Originally posted by King of Blades
Just remember, if you chose Palpatine, he did take out Jedi Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto all under 30 seconds. That alone should speak to the prowess of his abilities...
And let us not forget that Yoda equalled Palpatine in lightsaber prowess, and if we bring in the script, disarmed him between scenes.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And let us not forget that Yoda equalled Palpatine in lightsaber prowess, and if we bring in the script, disarmed him between scenes.
I always felt just going by the films that Yoda was better than Sidious in a pure saber fight, but I would never hear the end of it when I discussed it with the SW fanatics.
Originally posted by Korto VosYou can create a new thread and in your initial post include the link at the end of my post here. This thread here can be the thread where people discuss their opinions. Hopefully most will be respectful and wait until we agree it's over.
Anyway, is this the thread we are debating in? Or will there be a new thread?
In your initial post of the thread include this link with opinions to be weighed in to this thread at the end of our match with the link.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=553185&pagenumber=1
Ok I just read Korto Vos' opening arguments in the other thread, and I am slightly convinced. Many of the points are expected, but some new points as well. I imagine you might have some saved some up your sleeve for later.
Anyway, I was thinking, what about Yoda throwing his saber at Voldemort (as Yoda does against a Clone Trooper while attempting to get into the Temple after Order 66), what would he do?
Should I even be asking this in here? Hope I'm not seen as giving 'pointers' to one side or anything (which I'm not really), although I have no doubt Vos already considered that.
Vos' argument is pretty well laid out. He focuses on point by point instead of doing a complete "data dump", he correctly notes the standard battle style of each and contrasts them. I feel his argument that Yoda could block spells lacks substance, but ultimately the others more than outweigh its importance. Yoda's simply too maneuverable and melee-savvy compared to a wizard, even one of Voldemort's stature, and his TK ability could alleviate him being pinned down or even targeted with spells. It doesn't take a genius to see that after the first or second spell, the wand is a tool to be removed.
Just read the opponents first reply.
While I thought his opening presentation for Voldemort was good, I didn't quite like how he downplayed Yoda, it was a little too excessive especially using his "losses" against Dooku and Palpatine as some sort of proof.
Against Dooku, he was rapidly gaining on him. I could be wrong but I remember the novels saying Dooku was fighting for his life against Yoda's barrage of saber blows. He only managed to escape because Yoda chose to save Obi Wan/Anakin. I believe this point was used to show that Yoda was unable to best an inferior opponent despite the grave consequences of not doing so. While this statement is true, it proves nothing and is irrelevant to the battle at hand. Yoda will not be distracted by anything against Voldemort and the 'low showing' takes nothing away from his skills and power.
About Yoda not seizing the opportunity to down Dooku while he took his time to drop structures onto Obi Wan/Anakin, I don't really count that against Yoda as I see it more of a plot-related/'bad writing' reason.
About the instances of precognition failure on Yoda's part, I have always thought it was due to the dominance of the Dark Side and how it has clouded the vision of the Light Side.
Also related is how Anakin beat Dooku, I believed Palpatine was influencing the fight somehow. Of course this is just my opinion.
About Yoda losing his saber against force storm. First of all, he was taken by surprise. He also held the saber with one hand. But the most important point is that the force storm attack has more PHYSICAL force than most spells do.
About Voldemort not losing his wand due to TK because it has never happened in the films, I find this rather a weak defense, or no defense really. Voldermort has never been against anyone close to Yoda's level of TK, so its a moot point.
Without sounding biased, I do believe Voldermort's arsenal is superior overall, but whether or not he can put down Master Yoda quickly enough, and at the same time evade harm, I am still considering.
Originally posted by Placidity
Just read the opponents first reply.While I thought his opening presentation for Voldemort was good, I didn't quite like how he downplayed Yoda, it was a little too excessive especially using his "losses" against Dooku and Palpatine as some sort of proof.
