yoda could only manage a stalemate against Dooku (everything taken into account). IMO, it's pretty clear that given that the ease with which Dooku disarmed Kenobi in AOTC, and given that both Anakin and Obi-Wan combined couldn't take down Dooku in sabers during ROTS (prior to Obi-Wan being incapacitated and Anakin going all "IN TEH ZONE!!!"😉, I can't really see how Obi-Wan's anywhere being a peer of Dooku's.
I won't speak too much on Mace/Yoda, but I will say that using Yoda/Dooku as a baseline doesn't make much sense, either, unless you think that Dooku=Palpatine. Yoda also stalemated the latter during ROTS. Dooku would make Yoda work (IE the fight wouldn't be short), but I couldn't see Dooku (or Mace, given that he and the Count are about equal, all things considered) beating Yoda.
@KT - You mean he stalemated Yoda by causing a distraction that allowed him to flee? Yeah, I suppose. Although I wouldn't brag about that if I was Dooku. Stalemating can be done several different ways, and does not always, or even usually, indicate that two combatants or participants are equal. That's a major logic fail if you assume otherwise. Moreover, he couldn't outduel Yoda on Vjun (with a major darkside boost) even while trying to kill Yoda who was trying to save someone else from nailing the ground. Cheap-shot + planet steeped in the darkside and he STILL COULDN'T BEAT HIM. And yes Maces's Vaapad played a MAJOR ***king role in his victory over Sidious. That advantage would be FAR less evident against Yoda, avatar of the light. Not to mention the fact that Yoda regularly outsparred Mace Windu. While I admit that a sparring contest leaves some things open for debate, it is evidence nonetheless. While I readily agree that Mace would give Yoda one hell of a fight, Yoda's power, experience, and attunement to the Force will allow him to prevail each and every time.
Originally posted by Harbinger
Can't see how anyone would think Dooku wouldn't do anything but dominate ROTS Obi-Wan, considering that Dooku already dominated ROTS Obi-Wan.Plus, mentioning how Kenobi was stalemating Vader (until Vader tried playing acrobat and got his shit ruined) and using that to pivot into "Anakin beat Dooku" doesn't really fly when the Anakin that destroyed Dooku was replaced by the emotional wreck that was Vader by the end of the same film.
Still can't see Yoda beating either Dooku or Mace quickly enough for team two to take the upper hand here, while either Maul or Obi-Wan (depending on who fights who) is going to get neutralized very quickly.
It has been years since I've read the ROTS novelization, but watching the Duel aboard the Invisible Hand onscreen, both Kenobi and Skywalker came out on the attack using secondary forms (Ataru & Shien). Neither of them used their preferred forms. If the argument is made that Anakin wasn't in the "zone," why is the same not made for Obi-Wan. Dooku dominated them both before Kenobi was removed and Anakin could revert to an all-out Djem So barage.
Now, that's just by watching the movie. I don't remember the novelization.
To me, in a one-on-one duel, Kenobi is not going to just charge, Ataru style, and get incapacitated by Dooku's Force powers. I think saying Dooku will eliminate Kenobi in seconds makes no sense. I agree that Dooku is bettter than Kenobi, but able to own the greatest Soresu practitioner in Jedi history, preposterous.
That's my opinion of course. Words from a crazy man. Take it as you wish.
As for this thread:
I feel Yoda would delegate Maul to battle Qui-Gon Jinn, and Obi-Wan to battle Dooku. Then he himself would engage Windu.
Even if Mace's Vapaad may not have an advantage against Yoda, an avatar of light, the duel between them would be long and arduous.
As for Jinn and Maul, if Maul decides to go defensive and isn't bothered to press the attack, that duel would also be relatively long.
Then Dooku vs Kenobi. To me, I see Kenobi holding Dooku off long enough for Maul to finish Jinn. Then Kenobi and Maul battle Dooku while Yoda finishes with Windu. Then it's a curbstomp.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does anyone suppose that Yoda could beat Dooku before Mace beat Obi-Wan?
Its possible. Mace and Yoda would both win, and while Obi Wan is master of soresu, Dooku will also not fall to Yoda quickly. Hard to say who would lose first.
Based on personality, id say Windu doesn't hesitate to cut down Obi Wan, while Yoda would be more hesitant to strike down Dooku, as always.