Originally posted by King of BladesLOL
This is not true. First let us consider who he has fought in cinematic epic battles: Dumbledore and Harry Potter. To the latter we’ve only seen once and consider this: He’s been dead his (Harry’s) entire life time. He wasn’t death-lusting for Harry’s immediate death. In other words, though he toyed with Harry, there was business to take care of first. Voldemort, for all his pomp is a very, very level headed individual. You don’t make it to be that big by making mistakes. Note his only one, ONE, real mistake was not having anticipated incredible, unstoppable ancient magic. Hardly a fault in my book.Secondly, consider Dumbledore. This is literally a Sidious-Yoda match. Not in prowess but in archtypes: The ultimate good vs. the ultimate evil (presently). Voldemort is not going to be using within his repertoire weak, novice spells. The same goes for Dumbledore. They are both aware they are powerful spell casters and aware that the other party is going to bring his A-game. So what do you expect? Each of them using incredibly powerful spells.
Another example of Voldemort’s “level-headedness” is his understanding of defeat. At the end of the battle in the movie Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort, after watching his glass converted into sand, stands takes a breath an apparates. That’s it. No temper tantrum, no ace up his sleeve, “touché Dumbledore. The next time you won’t be so lucky.”
Voldemort knows how to handle situations. He’s a veteran. He’s seen his fair share of battles, and, again, his one mistake was not anticipating ancient magic. His personality, in my opinion, is playful when possible. And this is not something to consider critical.
My response is twofold for this:
1-Let us remember that magic is a controllable energy in every sense that force lightning is. Not only is it manipulative but it is graspable. Two cases for this:
Yoda is able to control force lightning sent to him with his hands
Voldemort is able to manipulate fiendfyre with his hands.Given that force/magic weren't differentiated, that is both are the same type of energy, then it is equally feasible that when yoda utilizes the force Voldemort is allowed some control over it. Granted, I do NOT give him either the freedom or the versatility to manipulate energy as Yoda could. I am only saying, provided the criteria, both can; just not both equally.
2-This is why I really hoped you all would have established the rules of force influence on characters. Here is my take on it. Obviously its ambiguity must ultimately be decided by the dueling parties
The force is some ubiquitous, metaphysical transcendent power that influences all life within the star wars universe. Midi-chlorians serve as the “translators” or the bridges between the “force realm” and the physical realm. This union is solidified in the relationship between two elements, the force continues to influence the galaxy and the midi-chlorians continue to allow others to manipulate and influence the force. The force is not the midi-chlorians nor vice versa. Each one is unique and integral in the relationship to the other.
Voldemort would not be able to be manipulated by the force. Midi-chlorians are intelligent life forms to this galaxy. The Yuuzhan Vong were extragalactic. They were, in all senses of the word, immune to the force. Voldemort is extragalactic. Ergo, QED…
Secondly if Voldemort were to enter into the starwars universe with all the perks, I would consider him a force wound. Now, where this does not entirely impedes the force influence on the individual, it certainly hampers it to a very large extent. IF yoda were to use any form of force energy on Voldemort in any of the above cases, I would imagine it requiring large amounts of concentration.
That is, he’s not just going to be making laps around Voldemort while successively giving him wedgies. As I see it yoda must either, in rapidity, use the force to enhance his abilities and engage Voldemort that way, or hold a standoff with Voldemort where yoda will be for the most part “grounded” and he and Voldemort will get to barrage each other with energy. But not both.
I am more inclined to believe that Voldemort matches his battle scenario. I also attribute to Yoda this character trait. They understand that battle calls for flexibility in tactics. This is a common facet of all great generals. Voldemort became great because of the plethora of great spell casters he has fought and slain. Though speculative, it is not entirely unfeasible to imagine the need for him to change up his strategy. After all, part of a wizard’s duel is the swiftness in which one can draw their wand and summon a spell. If anything Voldemort is a sharp shooter (westerner), not a lumbering soldier…
There’s nothing to denote this. Yoda moves fast, and though speed is a conclusive attribute, the speed of spell travel is not. Whether or not Yoda would or could have avoided that situation is speculative and inconclusive at best. It is valid to claim that Voldemort is human reflex limited. It is not valid to claim that yoda’s speed could have him avoid spells.
Support:
1:44 & 1:55 Voldemort’s spells show no trace or trails from his wand to his opponent. These spells imply instantaneous travel, but most importantly are immaterial. If it was agreed that spells are forms of energy, then spells such as crucio or the implied imperious spell are a tenable object to resist. Also the spell itself was not spoken, the command was; a very probable point of consideration as that if Voldemort “rolls a natural 20” and wins the exchange a simple “stop” will have yoda halted. There is nothing similar to these types of effects in the jedi world, and I would consider force persuasion a very far from second response. Yoda is obviously light sided and would not resort to choking.
I agree, and yet…
So...