Against Dooku, he was rapidly gaining on him. I could be wrong but I remember the novels saying Dooku was fighting for his life against Yoda's barrage of saber blows. He only managed to escape because Yoda chose to save Obi Wan/Anakin. I believe this point was used to show that Yoda was unable to best an inferior opponent despite the grave consequences of not doing so. While this statement is true, it proves nothing and is irrelevant to the battle at hand. Yoda will not be distracted by anything against Voldemort and the 'low showing' takes nothing away from his skills and power.
Remember, Dooku is considered among the best duelists of his era, and one of the most powerful of Jedi as well. Simply because he didn't destroy Dooku in seconds doesn't mean he was unable to defeat him or lacked the power. Yoda regularly outfights sentients twice or more of his height, with more leverage as well. He consistently breaks saber locks using what appears to be Force-aided strength, and he is incredibly mobile despite advanced age and arthritis.
Considering Dooku toys with and defeats Obi-Wan and Anakin within minutes, and yet is forced back by Yoda speaks for the latter's skill in combat.
About Yoda not seizing the opportunity to down Dooku while he took his time to drop structures onto Obi Wan/Anakin, I don't really count that against Yoda as I see it more of a plot-related/'bad writing' reason.
Arguing PIS is indeed irrelevant. This is like saying Voldemort should have just hired a muggle sharpshooter to plug Potter in the back as he leaves his protected relatives' house.
About the instances of precognition failure on Yoda's part, I have always thought it was due to the dominance of the Dark Side and how it has clouded the vision of the Light Side.
Yoda being shocked by Sidious initially is dramatic effect at the sake of good storytelling. Yoda has repeatedly demonstrated metahuman reflexes and the ability to react in accordance with famed Jedi precognition. It's his lowest showing with regards to dodging, but to be fair he's standing defiantly and leaning on his stick, not braced for combat with his saber out as the thread creator assumes is the case.
Also related is how Anakin beat Dooku, I believed Palpatine was influencing the fight somehow. Of course this is just my opinion.
The original script hints that Dooku is toying with Anakin and not going all out, and that Anakin genuinely surprises and overcomes him. This doesn't mean Anakin has more technical prowess and experience than Dooku; he just rolled a natural 20.
About Yoda losing his saber against force storm. First of all, he was taken by surprise. He also held the saber with one hand. But the most important point is that the force storm attack has more PHYSICAL force than most spells do.
Mace Windu, who was leaning forward on flat ground and had both hands on his saber, was struggling. Yoda had almost no traction, his grip was poor because he was only using one hand, and yet he was not thrown back nearly as bad until the storm exploded.
About Voldemort not losing his wand due to TK because it has never happened in the films, I find this rather a weak defense, or no defense really. Voldermort has never been against anyone close to Yoda's level of TK, so its a moot point.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall TK being the chief method of bodily harm in the HP universe. Also, considering Yoda can immediately TK Voldemort across the room, this is moot. Quanchi's argument has not mentioned or shown that wizardly TK is able to block or negate Force TK, whereas Jedi and Sith do have ways to block or stall each others' attacks.
Without sounding biased, I do believe Voldermort's arsenal is superior overall, but whether or not he can put down Master Yoda quickly enough, and at the same time evade harm, I am still considering.
Voldemort's spells are lethal, but not so lethal that he's unbeatable. Wizards have human agility and dexterity. Yoda is beyond human. Couple this with unblockable TK and precognition, and it seems likely that Voldemort would expend much of his abilities just to keep Yoda at bay.
Originally posted by the ninjakReally no one and at the same time anyone who garners the time and an opinion. To me the debate is all that matters so I didn't really actively pursue judges. One thing I will say though those who post comments it alters our debate because I as I am sure Vos as well will read it before our debate is finished.
Whose judging this?Sooner or later this is gonna boil down to the need for one.
