Originally posted by Borbarad
Technically spoken, he mostly quotes Sidious on Sidious own knowledge. That while our favorite Dark Lord obviously makes some probably false assumptions, as least when the knowledge Sadow is concerned, because:[list=1]
[*] Sadow left the holocron behind when escaping to Yavin 4, given that the thing was later found by Nadd and led him to the planet.
And? I'm noticing a shift in narrative. Sadow wasn't a powerful, knowledglable practitioner of the Dark Side before the Hyperspace War?
[*] Given that Sadow did continue his experiments on Yavin 4, it's virtually impossible for all of his knowledge to be stored within the holocron.
Forgot to note he left a variety of scrolls there? And Nadd made his own Holocron after he left Naga Sadow's tutelage
[*] Combining those facts, it's also completely impossible for Sidious, to accurately judge the extend of Sadow's knowledge, when said holocron is the only source for that knowledge. How should he know, whether Sadow shared 10, 50 or 100 percent of his knowledge, when he can just access a single source? Validation of that idea would be impossible.
[/list]
You also neglect to note that Palpatine is able to accurately judge what Kun and Nadd knew of Sadow's knowledge. There're also all of Sadow's old scrolls...which were extracted by Palpatine following archaeological excavations of Yavin 4.
Also, let's note the opening of the Telos Holocron from JvS:
[b] "All that we know, we shall share freely with you. All we ask in return is that you keep an open mind, and use this knowledge for the benefit of only one being: yourself. It is not out of greed that we ask this of you, but out of respect. Of all those who might have stumbled upon this device, no one is more deserving of our knowledge than you."
"All we know, we shall share freely with you."
That means Sadow and Bane. This isn't covering how Palpatine had access to the spirits of Sadow's contemporaries or successors on Korriban, how we'v eseen from Bane that a strong enough Dark Lord can insure the Gatekeeper has no choice but to share their knowledge, we have Palpatine have collected Sadow's scrolls and the like hidden by Kun before his demise, Freedon Nadd's knowledge via Bane (who transcribed it into his Holocorn, along with everything he learned from Revan)
That aside: If that holocron was passed down from Sith Lord to Sith Lord over a time span of several millenia, how could Sidious even hope mastering anything contained within? [/B]
It took Bane the span of a couple...what, weeks to master everything in Revan's? How long did it take him to master the knowledge in Nadd's, or Belia Darzu's? Far less.
On that subject, we saw with Andeddu he can just tear knowledge out of the recipient.
I swear, Kun can master Sadow's teachings in six months, but Palpatine, with decades can't do the same.
when he says flat out Sadow was open and generous with his knowledge.
And really, if he has access to Bane's Holocron alone, then he has access to all of Bane's knowledge. And Revan's. And Nadd's. And Andeddu's. And Darzu's. Which means he'd have access to the store of knowledge from Malachor V that Revan knew. And Nadd, as he had Adas's. And so on and so forth.
Yeah, that doesn't fly. when a gatekeeper is created, they essentially leave themselves behind, creating an AI based upon themselves at the tume. Everything the Sith Lord knows is in there, hence why it's said they record the 'totality' of their knowledge, like Nadd did.
Bane also said he understands the power of other things, even if he isn't a man of them. Take, for example, sorcery. He still knows its power. He still transcribed all of it into a book for Zannah. He even recorded Revan in there from his own memories.
Originally posted by Lightsnakethis is blatant nonsense to attempt to save a losing argument. A sith lord leaving everything is either an exception to the rule, or doesn't happen at all until you can prove it with logical reasoning and not biased speculation and reaching. You've lost this argument.
Yeah, that doesn't fly. when a gatekeeper is created, they essentially leave themselves behind, creating an AI based upon themselves at the tume. Everything the Sith Lord knows is in there, hence why it's said they record the 'totality' of their knowledge, like Nadd did.
Bane also said he understands the power of other things, even if he isn't a man of them. Take, for example, sorcery. He still knows its power. He still transcribed all of it into a book for Zannah. He even recorded Revan in there from his own memories. [/B]Bane's info on sith sorcery was a small part of what Zannah knew.
So let's recap here. After pages of the same nonsense, you've yet to establish the following:
1. Sidious' knowledge of sith sorcery is on par with Zannah's.
2. One has to master a holocron to be its gatekeeper.
3. Sadow had any access to Adas' holocron.
4. Learning from Sadow's holocron provided more information than learning from Sadow himself.
5. Either Bane or Vader studied Adas' holocron.
I'll save you the trouble of #5 because you'll tell me "Sidious has studied everything in sith holocrons", which would be unprovable and flat out wrong. Because you know, Bane knew essence transfer and if he included it in his holocron or if Palpatine studied everything in holocrons, then he wouldn't have needed to learn essence transfer from a jedi holocron later on in life.
Let's go with at least one of these to make it easier for you.
Originally posted by Q99
Hrm, yes.Does make one wonder about why people so value having multiple holocrons, though. Perhaps the 'crons themselves decide to only release some info?
Well not all the holocrons have the same stuff in them. Bane noted that Belia Darzu's holocron mostly had stuff that he'd seen in Nadds, but not everything. Either that or it was Nadds to Revans.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
this is blatant nonsense to attempt to save a losing argument. A sith lord leaving everything is either an exception to the rule, or doesn't happen at all until you can prove it with logical reasoning and not biased speculation and reaching. You've lost this argument.
You're establishing this rule from....where precisely? They record themselves into their holocrons as an AI
Bane's info on sith sorcery was a small part of what Zannah knew.
No, it wasn't. In Rule of Two, it was all she knew. She had a few surprises that she picked up elsewhere,
So let's recap here. After pages of the same nonsense, you've yet to establish the following:1. Sidious' knowledge of sith sorcery is on par with Zannah's.
