Originally posted by Nephthys
[b]Moved since this should really be in this thread rather than the other.Revan was the one who created the problem in the first place. The Star Forge wouldn't even be a factor if Revan hadn't of tracked down the Star Maps or if he had never fell to the darkside. How can he be a great Jedi for fixing a problem he himself created in the first place? And no, the Triumvirate was a much greater threat to the galaxy than the Star Forge and the Sith. Nihilus was a threat to Life itself, and if Traya's plan had been successful the Force itself would have died, again representing a threat to literally the entire galaxy rather than just the Republics citizens.
Revan was not the main character of Kotor 2. Much of the story is centered around him and his impact, but the central character is still The Exile and how she saved the galaxy from a far greater threat than Malak and his empire. And Traya was around before Revan.
Traya was guessing at that. Sure it was an informed decision, but ultimately she had no idea what caused Revan to fall, and perhaps she didn't even know the extent to which the Madalorian War changed him. Furthermore Revan has his past as a Sith Lord holding him back as well as the slight problem of him being preprogrammed towards being a Jedi. I seriously disagree with him being a great Jedi on these grounds alone, in that he was brainwashed into acting as the Jedi ideal, rather than by any actual choice. That takes him clean out of the running imo. [/B]
I agree Traya was speculating, but as someone who knew Revan well and even trained him, I would trust her explanation of Revan's fall. The man was already on way to saving the Republic from the Mandalorians when he uncovered the existence of the hidden Sith Empire. He realized that was a much greater threat, and understood that such a force could only be repelled by a united galaxy under the leadership of a strong, charismatic leader and military genius (namely himself).
The Sith Emperor knew of the Star Forge, and assigned Revan and Malak to search for the Star Maps. If Revan hadn't discovered the location of the Star Forge, the Sith Emperor certainly would have later. Revan only planned to use the Star Forge to conquer the galaxy, never to draw power from it. If Traya's statement is true, this attitude makes greater sense. Revan knew the titanic perils if the Sith Emperor wielded the Star Forge; therefore, he used the space station for his own purposes. Even if those purposes weren't noble and more selfish, it was Revan's defiance that delayed the arrival of the Sith Empire.
Revan is the underlying main character of KOTOR 2. Everything that happening in that galaxy was a result of his actions. Traya, Nihilus, and the entire Triumvirate all owe existence to him. The Exile wouldn't have been a "wound in the Force" if not for Revan's command.
However, I agree with your argument that Nihilus was a threat to all life, and the Exile saved the galaxy from that. Yet, the Star Forge in the hands of the true Sith would have been incredibly catastrophic as well. And Revan destroyed that space station.
And finally, even if Revan had been reprogrammed, he regained his memories later. He saw darkness and the potential of unlimited power, but rejected it in favor of light.
Originally posted by ares834
Furthermore, if life countined to exist the Force should just come back.
Highlighted for emphasis. My understanding is that killing the Force would lead to the death of everything connected to it, or at least everything that isn't as strong willed as The Exile. That is why Kreia is so obsessed with her after all, because she proves that life can go on without the Force. But she is veeery much in the minority and the destuction of the Force would, imo, probably lead to untold destruction, the likes of which is simply incalculable.
"Go on without the Force."
Bullshit plot device is bullshit. The Exile can be a "Wound" all she likes, but a wound is just a dent, an injury in the body as a whole--but it's still alive and present. The Exile's use and sense of the Force to such extents in the game is proof that she's not "dead to" or "outside of" or "removed from" the Force. Same with Nihilus. They exists within the Force, they're just warped from their experiences. Kreia's cryptic word-play is a real piss off.
Except they do not still exist within the Force. The only way that the Exile and Nihilus can still use the Force is by leeching it from others. Thats why the Exile only gets back her ability to use the Force when she meets and is bonded to Kriea. She is specifically noted to be an 'absense in the Force'. In a sense she is no different from Sion, a corpse who is somehow able to walk around, only where he is dead in the flesh, she is dead in the Force.
Originally posted by Q99
Revan's super-important to be sure, but it's half on Jedi side and half on Sith side, so the points are kinda divided for him compared to someone who's great feats are on one side or another like the Exile.Also on the Exile's point total, keep in mind the defeat of Nihilus, and he ultimately was a much bigger threat than the assassins.
He set the groundwork for stuff, but others did IMO more. As you say, his warnings of Sadow's attack weren't followed. Also on the code, he revised it's language, he didn't create it from the ground up. The library is probably his biggest contribution.
Definitely one of the most impressive scholars at the least.
1. C'mon, the Star Wars Universe loves the good guy gone bad gone good. A Jedi that has fallen, becomes stronger in the Dark Side, but rejects it and becomes ultimately more powerful as an avatar of light is the truest sign of a Jedi Knight- a redeemed warrior that has seen both sides of the Force but still accepts the Light Side. Luke Skywalker hasn't been beyond corruption either, but he is arguably one of the most important Jedi of all time.
