Rank the greatest jedi in a top five

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Lol I think the "Now, Kill him... DO IT!" in a pretty evil, creepy voice would have alerted anyone.

Lets face it, if any of the other Jedi heard the conversations Anakin and Palpatine were having they would have known Palpatine's evil and working for the Sith in some shape or form.

Lucien
And Anakin continuing to not only trust, but believe Palpatine's claims after the man encouraged him to execute someone and urged him to leave his best friend to die, is retarded.

Palpatine provided clever rationalizations for both orders. Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin had tapped into the dark side at that point in time. As we know from Return of the Jedi, it's painfully easy to manipulate obscenely angry Force users. There is precedent.

Would it have made more sense to you if Palpatine threw on some lipstick, exchanged his robe for a nurse's costume, and started advocating chaos?

Spoiler:
teehehe u see wut i did thur

Lucien
"More security droids" is a pretty poor excuse as to why they should leave a stunned Jedi Master (who himself just practically walked through said droids)

Indeed, what could have prompted Palpatine to assume that an unconscious Jedi Master might be burdensome when confronted with security droids while stranded on on a heavily damaged enemy ship in the middle of a war zone.

He lacks your tremendous tactical intuition.

Lucien
and Anakin's best friend to die. And then, after those very cold and shocking instances, he starts spouting off Sith legends. Not a single alarm went off in Anakin's head? Not a klaxon, not a siren, not a shout, not even a mental Clippit notifying him of something odd?

And who's to say that Anakin was informed of Dooku's claim about Darth Sidious? What basis has he for these klaxons to blare?

Lucien
Automatically? Hellz no. Keep it in mind? Yeah.

So three years later, when they start to feel, as Mace puts, that "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor", no one thought that maybe they should take some serious steps to getting to the bottom of this? Even if Palpatine wasn't the Sith, and he was just being controlled by it, 'better safe than sorry' doesn't cross their minds? 'He's one we could scratch off the list of subjects' (he should be #1 on the list, frankly if the Dark Side "surrounds him"😉. Keep Dooku's remark on the backburner, and when it comes to figuring out the whole "ever-more-powerful leader of the Republic is surrounded by the Dark Side"... a little midichlorian test wouldn't hurt.

True, it's not as though they'd grown suspicious enough to enact a top secret plan to exploit Anakin's proximity to Palpatine by using him as a spy or to monitor all of his dealings.

That probably would have been a pivotal plot point in the film in addition to being an overall positive addition to the narrative, illustrating that the Jedi were hardly oblivious to Palpatine's machinations, that they detected something more than a little off about the guy, and were prepared to take action short of flying off the handle and arresting him on hearsay and suspicion.

Lucien
Even on Mas Amedda. Also--and this one is more of a character deficieny than plot hole--remember the cringeworthy scene in AotC when the two of them manipulated Jar Jar in to giving the Chancellor 'emergency powers'? Not one person, not one Jedi noticed the deceptive tones in their exchange? A deception which lead to only the first of many 'emergency powers' being put in to the hands of one man? No alarms went off?

True, and they'd have ample reason to be suspicious. According to the film, Palpatine was delaying the vote for the Military Creation Act as long as possible in an effort to prolong negotiations rather than see a military build up, which is a painfully obvious attempt to orchestrate a military build up.

It's similar to how real world politicians with militant agendas tend to propose cuts to the defense budget. Makes perfect sense, no?

Lucien
You're darn right it does. But what the mention of Sifo Dyas doesn't do is eliminate the involvement of Sifo Dyas. The movie introduces him, tells us what he did, and tells us he's dead. The movie doesn't tell us who he is, why he did it, or how he died. That's a whopper of a hole to leave unfilled.

Why is this information necessary? We're told he was a Jedi Master who died almost ten years before and that he issued the order for the Republic. That's like complaining about how we didn't learn how the Rebellion acquired the Death Star plans, therefore A New Hope sucks.

Lucien
Shortly after, Mace and Yoda fail to react with any emotion or surprise to the news that one of their own has created an army of clones. That's character deficiency.

Surprise?

oWg1fMeyoQM&feature=related

At 12:46-12:50, Yoda and Mace exchange looks of surprise. What did you expect? Doesn't one of the core Jedi precepts involve divorcing one's self from emotion?