Zannah has shown...two Sith sorcery techniques. Palpatine has all of Bane's knowledge, and the Telos Holocron.
Wow, that's already better
2. One has to master a holocron to be its gatekeeper.
Yeah, that's kind of how they accept you.
3. Sadow had any access to Adas' holocron.
Yes. It was passed down to [b]the Dark Lord of the Sith when the Dark Jedi conquered the Sith
4. Learning from Sadow's holocron provided more information than learning from Sadow himself.
Why, if only Palpatine had both Sadow's holocron and all the knowledge of freedon Nadd, Sadow's student, as well as scrolls written by Sadow himself.
Wait. He does.
5. Either Bane or Vader studied Adas' holocron.
I'll save you the trouble of #5 because you'll tell me "Sidious has studied everything in sith holocrons", which would be unprovable and flat out wrong. Because you know, Bane knew essence transfer and if he included it in his holocron or if Palpatine studied everything in holocrons, then he wouldn't have needed to learn essence transfer from a jedi holocron later on in life.
Yeah, bout that? Kind of an issue as Bane died very shortly after he learned the essence transfer, meaning it'd be lost with him.
Originally posted by Q99
Hrm, yes.Does make one wonder about why people so value having multiple holocrons, though. Perhaps the 'crons themselves decide to only release some info?
Wouldn't knowledge have a lot to do with who's doing the teaching? Plus, depending on what different Sith know? I'm sure a Holocron made by Karness Muur would be different from one made by Ajunta Pall
Plus, not every Sith freely shares knowledge. Holocrons can, if they deem the recipient unworthy, refuse, like Nihilus, Andeddu and Bane did to Krayt.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're establishing this rule from....where precisely? They record themselves into their holocrons as an AI
No, it wasn't. In Rule of Two, it was all she knew. She had a few surprises that she picked up elsewhere,
Zannah has shown...two Sith sorcery techniques. Palpatine has all of Bane's knowledge, and the Telos Holocron.
Wow, that's already better
Yeah, that's kind of how they accept you.
Yes. It was passed down to the Dark Lord of the Sith when the Dark Jedi conquered the Sith
Why, if only Palpatine had both Sadow's holocron and all the knowledge of freedon Nadd, Sadow's student, as well as scrolls written by Sadow himself.
Wait. He does.
When did I ever make this claim?
Bane would have the knowledge from Nadd's holocron because Nadd is stated to have recorded the totality of his own knowledge therein. And Bane recorded his in his Holocron
Yeah, bout that? Kind of an issue as Bane died very shortly after he learned the essence transfer, meaning it'd be lost with him. [/B]Unfortunately LS, Bane was still working on his holocron around the time he acquired the knowledge of essence transfer, so this just goes back to the belief that all holocron gatekeepers input all of their knowledge in the holocrons and Palpatine has studied all of the information he possesses. Again, terribly weak argument.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
They also record whatever they wanted.
And generally, it's stated they record the totality of their knowledge.
No, it's mentioned at the end of Rule of Two that she had learned everything that Bane gave her but went outside of him and found her own sources for the most esoteric techniques, and she muses that Bane had no idea just how far she's come.
Which is exactly what I just said. She had a few surprised.
Sorry lightsnake, possessing potential knowledge and actually having the knowledge are two different things, but I like how you slipped that in there hoping nobody would notice the stupidity. Zannah had the gift of esoteric sorcery techniques.. Palpatine had Bane's lack of sorcery knowledge (assuming he studied most of it). Wonderful argument though.
Okay.
Bane didn't lack knowledge on sorcery. He lacked skill with sorcery. He transcribed all the spells for Zannah to study. Palpatine had access to far more, and given the comments on his mastering every technique in the book by Dark Empire?
Also, what the hell is with this? Does Palpatine gather knowledge and just store it? He's always talking about how knowledge is power.
Furthmore, I think you might have missed something vital:
[b]The Telos Holocron says flat out it will share all of its knowledge with the user.
Palpatine has access to more than Zannah ever dreamed of, and from the statements and his own words, we know he made good use of it. P
Still won't prove it eh?
Prove WHAT? The Gatekeepers are sentient. Palpatine is the acknowledged Dark Lord. It took Bane a few weeks to master everything in Revan and Kun less than six months to master Sadow's teachings.
Source? Quote? Proof Sadow studied it?
If he's the Dark Lord, he had it. And Evil Never Dies states directly it was passed down from Dark Lord to Dark Lord
Why if only Sadow recorded all of his knowledge in a holocron and if Nadd included everything in his holocron, and we assume (keyword: reach) that Bane included everything about Nadd in his holocron, and we assume Palpatine studied it all, then you might have an argument. One day.
Bane is stated to have included all his knowledge in it
A four-sided crystal pyramid small enough to be held in the palm, the
Holocron contained the sum of all Bane's knowledge and understanding.
Everything he had learned about the ways of the dark side—all his
teachings, all his philosophies—had been transferred into the Holocron,
recorded for all eternity. It was his legacy, a way to share an entire lifetime
of wisdom with those who would follow him in the line of Sith Masters
From Rule of Two?
The ancient Masters of the dark side had used Holocrons to store all their
wisdom, knowledge, and secrets. A Holocron could contain ancient rituals
of devastating power, or the keys to unlocking the magics of ancient Sith
sorcerers, or even avatars that simulated the personality of the Holocron's
original creator. The information inside was so valuable that for many
centuries Holocrons had been the single most valuable tool in passing on
the legacy of the great Sith Lords to future generations.
Note 'all'
And hey, wait, there's more on Sadow!
But the orbalisk research was only the beginning. Freedon Nadd had been
a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the
former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great,
it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the
dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and
teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow
and taking his place.
