Kreia versus Shaak Ti

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I don't follow; by your reckoning, no student can ever surpass his teacher when we know that isn't the case. Indeed, it seems that this is exactly what happened:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Chris Avellone seems to think that "the Sith Lords of old" would have no problem using the technique if not for their reluctance to "sublimate their identities."

That quote doesn't show him being more skilled with the technique than her. Especially when she's the one enabling him to get there.

Sith 'Lords' being the key word.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That quote doesn't show him being more skilled with the technique than her. Especially when she's the one enabling him to get there.

Again, your logic is inherently flawed. So because a teacher "enables" a student "to get there," the teacher is always more skilled? That's a dangerously flawedwrong assumption.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sith 'Lords' being the key word.

We've seen some pretty substandard Sith Lords, though, littered throughout canon.

All of this is to say that it is clearly a product of technique and Sith education, not raw power.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Again, your logic is inherently flawed. So because a teacher "enables" a student "to get there," the teacher is always more skilled? That's a dangerously flawedwrong assumption.

We've seen some pretty substandard Sith Lords, though, littered throughout canon.

All of this is to say that it is clearly a product of technique and Sith education, not raw power.

If she could get him to that level then why could she herself not reach it? The only explanation I can see is that he's more powerful than her.

And I would still put them above a half-dead Kriea only barely starting to recover her force abilities.

Well clearly. 😐

So whats exactly is your point again? That she could have used the technique against Sion, only because, although it does clearly not require raw power to actually use, it clearly does in fact require raw power to have an affect on someone, so clearly she knew she wouldn't be able to effectively use it against him and so clearly chose not to?

Hmmmmm. 😐

Originally posted by Nephthys
If she could get him to that level then why could she herself not reach it? The only explanation I can see is that he's more powerful than her.

Do you believe Bastila to be more powerful than Revan simply because she was more advanced in a specific technique than he?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I would still put them above a half-dead Kriea only barely starting to recover her force abilities.

But it doesn't matter, does it? Kreia clearly had control over her mental faculties and Force powers, but didn't utilize the technique on Sion either on Peragus or earlier at the Trayus Academy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well [b]clearly. 😐

So whats exactly is your point again? That she could have used the technique against Sion, only because, although it does clearly not require raw power to actually use, it clearly does in fact require raw power to have an affect on someone, so clearly she knew she wouldn't be able to effectively use it against him and so clearly chose not to?

Hmmmmm. 😐 [/B]

My point is that clearly there are limitations to the technique, which is a product of education, not midichlorian count.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Do you believe Bastila to be more powerful than Revan simply because she was more advanced in a specific technique than he?

Revan wasn't the person who actually taught her that technique now was he?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
But it doesn't matter, does it? Kreia clearly had control over her mental faculties and Force powers, but didn't utilize the technique on Sion either on Peragus or earlier at the Trayus Academy.

Had control over her Force abilities? To what extent? I've already explained that she was not at her best at the time. If you want an explanation for why she didn't use the technique then thats the best you're getting.

At Trayus Academy? You mean when Lord 'Wound in the Force' Nihilus was standing right next to him?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
My point is that [b]clearly there are limitations to the technique, which is a product of education, not midichlorian count. [/B]

Theres no evidence that its one way of the other. Raw power enables a Sith to use techniques like Sith Lightning to greater and greater effect, as does knowledge. I've seen nothing from you that idicates that its exclusive in this case.

facepalm

We'll just agree to disagree, then.

Fine by me Alexian. 👆

So, you're saying that because she's weaker on Korriban and Paragus that she couldn't use the Force Drain, while on Dantooine she was finally powerful enough to use it.

How does it not rely on how much Power the Force user has then?

Because it is clearly an advanced Sith technique that is difficult to do.

I'm sure it is difficult. In what way is it difficult to do, oh yes, you need to have a certain amount of Power to perform it.

Soooo, it DOES rely on how much Power the Force user has.

To a point. Obviously it scales with regards to overall power and technique. From the fodder Sith to Kreia to Nihilus' planet-wide destruction.