Meanwhile, Luke and Leia, who didn't benefit from decades of Jedi driven stoicism, didn't so much as bat an eye when returning to the carcasses of dead guardians or watching a planet blow up. They reacted more to Kenobi's death, yet we don't write ANH off the table for such glaring inconsistencies.

Lucien
Sifo Dyas is never mentioned again beyond that scene. That's bad writing.

Why does he need to be?

Lucien
They ignored what I just said about Sifo Dyas.

They tried to bring Fett in for questioning with respect to the origins of the army and the Kaminoan administrators were clearly in the dark about it, since they assumed Sifo-Dyas had the authorization of the Council and Senate, which Mace denies having given. With Fett and Sifo-Dyas both dead, what else was there to follow?

Lucien
They ignored the fact that a suspected Sith Lord was on the loose in TPM (they made a promise of "all their resources" but in reality they did nothing at all).

TPM ends with Mace and Yoda discussing the existence of the second Sith. Again, what trail was there to follow and how are you certain that leads weren't investigated?

Lucien
They ignored the deception of Jar Jar, despite being present to hear it.

My own glib remarks aside, the film indicates Palpatine spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to delay the passage of the Military Creation Act and continuing to pursue negotiations with the separatists. Why would they suspect his words to Jar Jar? Did I miss the part where he waved his hand and said "You will give me emergency powers" or is this a conclusion drawn as a member of the audience?

Lucien
They ignored their own advice and permitted Anakin, whom they predicted was headed for "grave danger" to become a Jedi (for absolutely no reason at all).

Only if Kenobi's promise to train him without their approval and the existence of the second Sith Lord don't count as reasons. Forgive me for failing to see the wisdom in loosing an impressionable adolescent with the highest midi-chlorian count on record into the galaxy without supervision or training.

Lucien
They then ignored the fact that this boy with the highest midichlorian count dwells on his mother---and did nothing to set his dwellings to ease.

On lawless Tatooine where Republic laws weren't recognized? What would you have had them do?

Lucien
They (and by 'they' I mean Obi-Wan specifically) totally and utterly failed to see the danger in Anakin "thinking about Padme every day since they last met" and then pairing him alone with her as her guardian protector.

Padme, the career politician who blew Anakin off, dismissing him as an eternal "little boy" when they reunited? He had no reason to conclude she'd stoke the proverbial fires.

Lucien
They also failed to see the horrendous sense in sending a high-profile politician in to hiding from assassination in the most obvious place.

The attempt occurred on Coruscant, not Naboo. She was an ambassador who was returned to her sovereign system under the protection of the Jedi, which isn't an illogical move.

Lucien
They failed to possess common sense when it came time to confronting Palpatine (at night, all alone, in an isolated chamber, on the enemy's private turf).

What reinforcements would they have drawn on? Palpatine was the commander-in-chief and Windu had no proof of Palpatine's treachery beyond Skywalker's word. He had no reason to conclude manpower was an issue, since he made the attempt with three other Jedi Council Masters.

Lucien
They failed to see the advantage of sending both Obi-Wan and his wartime partner and best friend, Anakin, with him to confront the enemy's leader (a slippery, cunning 'monster' who had successfully killed Jedi before and escaped both Obi and Anakin not long ago).

That might have to do with the fact that Anakin was involved in an even more critical operation with monitoring the Chancellor.

Lucien
They ignored all the flashing red DANGER signs when they appointed Anakin to spy on Palpatine, a man surrounded by the Dark Side who has been Anakin's friend and confidante for years (Mace even flat out admits to this being DANGERous and says he doesn't trust Anakin, but they go right ahead anyway).

Because Obi-Wan, who knows Anakin better than any of them and whose loyalty is not known to be compromised, vouched for him. Dangerous? Certainly. Risky? Absolutely. But arbitrary? Hardly.

It's a serendipitous moment when I log in at TFN to find that Raynor was posting just today on this issue. I'm going to see if I can lure him here to combat ye RLM stalwarts.