I think Quan makes a valid point about Yoda's inability to finish an opponent. I don't look at it so much as Quan downplaying Yoda's abilities, but more as pointing out the fact that he does not have that killer instinct. I mean after losing to Palpatine, Yoda thought it would be a good plan to hide on a remote planet and hope Palpatine did not find him. Both Dooku and Palpatine realized early on it was better to fight Yoda from a distance using force powers and throwing objects at him. In both instances it swung the momentum of the fight from Yoda to his opponents, and this is what Voldemort would be doing, but doing it much better with just a flick of the wrist.
Originally posted by Korto Vos In the movies, we see Voldemort as always aiming for a fatal stroke. The first move he always does is a powerful decapitating/killing attack (most likely his trademark Avada Kadavra)…Voldemort’s arrogance and narcissism will cause the Dark Lord to underestimate his “little, green friend.”…He will hold his ground and attempt to destroy Yoda with lethal force.
Secondly, consider Dumbledore. This is literally a Sidious-Yoda match. Not in prowess but in archtypes: The ultimate good vs. the ultimate evil (presently). Voldemort is not going to be using within his repertoire weak, novice spells. The same goes for Dumbledore. They are both aware they are powerful spell casters and aware that the other party is going to bring his A-game. So what do you expect? Each of them using incredibly powerful spells.
Another example of Voldemort’s “level-headedness” is his understanding of defeat. At the end of the battle in the movie Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort, after watching his glass converted into sand, stands takes a breath an apparates. That’s it. No temper tantrum, no ace up his sleeve, “touché Dumbledore. The next time you won’t be so lucky.”
Voldemort knows how to handle situations. He’s a veteran. He’s seen his fair share of battles, and, again, his one mistake was not anticipating ancient magic. His personality, in my opinion, is playful when possible. And this is not something to consider critical.
Originally posted by Korto Vos Voldemort’s fundamental weakness is actually his only weapon: the wand. Though capable of wandless magic, Voldemort would be unable to perform the advanced spells in his repertoire without his instrument. He has shown that he can do basic telekinesis with a hand motion during his confrontation with Harry Potter in the Little Hangleton graveyard. However, it’s possible that holding a wand in the other hand might have aided, or even allowed, him in this capability. If Voldemort disarms Yoda’s lightsaber, the Jedi has the ability to Force Pull back his weapon; even if the Dark Wizard destroys the lightsaber, Yoda can still kill Voldemort with TK blows.
My response is twofold for this:
1-Let us remember that magic is a controllable energy in every sense that force lightning is. Not only is it manipulative but it is graspable. Two cases for this:
Yoda is able to control force lightning sent to him with his hands
Voldemort is able to manipulate fiendfyre with his hands.
Given that force/magic weren't differentiated, that is both are the same type of energy, then it is equally feasible that when yoda utilizes the force Voldemort is allowed some control over it. Granted, I do NOT give him either the freedom or the versatility to manipulate energy as Yoda could. I am only saying, provided the criteria, both can; just not both equally.
2-This is why I really hoped you all would have established the rules of force influence on characters. Here is my take on it. Obviously its ambiguity must ultimately be decided by the dueling parties
The force is some ubiquitous, metaphysical transcendent power that influences all life within the star wars universe. Midi-chlorians serve as the “translators” or the bridges between the “force realm” and the physical realm. This union is solidified in the relationship between two elements, the force continues to influence the galaxy and the midi-chlorians continue to allow others to manipulate and influence the force. The force is not the midi-chlorians nor vice versa. Each one is unique and integral in the relationship to the other.
Voldemort would not be able to be manipulated by the force. Midi-chlorians are intelligent life forms to this galaxy. The Yuuzhan Vong were extragalactic. They were, in all senses of the word, immune to the force. Voldemort is extragalactic. Ergo, QED…
Secondly if Voldemort were to enter into the starwars universe with all the perks, I would consider him a force wound. Now, where this does not entirely impedes the force influence on the individual, it certainly hampers it to a very large extent. IF yoda were to use any form of force energy on Voldemort in any of the above cases, I would imagine it requiring large amounts of concentration.