And on Belia Darzu, to drive the point home:
Belia had successfully created her own
Holocron. And there was strong evidence to support the theory that the
Holocron she created-the repository of all her knowledge-was still hidden
somewhere in her stronghold on Tython.
What ambiguity is there at this point?
By comparing the knowledge Zannah had, to the knowledge sources Palpatine possesses. Try and keep up.
Oh, right, Palpatine didn't study the damned things he had in his possession, despite stating flat out he had the knowledge in his keeping and Plagueis had him accessing the Sith holocrons which would include Bane's
Source? Quote?
See above
Unfortunately LS, Bane was still working on his holocron around the time he acquired the knowledge of essence transfer, so this just goes back to the belief that all holocron gatekeepers input all of their knowledge in the holocrons and Palpatine has studied all of the information he possesses. Again, terribly weak argument. [/B]
A
Bane created his own Holocron prior to the events of Dynasty of Evil. He did not know essence transfer until he tore it out of Andeddu. Later on in Dynasty of Evil.
In the first chapter of DoE he meditate on his greatest treasure being his Holocron. The sum of all his knowledge
Oh, know the final death knell to your theory? Sadow isn't the Gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. Palpatine is instead the one who transcribed all his teachings into the Telos Holocron from Sadow's own Holocron.
How could he do this if he hadn't learned what Sadow how to offer? Palpatine also transcribed all of Bane's teachings into the Telos Holocron, and Revan's as well
Originally posted by LightsnakeYou keep saying it's stated as if I'm suddenly going to stop asking you for sources.
And generally, it's stated they record the totality of their knowledge.
Which is exactly what I just said. She had a few surprised.It was much more than a few.
Okay.
Bane didn't lack knowledge on sorcery. He lacked skill with sorcery. He transcribed all the spells for Zannah to study. Palpatine had access to far more, and given the comments on his mastering every technique in the book by Dark Empire?
Also, what the hell is with this? Does Palpatine gather knowledge and just store it? He's always talking about how knowledge is power.
Furthmore, I think you might have missed something vital:
The Telos Holocron says flat out it will share all of its knowledge with the user.
Palpatine has access to more than Zannah ever dreamed of, and from the statements and his own words, we know he made good use of it.
Prove WHAT? The Gatekeepers are sentient. Palpatine is the acknowledged Dark Lord. It took Bane a few weeks to master everything in Revan and Kun less than six months to master Sadow's teachings.
If he's the Dark Lord, he had it. And Evil Never Dies states directly it was passed down from Dark Lord to Dark Lord
Bane is stated to have included all his knowledge in it
A four-sided crystal pyramid small enough to be held in the palm, the
Holocron contained the sum of all Bane's knowledge and understanding.
Everything he had learned about the ways of the dark side—all his
teachings, all his philosophies—had been transferred into the Holocron,
recorded for all eternity. It was his legacy, a way to share an entire lifetime
of wisdom with those who would follow him in the line of Sith Masters
From Rule of Two?You're kidding right? You're going to take one quote from wherever that is and apply it everywhere, when we haven't seen so much as an iota of evidence of ALL a gatekeeper's knowledge being included, rather the opposite? You're really reaching LS. If your quote was valid (it isn't), then Revan's teachings which I would think exceed those of Nadd, wouldn't have been mastered in 6 years while Nadd's took a decade. If you ever get around to proving all of a gatekeeper's knowledge is included, aside from an obscure quote, you'll have to prove the level of mastery someone with access achieved.
The ancient Masters of the dark side had used Holocrons to store all their
wisdom, knowledge, and secrets. A Holocron could contain ancient rituals
of devastating power, or the keys to unlocking the magics of ancient Sith
sorcerers, or even avatars that simulated the personality of the Holocron's
original creator. The information inside was so valuable that for many
centuries Holocrons had been the single most valuable tool in passing on
the legacy of the great Sith Lords to future generations.Note 'all'
But the orbalisk research was only the beginning. Freedon Nadd had beenOk, your first successful attempt at making a valid argument with a valid quote. So we know Nadd's holocrons contained all of Sadow's teachings. Did they contain all of Nadd's teachings or are you going to go back to that one obscure quote?
a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the
former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great,
it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the
dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and
teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow
and taking his place.
And on Belia Darzu, to drive the point home:
Belia had successfully created her own
Holocron. And there was strong evidence to support the theory that the
Holocron she created-the repository of all her knowledge-was still hidden
somewhere in her stronghold on Tython.What ambiguity is there at this point?
Oh, right, Palpatine didn't study the damned things he had in his possession, despite stating flat out he had the knowledge in his keeping and Plagueis had him accessing the Sith holocrons which would include Bane's
Bane created his own Holocron prior to the events of Dynasty of Evil. He did not know essence transfer until he tore it out of Andeddu. Later on in Dynasty of Evil.Which is irrelevant because he was constantly updating his holocron.
In the first chapter of DoE he meditate on his greatest treasure being his Holocron. The sum of all his knowledgeBane was a preacher on the level of Revan. His knowledge would most likely be his various philosophies on the new sith, as well as the old sith. He was also a historian. So what did he put into his holocron? A bunch of techniques? And again, if he kept updating all of information and if Palpatine had to learn essence transfer elsewhere, it stands that Palpatine didn't master everything he had in his possession, let alone study everything.
Oh, know the final death knell to your theory? Sadow isn't the Gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. Palpatine is instead the one who transcribed all his teachings into the Telos Holocron from Sadow's own Holocron.