…In other words, I would recognize that when Sidious was fighting Yoda, there were moments when he had the upper hand. Sidious was powerful and Yoda wasn’t perfect. Also, the classification of the greatness of a person is in their comparison. Yoda is good, but there were points when he just didn’t cut it, and that is ultimately a critique of his character. I don’t limit this to Yoda, but the criticism of evaluating losses as faulty or weak is not really logical.
Sith and Jedi lock in force tackles through the collision of similar energy. Seeing as magic was not differentiated as another form of energy, and Voldemort was able to manipulate energy/magic with his hands, then it isn’t improbable to conceive of an “energy tackle” match.
fin de la première ronde
Originally posted by King of BladesThat's both EU, and incorrect. The Vong's sentient home planet purposefully blinded them to the Force, it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. They possess midi-chlorians and the rare Force-users (Onimi and an unnamed female).
Voldemort would not be able to be manipulated by the force. Midi-chlorians are intelligent life forms to this galaxy. The Yuuzhan Vong were extragalactic. They were, in all senses of the word, immune to the force. Voldemort is extragalactic. Ergo, QED…
Ok, my final summation is up and the debate is over. I didn't want to rehash and address everything over again I feel we both made an argument clear enough to let the people reading it decide on their own. It was so long I hope those who did read it don't skim over a lot of the responses since we did really drag this out into one of the longest battlezones I've ever seen.
Originally posted by Korto VosNope, I did forget how much energy is required for these. I expected it to be considerably less than my two comic book battlezones but it didn't feel any less time consuming.
😄I bet you didn't expect when you made your challenge in the Battle Bar that it would end up being a 90 post bonanza 😛
I just recently watched the under world trilogy and guess what I happen to love Viktor. I wonder who I could pit the vampire elder up against.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nope, I did forget how much energy is required for these. I expected it to be considerably less than my two comic book battlezones but it didn't feel any less time consuming.I just recently watched the under world trilogy and guess what I happen to love Viktor. I wonder who I could pit the vampire elder up against.
Well I clearly wasn't planning on making it easy for you 😈
But yeah jeez, these things are intense. It is worth it though- a real challenge and a chance to show off your argumentative prowess.
Haha...count me out of that one.
Originally posted by Korto VosYeah, if and when I do another one it probably won't be any time soon. These things take something out of you. I was never a real big Star Wars fan and you seem to have a real love for the franchise that's why this one was perfect. Maybe a special battlezone where Viktor matches wits against Palpatine in a preparation scenario some day. I think that'd be interesting and far different from the normal fight in some random room type scenario.
Well I clearly wasn't planning on making it easy for you 😈But yeah jeez, these things are intense. It is worth it though- a real challenge and a chance to show off your argumentative prowess.
Haha...count me out of that one.
Star Wars would have to be limited though since it does take place throughout a galaxy and their numbers would just crap all over what we've from from Underworld. I know I'm rambling but maybe some other avid star wars fan will see this and find this sort of challenge interesting.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
As for voting, that is up to the discretion of the posters. If you followed the debate, you can decide overall who made a better case and proved why his respective character would win.
I'm just thinking if people don't vote that would be rather disappointing given the time and energy spent by both of you. I know who I'm voting for but I don't want to say first 😄
It would be nice to add a poll, but the problem is that some people might vote without reading the debate. Or only reading the first page, and not the entire thread (since new evidence and discussions are mentioned later).
Which is why stating who you think 'won' in this thread is the best, since that might spark a discussion and you can justify why.
I honestly don't think enough people will even weigh in to actually place a poll in I am sure we can just tally it up if you want to in the end. Without official judges it'll be left up in the air in the end and I just want to read opinions on how they felt about the debate. It's about the debate in the end. I suggest writing a brief summation on who you felt won and why. I'm actually surprised no one has responded since but I did feel we lost a lot of posters interest when we told them to wait and considering how many posts this thread had in it.
This movie versus forum needs life breathed back into and hopefully another battlezone will happen soon. I'd like to see two other posters go it it in the same fashion and weigh in at the end. All in all this is just nerd fun.
Since the debate is over, we can ask for 'official judges' to read the thread and decide a winner; they won't have to wait as well.
Blades seemed to do well, responding to my posts in the first round, but he hasn't commented on the rest.
I've mentioned the battlezone in the Star Wars EU/Versus Forums, and people there have been reading parts of the debate.
We just need people to comment here.
Originally posted by Korto VosI'm happy with just about anyone weighing in. I have yet to hear anything since we have concluded.
Since the debate is over, we can ask for 'official judges' to read the thread and decide a winner; they won't have to wait as well.Blades seemed to do well, responding to my posts in the first round, but he hasn't commented on the rest.
I've mentioned the battlezone in the Star Wars EU/Versus Forums, and people there have been reading parts of the debate.
We just need people to comment here.