Hell, I'd even say it has less to do with power than it does about skill, seeing as the Exile does it completely instinctively without meaning to.

Its faulty to assume that therefore one stronger than the wielder can resist it though. The problem is that there is apparantly no defense against it. How do you defend against someone forcing a force bond on you and then using it to suck you dry?

Shaak Ti should take this. Jedi of the PT are generally stronger than Jedi of the Old Republic. Since Kreia was a Jedi master when she left the order, she has status comparable to Shaak. Therefore, Shaak Ti wins because of her time period advantage.

I don't think you're Nebaris.

Revan gets stomped.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To a point. Obviously it scales with regards to overall power and technique. From the fodder Sith to Kreia to Nihilus' planet-wide destruction.

Hell, I'd even say it has less to do with power than it does about skill, seeing as the Exile does it [b]completely instinctively without meaning to.[/B]

The Exile uses the exact same technique as Kreia and Nihilus now?

Its faulty to assume that therefore one stronger than the wielder can resist it though. The problem is that there is apparantly no defense against it.

You keep saying there is no defense against it, while we've only seen her use it on three Jedi Masters of who we have no idea off how powerful they really are. It's like saying that if we had never seen Yoda or Starkiller block Force Lightning with their hands we'd say there is (without counting the outside utility Lightsaber) NO DEFENSE against it.

We haven't seen her use that technique on anyone noteworthy in terms of power, so how do we know that an actual powerful character wouldn't be able to stop it? And don't even dare to bring Nihilus in this again, because that's like saying "Oh well because Sidious can practically bend Mace his lightsaber back with FL, everyone could do that because it's the same technique.

How do you defend against someone forcing a force bond on you and then using it to suck you dry?

That's what Kreia does? Force a Force bond on those Jedi Masters? Can you give me the quote of this?

Originally posted by NTJack0
Revan gets stomped.

NEVER. BLASPHEMY. LIES!!!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The Exile uses the exact same technique as Kreia and Nihilus now?

Erm, yes?

“It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.”

It is constantly amazing to me that people who say they've played the game multiple times don't seem to remember a fvcking thing about it. No offense of course, its just that I've explained this to you guys like 3 times already.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You keep saying there is no defense against it, while we've only seen her use it on three Jedi Masters of who we have no idea off how powerful they really are. It's like saying that if we had never seen Yoda or Starkiller block Force Lightning with their hands we'd say there is (without counting the outside utility Lightsaber) NO DEFENSE against it.

I don't see how thats illogical. Before he did that I'm pretty sure we didn't know that it could be blocked with the Force. I mean, do you actually know of a way to block Nihilus' technique? Or are you just going to speculate that there might be a way to block it? Despite the fact that we've seen an entire planet fail to do so?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We haven't seen her use that technique on anyone noteworthy in terms of power, so how do we know that an actual powerful character wouldn't be able to stop it? And don't even dare to bring Nihilus in this again, because that's like saying "Oh well because Sidious can practically bend Mace his lightsaber back with FL, everyone could do that because it's the same technique.

Not really. We know that there are ways to block Force Lightning. And that there was an actual struggle involved proves that it can be blocked. TEH GIGA-DRAIN! on the other hand has never even allowed for a struggle. Kreia does it on 3 Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand and isn't even out of breath. Nihilus does it to an entire planet and then just casually goes down to pick up Visas. Kreia has even said that its impossible to block. Theres nothing suggested that it can be resisted, unless one is a Wound in the Force that is.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
That's what Kreia does? Force a Force bond on those Jedi Masters? Can you give me the quote of this?

The quote is above.

Heres the page where the Jedi explain everything if you want it.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
NEVER. BLASPHEMY. LIES!!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Erm, yes?

“It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.”

It is constantly amazing to me that people who say they've played the game multiple times don't seem to remember a fvcking thing about it. No offense of course, its just that I've explained this to you guys like 3 times already.

She doesn't use the exact same Force Drain the way Nihilus and Kreia use it, like the quote says by making the Force Bond the Exile leeches the LIFE from others and their WILL.

That's not what Nihilus and Kreia do, they do not make Force Bonds.