How could he do this if he hadn't learned what Sadow how to offer? Palpatine also transcribed all of Bane's teachings into the Telos Holocron, and Revan's as well [/B]Another strawman. Nobody is claiming he didn't learn anything from Sadow because that would contradict Jedi vs. Sith. The claim is there's no proof that he learned everything. There is also no proof that all of Bane's teachings and Revan's went into the Telos holocron, or that Palpatine mastered them. This is another argument void of any real damning evidence and full of reaching. If you're going to continue going down this path LS, I suggest you not write a book each time, using the method of "I'll just keep posting and adding more and more until he gives up" method.
I bet I know what'll turn you right back on babe.
[i]Originally posted by Lightsnake
And generally, it's stated they record the totality of their knowledge.
Which is exactly what I just said. She had a few surprised.
Okay.
Bane didn't lack knowledge on sorcery. He lacked skill with sorcery. He transcribed all the spells for Zannah to study. Palpatine had access to far more, and given the comments on his mastering every technique in the book by Dark Empire?
Also, what the hell is with this? Does Palpatine gather knowledge and just store it? He's always talking about how knowledge is power.
Furthmore, I think you might have missed something vital:
[b]The Telos Holocron says flat out it will share all of its knowledge with the user.
Palpatine has access to more than Zannah ever dreamed of, and from the statements and his own words, we know he made good use of it. P
Prove WHAT? The Gatekeepers are sentient. Palpatine is the acknowledged Dark Lord. It took Bane a few weeks to master everything in Revan and Kun less than six months to master Sadow's teachings.
If he's the Dark Lord, he had it. And Evil Never Dies states directly it was passed down from Dark Lord to Dark Lord
Bane is stated to have included all his knowledge in it
A four-sided crystal pyramid small enough to be held in the palm, the
Holocron contained the sum of all Bane's knowledge and understanding.
Everything he had learned about the ways of the dark side—all his
teachings, all his philosophies—had been transferred into the Holocron,
recorded for all eternity. It was his legacy, a way to share an entire lifetime
of wisdom with those who would follow him in the line of Sith Masters
From Rule of Two?
The ancient Masters of the dark side had used Holocrons to store all their
wisdom, knowledge, and secrets. A Holocron could contain ancient rituals
of devastating power, or the keys to unlocking the magics of ancient Sith
sorcerers, or even avatars that simulated the personality of the Holocron's
original creator. The information inside was so valuable that for many
centuries Holocrons had been the single most valuable tool in passing on
the legacy of the great Sith Lords to future generations.
Note 'all'
And hey, wait, there's more on Sadow!
But the orbalisk research was only the beginning. Freedon Nadd had been
a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the
former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great,
it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the
dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and
teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow
and taking his place.
And on Belia Darzu, to drive the point home:
Belia had successfully created her own
Holocron. And there was strong evidence to support the theory that the
Holocron she created-the repository of all her knowledge-was still hidden
somewhere in her stronghold on Tython.
What ambiguity is there at this point?
Oh, right, Palpatine didn't study the damned things he had in his possession, despite stating flat out he had the knowledge in his keeping and Plagueis had him accessing the Sith holocrons which would include Bane's
See above
A
Bane created his own Holocron prior to the events of Dynasty of Evil. He did not know essence transfer until he tore it out of Andeddu. Later on in Dynasty of Evil.
In the first chapter of DoE he meditate on his greatest treasure being his Holocron. The sum of all his knowledge
Oh, know the final death knell to your theory? Sadow isn't the Gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. Palpatine is instead the one who transcribed all his teachings into the Telos Holocron from Sadow's own Holocron.
How could he do this if he hadn't learned what Sadow how to offer? Palpatine also transcribed all of Bane's teachings into the Telos Holocron, and Revan's as well [/B] [/i]
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You keep saying it's stated as if I'm suddenly going to stop asking you for sources.
Already stated them
It was much more than a few.
Name them
You need to quit using that last quote as a desperation because I'm going to discount it and nobody is going to have a problem with it. It's hyperbole, it's not possible, and therefore you don't need to use it.
How is it hyperbole exactly? Can we define this?
And this is basically "I decide what is canon."
How unseemly
I understand at this point you feel you have to but it just doesn't work. Also, listen to what you're saying. Bane lacked [b]skill, but Palpatine had access. Finally, besides that one failure of a quote, there's no proof Palpatine had the sources nor the knowledge on the level of Zannah.
Right. He only had access to much more than Zannah did, his use of the Spell of Concealment dwarfs hers, he is also capable of much greater rituals and could use Sith Magic on a greater scale. (Given he wiped the minds of imperial city).
Again, when Darth Wyyrlok is shown to be a superior Sith sorcerer to Zatanna, any claims she's better than Palpatine need to be treated delicately
Yet there's no proof he studies everything he possesses. You don't need to play psychologist on this one.
Despite clear statements and indicaitons to the contrary.
This is tiresome. Do you have proof he has failed to take advantage of what was in his possession?
I'm sorry, and you equate this to "he mastered it"? You're reaching again, LS. Also, what is the exact quote?
"All we know we will share with you" and oh look, Palpatine is the one doing the sharing.
Palpatine had more overall access, we know his overall knowledge exceeds Zannah's by miles, and yet we're arguing sith sorcery. Stop with the misdirection.
Okay. Where's the evidence Zannah's sith sorcery exceeds his.
Zannah has shown...three spells?
Spell of Concealment. She used it to conceal herself from Jedi who had no idea she was there
Palpatine used it to conceal himself from the whole Jedi order.
Master everything from Revan? You mean a few sith techniques and sith philosophy? You DO realize he spent close to a decade studying Nadd's holocron, as well as Darzu's? And kun may have mastered one of Sadow's teachings, or a few but it certainly doesn't state all anywhere. No need to reach here.
To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron
surpassed those of the Academy’s entire archives. Revan had discovered
many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron’s avatar
explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind
around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so
dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he
would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on
sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth
later.