2. Which ones can you name that have done more (apart from Luke, Anakin, Revan, and Exile)? Odan-Urr was critical in a battle that devastated a significant portion of Sadow's army. He was critical in establishing a library that would contribute to Jedi knowledge. And he was critical in developing a Code (that was previously esoteric to the Order) that would form the basis behind Jedi training and policy for the next four thousand years.
Originally posted by NephthysYouTube video
Except they do not still exist within the Force. The only way that the Exile and Nihilus can still use the Force is by leeching it from others. Thats why the Exile only gets back her ability to use the Force when she meets and is bonded to Kriea. She is specifically noted to be an 'absense in the Force'. In a sense she is no different from Sion, a corpse who is somehow able to walk around, only where he is dead in the flesh, she is dead in the Force.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. C'mon, the Star Wars Universe loves the good guy gone bad gone good. A Jedi that has fallen, becomes stronger in the Dark Side, but rejects it and becomes ultimately more powerful as an avatar of light is the truest sign of a Jedi Knight- a redeemed warrior that has seen both sides of the Force but still accepts the Light Side. Luke Skywalker hasn't been beyond corruption either, but he is arguably one of the most important Jedi of all time.
But Luke's done a ton of good stuff compared to his bad. He brought down the Emperor via turning Vader, as well as defeating the Emperor Reborn, he led the Jedi against the Vong, and handled many smaller threats. As well as, of course, recreating the order from the ground up.
If a large chunk of your good stuff is simply undoing your bad stuff, then you're largely canceling out. It's a very compelling story, but it doesn't quite get you the title of 'top' 🙂
Likewise, Vader's not going to be any Jedi's top list in universe even though he killed Palpatine and put an end to the Rule of Two.
2. Which ones can you name that have done more (apart from Luke, Anakin, Revan, and Exile)? Odan-Urr was critical in a battle that devastated a significant portion of Sadow's army. He was critical in establishing a library that would contribute to Jedi knowledge. And he was critical in developing a Code (that was previously esoteric to the Order) that would form the basis behind Jedi training and policy for the next four thousand years.
Nomi?
Odan-Urr was critical in one important battle, but there's been many important battles. She defeated and turned an enemy commander in a war just as big.
There's been other libraries just as important (that one lasted a thousand years). And while he did formalize the code, it was based on existing philosophies.
Lord Hoth cornered the Brotherhood of Darkness and brought them to the world that'd spell their defeat.
Lesse, Cade's kinda a stretch, but he both killed Krayt and destroyed the Muur talisman. Two galactic threats.
Originally posted by Nephthyshttp://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t548905.html
link....?
Originally posted by Q99
But Luke's done a ton of good stuff compared to his bad. He brought down the Emperor via turning Vader, as well as defeating the Emperor Reborn, he led the Jedi against the Vong, and handled many smaller threats. As well as, of course, recreating the order from the ground up.If a large chunk of your good stuff is simply undoing your bad stuff, then you're largely canceling out. It's a very compelling story, but it doesn't quite get you the title of 'top' 🙂
Likewise, Vader's not going to be any Jedi's top list in universe even though he killed Palpatine and put an end to the Rule of Two.
Nomi?
Odan-Urr was critical in one important battle, but there's been many important battles. She defeated and turned an enemy commander in a war just as big.
There's been other libraries just as important (that one lasted a thousand years). And while he did formalize the code, it was based on existing philosophies.
Lord Hoth cornered the Brotherhood of Darkness and brought them to the world that'd spell their defeat.
Lesse, Cade's kinda a stretch, but he both killed Krayt and destroyed the Muur talisman. Two galactic threats.
1. Fine, let's go by your cancelling rule:
Revan saves the galaxy from Mandalorian rule +1
Revan falls to the Dark Side and establishes a Sith Empire -1
Revan finds the Star Forge but uses it sparingly -1
Revan redeems himself and defeats his own Empire +1
Revan more or less bring about the destruction the Star Forge (the nearly invincible space station that was to be the trump card of the Sith Emperor) that was dangerously being used by Malak +2
Revan prevents the Sith Emperor's war machine from invasion, thereby ensuring galactic peace for another few hundred years +1
+5; -2 (and those points might have been out of necessity with Revan falling to the Dark Side to fight the greater evil, as Traya remarked). So Revan ended up doing more than just righting his own wrongs.
2. How is Anakin Skywalker not on the list of most important Jedi? He is the "Chosen One," and he brought balance to the Force. He effectively destroyed the Rule of 2 (the best Sith philosophy). Sidious was the ultimate product of this teaching, and he was the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. His removal of Sidious brought the collapse of one the strongest Empires in galactic history (if the not the most iron-fisted). Sure, many wars would happen over the next hundred years, and Sidious would return and other Sith would emerge. However, Anakin's sacrifice allowed Luke Skywalker to achieve his potential and remain fixated on the path of Light, allowed the formation of the New Republic, and with a free galaxy granted Luke Skywalker the safety of establishing the New Jedi Order.