That and I'm wayyyy behind on my Forceborn chapter. 😬

Er, I think that might get a little awkward. I mean he obviously put alot of effort into it. I'd be hesitant to criticise it to his face (figuratively speaking).

Well you could be a little gentler?

I just watched and enjoyed the film without all those deep thoughts about small details and all made sense. -_-

Alright then, here we go.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Palpatine provided clever rationalizations for both orders. Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive and Anakin had tapped into the dark side at that point in time. As we know from Return of the Jedi, it's painfully easy to manipulate obscenely angry Force users. There is precedent.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Indeed, what could have prompted Palpatine to assume that an unconscious Jedi Master might be burdensome when confronted with security droids while stranded on on a heavily damaged enemy ship in the middle of a war zone.

He lacks your tremendous tactical intuition.

That should not matter, regardless. Once again, Palpatine gives Anakin a very rushed and urgent order to leave his unconscious friend to die without any attempt to help him or even wake him up. That's suspicious.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
And who's to say that Anakin was informed of Dooku's claim about Darth Sidious? What basis has he for these klaxons to blare?

Palpatine is informing Anakin about Sith legends and making unsubtle remarks about death prevention, power and the inability to get ahold of those things as a Jedi. That's suspicious.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
True, it's not as though they'd grown suspicious enough to enact a top secret plan to exploit Anakin's proximity to Palpatine by using him as a spy or to monitor all of his dealings.

That probably would have been a pivotal plot point in the film in addition to being an overall positive addition to the narrative, illustrating that the Jedi were hardly oblivious to Palpatine's machinations, that they detected something more than a little off about the guy, and were prepared to take action short of flying off the handle and arresting him on hearsay and suspicion.

That's moronic.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
True, and they'd have ample reason to be suspicious. According to the film, Palpatine was delaying the vote for the Military Creation Act as long as possible in an effort to prolong negotiations rather than see a military build up, which is a painfully obvious attempt to orchestrate a military build up.

It's similar to how real world politicians with militant agendas tend to propose cuts to the defense budget. Makes perfect sense, no?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Why is this information necessary? We're told he was a Jedi Master who died almost ten years before and that he issued the order for the Republic. That's like complaining about how we didn't learn how the Rebellion acquired the Death Star plans, therefore A New Hope sucks.

Holy shit.

The Clone Army that was created at around the same time as the Battle of Naboo, before the Separatist crisis, is important. It was ordered long before conflict was on the table. It was done on behalf of a Jedi Master who was then shortly afterward killed. You don't introduce a major mystery like that in to your film and then not explain it. This is shitty writing. It's like if Citizen Kane never brought up what 'Rosebud' was again. Or if The Usual Suspects never bothered to tell us what was up with this Keyser Soze mystery character.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
At 12:46-12:50, Yoda and Mace exchange looks of surprise. What did you expect? Doesn't one of the core Jedi precepts involve divorcing one's self from emotion?

Meanwhile, Luke and Leia, who didn't benefit from decades of Jedi driven stoicism, didn't so much as bat an eye when returning to the carcasses of dead guardians or watching a planet blow up. They reacted more to Kenobi's death, yet we don't write ANH off the table for such glaring inconsistencies.

You know what the entire Jedi Order did about the fact that one of their own Jedi Master ordered the creation of an army of clones formed from the DNA of a bounty hunter who is likely involved in the attempted assassination of a major political figure who opposes armies? A Jedi Master who was then killed? Ten years before the Military Creation Act?

Absolutely nothing. This is shitty writing.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Why does he need to be?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
They tried to bring Fett in for questioning with respect to the origins of the army and the Kaminoan administrators were clearly in the dark about it, since they assumed Sifo-Dyas had the authorization of the Council and Senate, which Mace denies having given. With Fett and Sifo-Dyas both dead, what else was there to follow?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
TPM ends with Mace and Yoda discussing the existence of the second Sith. Again, what trail was there to follow and how are you certain that leads weren't investigated?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
My own glib remarks aside, the film indicates Palpatine spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to delay the passage of the Military Creation Act and continuing to pursue negotiations with the separatists. Why would they suspect his words to Jar Jar? Did I miss the part where he waved his hand and said "You will give me emergency powers" or is this a conclusion drawn as a member of the audience?