And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side
sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he’d
learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his
time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering
Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his
knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.
Yeah, I don't think Revan was lacking on knowledge.
And Kun states flat out he has to master Sadow's teachings. Or they'll destroy him
Quote please, stop just listing sources. You see, we have the GAOTS comic which shows him becoming Dark Lord, getting ready for battle, going to the Republic, coming back, and escaping to Yavin. If you could logically deduce at what point he had the holocron and/or at what point he studied it, I might cease to ignore this nonsense.
and? He's Dark Lord. There was still preparation before, and the trip over and all
1. What is this source.
2. Quantify Palpatine's mastery of the holocron, and not "Palpatine mastered everything he learned!!"
And right. Palpatine was some newb at being a Sith. From Dark Lord:
Sidious didn't have to imagine the content of the devices, because
his own Master, Darth Plagueis, had allowed him to master the contents of the actual
holocrons.
You're kidding right? You're going to take one quote from wherever that is and apply it everywhere, when we haven't seen so much as an iota of evidence of ALL a gatekeeper's knowledge being included, rather the opposite? You're really reaching LS. If your quote was valid (it isn't), then Revan's teachings which I would think exceed those of Nadd, wouldn't have been mastered in 6 years while Nadd's took a decade. If you ever get around to proving all of a gatekeeper's knowledge is included, aside from an obscure quote, you'll have to prove the level of mastery someone with access achieved.
I provide the quote and get a "YOU CAN'T USE IT!"
Hilarious.
Path of Destruction flat out says all of Revan's knowledge would belong to Bane, and he destroys it when he has nothing left to learn. When precisely did it say Nadd's 'took' a decade, by the way? Bane said it'd take a long time to learn all the secrets, but that's it.
[uote]
Ok, your first successful attempt at making a valid argument with a valid quote. So we know Nadd's holocrons contained all of Sadow's teachings. Did they contain all of Nadd's teachings or are you going to go back to that one obscure quote?[/Quote]
Yeah, they contained all of Nadd's as well. He's the Gatekeeper. And it says flat out all of Nadd's knowledge was recorded therein.
Also, Bane's entire purpose was to pass on everything he knew:
Was it possible there was some other essential element in the process that
he was missing? Was there one more secret waiting to be unlocked that
would finally allow him to create a Holocron so he could pass his wisdom
and knowledge on to his successors? Or was the failure in him? Did he
simply lack power? Was his command of the dark side somehow less than
that of the ancient Sith Lords like Freedon Nadd?
Furthermore, the Rite of Commencement records the gatekeeper's source's mind within the Holocron, meaning that everything they know to that point would be added.
The fact that you start talking about a holocron and conclude your sentence with evidence of her knowledge on a planet. I can't decide if that's irrelevant or reaching but you sure as hell are trying to pour everything you can into a post and have me go through it cataloging everything like a sexy, underpaid librarian. Nothing you said about Darzu is relevant to this discussion.
Oh, just yet ANOTHER Sith Lord who put all their knowledge into the Holocron. Fancy that.
Not only that, but 'her knowledge on a planet?' What? Where the hell did you get that from?
Which is irrelevant because he was constantly updating his holocron.
Provide evidence. He never had a chance to before he died anyways, so irrelevant. Set Harth stole Andeddu's holocron, as well
Bane was a preacher on the level of Revan. His knowledge would most likely be his various philosophies on the new sith, as well as the old sith. He was also a historian. So what did he put into his holocron? A bunch of techniques? And again, if he kept updating all of information and if Palpatine had to learn essence transfer elsewhere, it stands that Palpatine didn't master everything he had in his possession, let alone study everything.
He would have recorded all the powers of the Sith he'd learned from the others. All the rituals, the sorceries, his knowledge and philosophies, his personal histories and histories of the others, as well as the various powers of the dark Side.
And for the last time: he never even saw his Holocron again before he died after he stole that from Andeddu. Let's recap:
Bane leaves his and Zannah's estate
Bane finds Andeddu's Holocron on Prakith. He steals the knowledge from it.
Bane is captured and taken to Doan. Zannah pursues
Bane dies on Ambria.
Zannah would return and lay claim to Bane's Holocron.
Bane is stated to have put all his knowledge into the holocron, which means his knowledge on every dark side power, ritual and sorcery he knew.
Not sure you're understanding anything at this point, otherwise you would have held off the pointless gloating. I don't recall every saying Sadow was the gatekeeper of the holocron. Furthermore, Palpatine didn't inscribe all of his Sadow's teachings into the Telos holocron because he himself states Sadow was too generous with his knowledge and he wouldn't make the same mistake again.
JvS has Palpatine state Sadow left 'detailed recordings' of his work and secrets in his Holocron which Palpatine is now recording into the Telos Holocron, but says he'll hold on to the majority of Sadow's knowldge for the time being.
And a final blow to this irrelvant paragraph is the fact that Sadow was a sith alchemist, while we're discussing sith sorcery. The fact still remains that while Palpatine is miles and miles ahead of Zannah in the force, Zannah sure has the advantage in this particular field of sith knowledge, thanks to Nadd and wherever else she got her information.
Sadow was an alchemist AND a magician. Quote: "One of the most famous and earliest known sorcerers was the Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow"
who do you think taught Nadd sith sorcery? Tales From the Jedi describes Sadow as a powerful Sith magician.
I also find it interesting how you forget Palpatine had direct access to the spirits of Korriban. Many of the Dark Lords of early days? Sith magicians.