3. The Code was esoteric and not clear-cut before Urr wrote his Teachings. Bane took Revan's beliefs and constructed the Rule of Two. Likewise, Urr took the scattered philosophies of the Code and established a document that detailed the proper conduct for a Jedi. And these ideas were closely practiced by the Order for thousands of years.
(Ex: In Hinduism, for example, the original Vedas contained many abstract ideas that needed clearer elucidation and expansion. One of the key philosophers, Yajnavalkya, interpreted the Vedas and was credited as one of the primary authors (if not the main) of the collection of teachings known as the Upanishads, the ideas of which form the key philosophies of Hinduism).
4. Hoth couldn't have won without Farfalla, and both armies were almost wiped out on Ruusan. No side would have won, but Kaan was cracked and decided to unleash a thought bomb.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Fine, let's go by your cancelling rule:Revan saves the galaxy from Mandalorian rule +1
Revan falls to the Dark Side and establishes a Sith Empire -1
Revan finds the Star Forge but uses it sparingly -1
Revan redeems himself and defeats his own Empire +1
Revan more or less bring about the destruction the Star Forge (the nearly invincible space station that was to be the trump card of the Sith Emperor) that was dangerously being used by Malak +2
Revan prevents the Sith Emperor's war machine from invasion, thereby ensuring galactic peace for another few hundred years +1
Originally posted by Toshi
This a pretty arbitrary system...
Revan stopped the Mandalorian threat but he disobeyed the will of the Jedi Council and enlisted others to disobey as well. That led to numerous Padawans and Knights turning to the dark side as well. Which includes Malak who destroyed everything that got in his way.k
Where did it say he sued it sparingly? Haven't played it in awhile but the only thing I remember is that Revan didn't destroy important Republic worlds so he can use it to stop the unidentified Sith Emperor. Where does it say he used it sparingly? Why go through the trouble of finding it to not use it?
It wasn't an act of his own will but sure.
Which was instrumental of the action above. It shouldn't be counted twice.
Which again is tied up to destroying the Star Forge. It's a another free point. And no, that alone did not ensure galactic peace. The Exile gets half a point here at least for stabilizing the Republic. If she didn't do anything the Republic would have crumbled due to lack of resources and infighting. The Sith would find everything FUBAR.
Lovely, 2 on 1!
1. Yes, he disobeyed the will of Council, which was going to sit by and let the Republic fall, and countless worlds destroyed. Besides, the corruption of the other Jedi happens in his establishment of the Sith Empire, which I noted. However, he created a holocron that Bane later studied. -1
2. He only used the Star Forge to construct a large fleet for battle. He didn't bother tapping into the Dark energies of the space station; all he cared about was the stability of the galaxy under his control, which mandated a large armada. -1
3. How the in the world is it not his own will? He REMEMBERS his past, and still rejects the Dark Side. And he is tempted again by the one he loves, and rejects it twice more. And after killing Malak, he is tempted to take his mantle as Dark Lord with the Star Forge unleashed and a host of Sith at his call, but he rejects the Dark Side again. It IS HIS OWN WILL. I give him a +1 boss point for being such a paragon Jedi, Knight of the Republic.
4. The destruction of the Sith Empire is +1. And I was being generous as the destruction of the Star Forge should count for like +3 because it was basically an invincible space station. But +3 overall
5. The delay of the hidden Sith Empire war machine for several hundred years definitely deserves a point. +1
6. For kick's sake, I'll give -2 because in the wake of his disappearance, Kreia goes off and becomes Traya, and trains Nihilus and Sion, who start the Triumvirate.
In the end, we still manage +1.
The whole point behind the arbitrary approach above is to demonstrate that Revan did more than just right his wrongs.
Still, you've got great Jedi who never forged a Sith Empire and brought the galaxy to it's knees at all.
Forging a Sith Empire is, I think, worth a lot more than -1 in most Jedi's eyes.
Especially considering his writings while Sith inspired multiple other forms of the Sith down the road aside from the Triumvirate. Darth Rivan, and giving Darth Bane the idea for the Rule of Two.
2. How is Anakin Skywalker not on the list of most important Jedi? He is the "Chosen One," and he brought balance to the Force.
Because he was Darth Vader for decades and was one of the central people responsible for the Jedi purge, personally killing hundreds. He lead the inquisition to seek out and kill survivors, he destroyed worlds, and so on.
That's a whole ton of bad points. It's not like he had a brief flirtation with the dark side ala Luke, he did a lot of evil stuff.
4. Hoth couldn't have won without Farfalla, and both armies were almost wiped out on Ruusan. No side would have won, but Kaan was cracked and decided to unleash a thought bomb.
Kaan wouldn't have cracked if he wasn't in a corner.
That was the culmination of a long campaign with many victories. Sure, it required Farfalla for the final push, but they had taken the Sith down from a very strong point down to the edge.