I don't see how thats illogical. Before he did that I'm pretty sure we didn't know that it could be blocked with the Force. I mean, do you actually know of a way to block Nihilus' technique? Or are you just going to speculate that there [b]might be a way to block it? Despite the fact that we've seen an entire planet fail to do so?[/B]

An entire planet of unknowns, Sidious did that as well. We've not seen Kreia use the attack on more than 3 people who haven't proven much in terms of Force ability. Therefore the connection between "those three can't block it" and "so no one can" is illogical. I'm not saying it can 100% definitely be blocked, but neither should you say that it can be 100% definitely not be blocked.

Not really. We know that there are ways to block Force Lightning. And that there was an actual [b]struggle involved proves that it can be blocked. TEH GIGA-DRAIN! on the other hand has never even allowed for a struggle. Kreia does it on 3 Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand and isn't even out of breath.[/B]

Sidious hit Yoda with Force Lightning, he wasn't out of breath, yet we've seen Yoda block it afterwards. Mhm?

Kreia has even said that its [b]impossible to block. Theres nothing suggested that it can be resisted, unless one is a Wound in the Force that is.[/B]

Where did she say that her Force Drain is impossible to block? If you're talking about the Kreia's Fall cutscene, she is talking about being cut off the Force and it didn't feature the Pinkish lightning at all. I'm afraid you may have things confused.

The quote is above.

Heres the page where the Jedi explain everything if you want it.

After reading through that I'm actually starting to wonder if Kreia actually uses the same Force Drain Nihilus uses... She apparently cut them off the Force, a technique that they could also use and many others as well.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
She doesn't use the exact same Force Drain the way Nihilus and Kreia use it, like the quote says by making the Force Bond the Exile leeches the LIFE from others and their WILL.

That's not what Nihilus and Kreia do, they do not make Force Bonds.

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2.30 onwards.

'It is a way that they fill the hollow places where the Force used to be.' As the Jedi Masters reveal to you, this is something that the Exile does constantly. Every Single Time she kills someone.

It is simply that she does not have conscious control over it teh way Kreia or Nihilus do. It is the same technique, but just as there are advanced versions of the same basic technique in other cases (Shock, Lightning, Storm) so too are there of this one. The basic use the Sith assassins are capable of allows them to force bonds on others and leech power from them. The advanced version of this is the Exile, who can leech even more, draining them dry upon death and unconsciously dominate others. The most advanced form is Nihilus', wherein he can leech power from entire planets (which is what the Sith were doing in Dxun fyi), use the link to force death and utterly drain them of the Force and consciously dominate all those around him. Remember the slaves upon his ship? Tobin? Dark reflections of the Exiles own companions.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
An entire planet of unknowns, Sidious did that as well.

No, he didn't. 😐

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We've not seen Kreia use the attack on more than 3 people who haven't proven much in terms of Force ability. Therefore the connection between "those three can't block it" and "so no one can" is illogical. I'm not saying it can 100% definitely be blocked, but neither should you say that it can be 100% definitely not be blocked.

Tell me how it can be blocked and I will conceed that point. There is ample evidence that it cannot.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Sidious hit Yoda with Force Lightning, he wasn't out of breath, yet we've seen Yoda block it afterwards. Mhm?

Yoda was surprised. The trio were not. She'd already attacked them once with the Force and they were on guard and ready for battle. Plus, you know, they have precognition. For her to have surprised them she'd need to have blocked or overwhelmed all of their senses. Either way she's overpowering them.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Where did she say that her Force Drain is impossible to block? If you're talking about the Kreia's Fall cutscene, she is talking about being cut off the Force and it didn't feature the Pinkish lightning at all. I'm afraid you may have things confused.

😐

The drain.......... does cut people off from the Force.

😐

Plus:

"Darth Traya teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross." -- KotOR Campaign Guide, page 160.

Thank you Gideon. 🙂

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
After reading through that I'm actually starting to wonder if Kreia actually uses the same Force Drain Nihilus uses... She apparently cut them off the Force, a technique that they could also use and many others as well.

Again, that is what the drain does.