Another strawman. Nobody is claiming he didn't learn anything from Sadow because that would contradict Jedi vs. Sith. The claim is there's no proof that he learned everything. There is also no proof that all of Bane's teachings and Revan's went into the Telos holocron, or that Palpatine mastered them. This is another argument void of any real damning evidence and full of reaching. If you're going to continue going down this path LS, I suggest you not write a book each time, using the method of "I'll just keep posting and adding more and more until he gives up" method. [/B]
No proof he learned everything despite being the one to record all of Sadow and Nadd's teachings into the Telos Holocron.
If you're going to be this ridiculous, DS, do a better job.
Do you have evidence to contradict the basis of what he knew now? I'm just curious. I've provided my end
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? I'm noticing a shift in narrative. Sadow wasn't a powerful, knowledglable practitioner of the Dark Side before the Hyperspace War?
I'm noticing an instance of woeful ignorance. Of course Sadow was powerful before the Hyperspace War. The point is, that he invested decades or even centuries into studying / inventing more Dark Side lore, which means he became more knowledgeable and - by extend - more powerful, than he has been, when introducing knowledge to the holocron.
Forgot to note he left a variety of scrolls there? And Nadd made his own Holocron after he left Naga Sadow's tutelage
Did you forget how the Jedi essentially incinerated the surface of the planet, making it rather unlikely that Sadow's scrolls survived there? And Nadd left Sadow before having learned all he could from the Sith Lord and leaving the greater part of Sadows knowledge behind (guarded by the Sithwyrm that wasn't killed until Kun did visit the place). So neither did Sadow leave his entire knowledge behind, nor did Nadd ever have access to it.
You also neglect to note that Palpatine is able to accurately judge what Kun and Nadd knew of Sadow's knowledge. There're also all of Sadow's old scrolls...which were extracted by Palpatine following archaeological excavations of Yavin 4.
All of Sadow's old scrolls? Don't be dense, Lightsnake. It's virtual impossible for paper scrolls to survive an intense fire followed by four thousand years of enviromental influences. So Sidious could still just make a guess regarding the extend of Sadow's knowledge. Yet, he still considered that, what he had access to, as too dangerous to share it with other people. And where is your source that he found "all scroll"?
Also, let's note the opening of the Telos Holocron from JvS:"All that we know, we shall share freely with you. All we ask in return is that you keep an open mind, and use this knowledge for the benefit of only one being: yourself. It is not out of greed that we ask this of you, but out of respect. Of all those who might have stumbled upon this device, no one is more deserving of our knowledge than you."
"All we know, we shall share freely with you."
That means Sadow and Bane.
How about noting the context and not just the part of the quote that support your argument, Lightsnake? This is Sidious speaking as the keeper of the holocron. Shall we really trust the words of a Sith Lord attempting to convert another apprentice to the ways of the Dark Side? That appears to be somewhat ridiculous, especially, since Sidious, in the very same monologue proclaims the following:
"[...]I would be remiss to encourage your to believe I am or ever was your superior[...] - Darth Sidious / Palpatine, Telos Holocron, Jedi VS Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.155
Which is especially funny, since this statement is directed at the person accessing the holocron in context of that source - which would be Tionne Solusar. So are we to believe, that Tionne is equal to Sidious in terms of force abilities and the most worthy person ever to access the holocron, just because Sidious says so? That in context of the situation in wihch that monologue happens? I don't think so...
This isn't covering how Palpatine had access to the spirits of Sadow's contemporaries or successors on Korriban,
Who were rather capable of deciding for themselves, what kind of knowledge they'd like to give to Sidious and what to keep away from him. And that they did keep stuff away from him is rather obvious from the source material. Where is your point?
how we'v eseen from Bane that a strong enough Dark Lord can insure the Gatekeeper has no choice but to share their knowledge,
But they can obviously just share the knowledge the respective force user has introduced to the holocron. It also doesn't mean that Sidious ever forced information out of a holocron in that way.
we have Palpatine have collected Sadow's scrolls and the like hidden by Kun before his demise, Freedon Nadd's knowledge via Bane (who transcribed it into his Holocorn, along with everything he learned from Revan)
This presumes a perfect transportation of knowledge from one generation of force users to another which is contradicted by the source material. Nadd didn't learn everything from Sadow, Bane didn't learn everything from Nadd / Revan, Sidious didn't have access to all knowledge of his predecessors in the way you would like it.
It took Bane the span of a couple...what, weeks to master everything in Revan's? How long did it take him to master the knowledge in Nadd's, or Belia Darzu's? Far less.
On that subject, we saw with Andeddu he can just tear knowledge out of the recipient.
The point is, that there is nothing to suggest that Bane learned everything from Revan's holocron in the first place. Nor do we have proof that he learned "everything" from Nadd, Darzu or Andeddu. That's speculation, especially considering Bane's ignorance towards Sith Magic, which would at least have been part of the knowledge of Sadow (via Nadd) and Andeddu.
I swear, Kun can master Sadow's teachings in six months, but Palpatine, with decades can't do the same.
Who did ever proclaim that Kun mastered the entirety of Sadow's teachings? If I remember correctly, we once have Kun himself mentioning, that he learned the Sith magic aspects of Sadow's knowledge, right before inflicting force ownage on Alema Keto via Sith magic. And we have the narrator proclaiming, that Kun has gathered more knowledge than he could ever use, which doesn't have to be a reference to the entirety of Sadow's knowledge. Which would be rather odd anyway, provided that - at least to my knowledge - Kun did never access the holocron, in which Sidious later found Sadow's knowledge. Or did he?
That aside: Unlike Sidious, most other Sith Lord, specifically Bane and Kun, didn't have anything else to do but increasing their knowledge in the ways of the Sith. Sidious orchestrated a galactic war, manipulated two governments and had to fool the Jedi regarding his true nature, while training several apprentices. I don't see him having as much time to focus on the acquisition and practice of new knowledge in that period of his life at least.
when he says flat out Sadow was open and generous with his knowledge.