So to recap, it was their blatantly obvious tone of voice more than the words. And it was the fact the Jedi Masters of all people let it sail over their head. This is one is character deficiency.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Only if Kenobi's promise to train him without their approval and the existence of the second Sith Lord don't count as reasons. Forgive me for failing to see the wisdom in loosing an impressionable adolescent with the highest midi-chlorian count on record into the galaxy without supervision or training.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
On lawless Tatooine where Republic laws weren't recognized? What would you have had them do?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Padme, the career politician who blew Anakin off, dismissing him as an eternal "little boy" when they reunited? He had no reason to conclude she'd stoke the proverbial fires.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The attempt occurred on Coruscant, not Naboo. She was an ambassador who was returned to her sovereign system under the protection of the Jedi, which isn't an illogical move.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
What reinforcements would they have drawn on? Palpatine was the commander-in-chief and Windu had no proof of Palpatine's treachery beyond Skywalker's word. He had no reason to conclude manpower was an issue, since he made the attempt with three other Jedi Council Masters.

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
That might have to do with the fact that Anakin was involved in an even more critical operation with monitoring the Chancellor.

Hey, how about they send Mace with him? Or one of those other guys on the Council who never get any lines? How about just sending more than one Jedi?

Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Because Obi-Wan, who knows Anakin better than any of them and whose loyalty is not known to be compromised, vouched for him. Dangerous? Certainly. Risky? Absolutely. But arbitrary? Hardly.

Stupid, stupid character.

Originally posted by Arhael
I just watched and enjoyed the film without all those deep thoughts about small details and all made sense. -_-

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's probably the only way it can be enjoyed. It's why children like them so much.

Generally, people don't go in such deep analysis regardless of age.
And it's a bit hard to explain every single detail in two hours.

The analysis is an explanation as to why it's not enjoyable, and unfortunately there's not some core, lone reason--it's a plethora of factors. But the immediate sense of disappointment and dislike doesn't require explanation. It's like taking a bite of something you find disgusting: you can't explain it right away, but you know it's still disgusting.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Sadly, that may not be true. Yoda, Mace, I think Ki-Adi, and maybe another was present to hear Palpatine's and Amedda's extremely obvious ploy on Jar Jar. Not an eyebrow was raised that day.

Actually you'd be surprised how many people watched TPM and AOTC (non SW fans) and had no idea Palpatine was the main villain.

Maybe suspicions rose about his political oppurtunism, but thats something Obi-Wan had already commented on at the beginning of AOTC to Anakin. They simply put it down to politicians being crafty like that. Not exactly reason to suspect him being a Sith Lord or anything close to that conclusion....

... That is until of course Dooku TOLD Obi-Wan that the Dark Lord of the Sith himself was IN CHARGE of the Republic!!! That bit kind of gets to me, that Dooku even TOLD THEM.. But they basically just ignored him!

I think it was given away rather conclusively in TPM's penultimate scene:

YouTube video

^ I know it was. Im just pointing out that a lot of non SW fans did not get that until ROTS. Lol I even knew a SW fan who didn't get it at the time of TPM believe it or not.

My question is, why is Anakin still wearing that same ****ing slave outfit that he's had since Tatooine, at that point in the movie. You'd think that by they time they got to Couracant to show him to the Jedi Council, they would have bought him some ****ing clothes while they were there.

George probably thought that we'd forget who he was if he changed his outfit.

This is why to me, there are a LOT of trilogies that are easily superior to either of the star wars trilogies.. Or if that didn't make any sense, I mean that the original trilogies weren't even in my top 2.. LOTR will always and forever be the best trilogy.

Imo The OT trumps LOTR. And if you see the impact of the OT on popular culture back in the 70's and 80's and compare that to the impact of LOTR in the last decade, well it's not even a contest.

So whoever made the bigger impact (by dint of simply existing first) is the inherently superior one? Try using a Gutenburg press for your mass production and see if you miss the industrial sized modern equipment.

LotR is technically and artistically superior to the OT, with better dialogue, writing, story, acting, set design, etc. Two different genres of film, two different time periods of production, two different trilogies all together. But I can sit down and enjoy them equally. I'd have to flip a coin to call favorites.