That is, he’s not just going to be making laps around Voldemort while successively giving him wedgies. As I see it yoda must either, in rapidity, use the force to enhance his abilities and engage Voldemort that way, or hold a standoff with Voldemort where yoda will be for the most part “grounded” and he and Voldemort will get to barrage each other with energy. But not both.
Originally posted by Korto Vos Voldemort’s nature suggests he won’t make use of heavy Apparition and instead subject himself to being a sitting duck for Yoda. Wizarding duels usually involve two opponents a short distance away pummeling spells at each other. Voldemort would be heavily unprepared for an opponent that moves extensively in all dimensions (forwards, backwards, left, right, up, and down). On the other hand, Yoda might possibly recognize Voldemort as similar to a Clone trooper who holds his position and attempts to continuously blast away until he finally hits his target.
I am more inclined to believe that Voldemort matches his battle scenario. I also attribute to Yoda this character trait. They understand that battle calls for flexibility in tactics. This is a common facet of all great generals. Voldemort became great because of the plethora of great spell casters he has fought and slain. Though speculative, it is not entirely unfeasible to imagine the need for him to change up his strategy. After all, part of a wizard’s duel is the swiftness in which one can draw their wand and summon a spell. If anything Voldemort is a sharp shooter (westerner), not a lumbering soldier…
Originally posted by Korto Vos Voldemort, though a master of inconceivable Dark Arts, is still a human and under human reflexes. None of the duels involving Voldemort have him displaying acute reflexes; he ends up submerged within Dumbledore’s aqua bubble- Yoda would have clearly jumped and avoided that water altogether.
There’s nothing to denote this. Yoda moves fast, and though speed is a conclusive attribute, the speed of spell travel is not. Whether or not Yoda would or could have avoided that situation is speculative and inconclusive at best. It is valid to claim that Voldemort is human reflex limited. It is not valid to claim that yoda’s speed could have him avoid spells.
Support:
1:44 & 1:55 Voldemort’s spells show no trace or trails from his wand to his opponent. These spells imply instantaneous travel, but most importantly are immaterial. If it was agreed that spells are forms of energy, then spells such as crucio or the implied imperious spell are a tenable object to resist. Also the spell itself was not spoken, the command was; a very probable point of consideration as that if Voldemort “rolls a natural 20” and wins the exchange a simple “stop” will have yoda halted. There is nothing similar to these types of effects in the jedi world, and I would consider force persuasion a very far from second response. Yoda is obviously light sided and would not resort to choking.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arguing PIS is indeed irrelevant.
I agree, and yet…
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda being shocked by Sidious initially is dramatic effect at the sake of good storytelling.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose This doesn't mean Anakin(yoda/sidious) has more technical prowess and experience than Dooku(vice verse); he just rolled a natural 20.
Originally posted by Placidity While I thought his opening presentation for Voldemort was good, I didn't quite like how he downplayed Yoda, it was a little too excessive especially using his "losses" against Dooku and Palpatine as some sort of proof.
…In other words, I would recognize that when Sidious was fighting Yoda, there were moments when he had the upper hand. Sidious was powerful and Yoda wasn’t perfect. Also, the classification of the greatness of a person is in their comparison. Yoda is good, but there were points when he just didn’t cut it, and that is ultimately a critique of his character. I don’t limit this to Yoda, but the criticism of evaluating losses as faulty or weak is not really logical.
Originally posted by Placidity Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall TK being the chief method of bodily harm in the HP universe. Also, considering Yoda can immediately TK Voldemort across the room, this is moot. Quanchi's argument has not mentioned or shown that wizardly TK is able to block or negate Force TK, whereas Jedi and Sith do have ways to block or stall each others' attacks.Sith and Jedi lock in force tackles through the collision of similar energy. Seeing as magic was not differentiated as another form of energy, and Voldemort was able to manipulate energy/magic with his hands, then it isn’t improbable to conceive of an “energy tackle” match.
fin de la première ronde