Yes. Sidious says so. Which kind of contradicts the statement above, that all Sith should (and will) share their knowledge freely, correct? 😉
And really, if he has access to Bane's Holocron alone, then he has access to all of Bane's knowledge. And Revan's. And Nadd's. And Andeddu's. And Darzu's. Which means he'd have access to the store of knowledge from Malachor V that Revan knew. And Nadd, as he had Adas's. And so on and so forth.
This argument follows the assumption that all of the knowledge of the listed force users made it into their holocrons and was then later stored in the next holocron by people who discovered it. In fact, this is contradicted by the events in the source material. For all of those people, it is highly unlikely, that they would hand out the entirety off their knowledge and, even assuming they did, that all of that knowledge made it to the next generation of Dark Siders.
It's unlikely that Nadd learned everything from Sadow or the holocron of Adas, making it impossible for him, to pass on the entirety of their knowledge to Kun / Alema / Satal / Ulic or Sidious.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm noticing an instance of woeful ignorance. Of course Sadow was powerful before the Hyperspace War. The point is, that he invested decades or even centuries into studying / inventing more Dark Side lore, which means he became more knowledgeable and - by extend - more powerful, than he has been, when introducing knowledge to the holocron.
You mean the knowledge that Freedon Nadd had in totality, and recorded in his own Holocron according to Rule of two?
Did you forget how the Jedi essentially incinerated the surface of the planet, making it rather unlikely that Sadow's scrolls survived there? And Nadd left Sadow before having learned all he could from the Sith Lord and leaving the greater part of Sadows knowledge behind (guarded by the Sithwyrm that wasn't killed until Kun did visit the place). So neither did Sadow leave his entire knowledge behind, nor did Nadd ever have access to it.
1. Kun left all that lore in a special isolation chamber guarded by the Night Beast. IT survived unscathed. Palpatine is said to have excavated and taken it.
2. Read what I put in, Nai:
But the orbalisk research was only the beginning. Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. [b]As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place.
We've known Nadd murdered Sadow for a long, long time.
So, yeah.
This is from Rule of Two, btw
All of Sadow's old scrolls? Don't be dense, Lightsnake. It's virtual impossible for paper scrolls to survive an intense fire
Okay, Nai. For starters:
Kun put them in a special chamber to be safeguarded so they'd be protected.
Also, I would point out these paper scrolls also survived in perfectly readable condition for at least 600 years.
followed by four thousand years of enviromental influences. So Sidious could still just make a guess regarding the extend of Sadow's knowledge. Yet, he still considered that, what he had access to, as too dangerous to share it with other people. And where is your source that he found "all scroll"?
Yeah, nice try, Nai. I'm so sure genius Sith alchemists don't take this into account when creating forbidden tomes and scrolls, which is why we've seen Andeddu's scrolls, despite being in a chamber filled with hot lava for thousands of years? Andeddu predates Nadd, by the by.
And must I point out again how Complete Locations says that Palpatine excavated those sites on Yavin IV? He recovered Sadow's scrolls that Kun left.
He also didn't consider it 'too dangerous,' he was cautioning against giving away knowledge too freely which he cautioned Sadow had done.
In the section on 'Selecting Apprentices,' Palpatine cautions against giving too much info at once. "My own master, Darth Plagueis, made the grave mistake of teaching me all he knew, at which point he became unnecessary."
Also, Palp doesn't need to make 'a guess' given Bane recorded everything he knew in his Holocron, which included everything Nadd did about Sadow
How about noting the context and not just the part of the quote that support your argument, Lightsnake? This is Sidious speaking as the keeper of the holocron. Shall we really trust the words of a Sith Lord attempting to convert another apprentice to the ways of the Dark Side? That appears to be somewhat ridiculous, especially, since Sidious, in the very same monologue proclaims the following:
Yeah, quote on Holocron Gatekeepers:
The gatekeepers of Sith Holocrons were known not to limit access to the holocron's information, often teaching the user things that were far too dangerous and advanced for them, that would more often than not lead to their destruction.
"[...]I would be remiss to encourage your to believe I am or ever was your superior[...] - Darth Sidious / Palpatine, Telos Holocron, Jedi VS Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.155
See abvoe.
Which is especially funny, since this statement is directed at the person accessing the holocron in context of that source - which would be Tionne Solusar. So are we to believe, that Tionne is equal to Sidious in terms of force abilities and the most worthy person ever to access the holocron, just because Sidious says so? That in context of the situation in wihch that monologue happens? I don't think so...
See above. The whole point is to encourage them to fall to the Dark Side, or destroy themselves. It also points out Sith Holocrons do not typically hold back teachings for this reason..
Who were rather capable of deciding for themselves, what kind of knowledge they'd like to give to Sidious and what to keep away from him. And that they did keep stuff away from him is rather obvious from the source material. Where is your point?
Right. Palpatine's flunky was capable of ripping information out of them when he wanted it. Palpatine himself was capable of controlling them for his rituals.
Bane can tear information out of Andeddu, but Palpatine can't remove any if they prove obstinate?
The lore
in the Temple fragments gave him the knowledge he needed to capture the corrupt spirit essence of Dathka Graush, to rip it free from its resting place in Korriban's Valley of Golg, to eventually extract and consume even the most secret lore of Sith alchemy that the ancient tyrant had carried to his grave.
(Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. That's Cronal)
But they can obviously just share the knowledge the respective force user has introduced to the holocron. It also doesn't mean that Sidious ever forced information out of a holocron in that way.
That's the thing: he likely never had to.
This presumes a perfect transportation of knowledge from one generation of force users to another which is contradicted by the source material. Nadd didn't learn everything from Sadow, Bane didn't learn everything from Nadd / Revan, Sidious didn't have access to all knowledge of his predecessors in the way you would like it.
Revan had discovered
many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron’s avatar
explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind
around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so
dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he
would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on
sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth
later.
And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side
sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he’d
learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his
time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering
Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his
knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.
ALL his knowledge. Bane had unlocked all the secrets of Darzu's and Nadd's as well. That took time, but he did it.
And also, he ripped Andeddu's knowledge out of his head.
I've already quoted factually that Nadd learned all of Sadow's knowledge from Rule of Two
The point is, that there is nothing to suggest that Bane learned everything from Revan's holocron in the first place.
"And soon, all his knowledge-his understanding of the Dark Side- would bleong to BAne."
Nor do we have proof that he learned "everything" from Nadd, Darzu or Andeddu. That's speculation, especially considering Bane's ignorance towards Sith Magic, which would at least have been part of the knowledge of Sadow (via Nadd) and Andeddu.
No. Bane knows of it. He is the one who transcribed it for Zannah to study. He has no SKILL with it. There's a difference.
Bane says it'd take months or years before he unlocked all the secrets of Nadd's holocron. Years later, he says he's done so. He tried to create his own after he'd done that.
For spells?
"You have the potential," Bane told her. From inside his robes he produced
a thin leather-bound manuscript. "Hidden deep inside the Holocron, I
discovered a list of powerful spells. I transcribed them into this tome. They
will help you focus and channel your power for maximum effect... but only
if you study them carefully."
He says he doesn't have a talent for sorcery like that, unlike Zannah. That's all.
Who did ever proclaim that Kun mastered the entirety of Sadow's teachings? If I remember correctly, we once have Kun himself mentioning, that he learned the Sith magic aspects of Sadow's knowledge, right before inflicting force ownage on Alema Keto via Sith magic.
is there any reason to think that boast was empty? He also said, and I quote, that Sadow's secrets would destroy him if he didn't maser them "so master them I shall!"
And we have the narrator proclaiming, that Kun has gathered more knowledge than he could ever use, which doesn't have to be a reference to the entirety of Sadow's knowledge.
Given it was from plundering Ossus it's no surprise why it wouldn't include Sadow's knowledge...
Which would be rather odd anyway, provided that - at least to my knowledge - Kun did never access the holocron, in which Sidious later found Sadow's knowledge. Or did he?
Are you referring to the Dark Holocron? There's no evidence that was Sadow's Holocron. They're two distinct things. However, the Dark Holocron was apparently not destroyed as LEgacy of the Jedi had it sotlen by Lorian Nod from the Jedi Archives, and it was later used by dooku and Sidious.
Kun had access to Sadow's knowledge from Nadd and Sadow's own scrolls. Palpatine had accessed Sadow's Holocron, as he placed the teachings in the Telos Holocron, with Sadow as the Gatekeeper, just like Bane placed Revan in his own Holocron
That aside: Unlike Sidious, most other Sith Lord, specifically Bane and Kun, didn't have anything else to do but increasing their knowledge in the ways of the Sith. Sidious orchestrated a galactic war, manipulated two governments and had to fool the Jedi regarding his true nature, while training several apprentices. I don't see him having as much time to focus on the acquisition and practice of new knowledge in that period of his life at least.
When the canon specifically states otherwise? Palpatine is described as devoting an enormous amount of time to sith studies. He treasured knowledge above all else. And his mastery of numerous other sects' abilities is also described.
Also, Kun wasn't preparing for a galactic conquest? Kun had months. Palpatine had decades.
Yes. Sidious says so. Which kind of contradicts the statement above, that all Sith should (and will) share their knowledge freely, correct? 😉
Not really. He says quite frankly he'll share it at the time they're ready. Given Palpatine created books in which he incorporated Sadow's knowledge as well...
This argument follows the assumption that all of the knowledge of the listed force users made it into their holocrons and was then later stored in the next holocron by people who discovered it. In fact, this is contradicted by the events in the source material. For all of those people, it is highly unlikely, that they would hand out the entirety off their knowledge and, even assuming they did, that all of that knowledge made it to the next generation of Dark Siders.
It's stated that all the Dark Lord's knowledge (at least at the time the Ritual of Commencement is performed) is stored within the Holocron.
For Bane, he intended, as he states, to leave his knowledge (all of it) for his successors with the precise goal of each Sith growing stronger as the line continues.
It's stated all of Revan's knowledge was in his Holocron. all of Nadd's (and all of Sadow's as well) was in his, all of Darzu's was in hers, all of Bane's was in his. I've cited these quotes in this thread, Nai. Andeddu's Holocron also obviously contains all his knowledge, but that's obvious as it's not a normal Holocron.
Not every Sith is like Andeddu. Plenty of them share knowledge pretty freely, as Sadow and Nadd did. If Set Harth can be judged worthy, they really have no reason to refuse the guy who's achieved the Siths' long held goals, especially when Palpatine is on good terms with the spirits of Korriban (and if he's not, he can just rip info out of them like Cronal and Ban did). We know he learned everything Plagueis knew save the one secret of eternal life, he had access to Bane's Holocron since his apprenticeship as well, which means a ton of knowledge as is.
It's unlikely that Nadd learned everything from Sadow or the holocron of Adas, making it impossible for him, to pass on the entirety of their knowledge to Kun / Alema / Satal / Ulic or Sidious. [/B]
Rule of Two explicitly states Nadd had all of Sadow's knowledge, and given he had Adas's Holocron for decades? These guys aren't idiots. It might take years to unlock a Holocron's secrets, but they're fully capable of it. Nadd is apparently a sight stronger than Sadow from what we know now