Abortion dystopia #5823: Women deliberately conceiving and then aborting.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That may be true, but if you ask anyone what they would rather have happen to them, they have the possibility of a harder life, or they get killed, which option do you think most people are going to choose? And even if some might want to die, that is a choice we have no right to force on them.

That's why the question of the fetuses "personhood" is what's important in a debate on abortion. Should the fetus be treated as a child or not? If so, then we cannot justify killing it at all. If not, then we can do just about anything we want to it. Everything else is completely irrelevant.

Just saying... 😛

More crime, worse healthcare, worse education, more likely to be jailed, shot, killed, become a teenage parent or drug addict, etc. It's a big cycle. Not to mention higher rates of depression and suicide. Not to mention the burden on society.

Obviously this is a split issue, but women who have a "moral issue" with aborting shouldn't be fornicating anyways, if they are that moral they should wait until they're married and stop having sex with deadbeats or losers. Then they won't have to make this hard decision. Not to mention many women do this to trap men and keep them around.

If men could opt out of parenthood like women, and they didn't give out welfare, alimony, etc. to women who do this, it would be a lot less of this going on. Women have an amazing ability to put a cork in it if they are going to be the ones left paying for it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I disagree, I find beyond the personhood thing, which I obviously don't think a fetus is either, is also the issue of the mother's rights to her own body, which, in my view, even a full person has no right to.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

If men could opt out of parenthood like women, and they didn't give out welfare, alimony, etc. to women who do this, it would be a lot less of this going on. Women have an amazing ability to put a cork in it if they are going to be the ones left paying for it. Well my problem is them getting the benefit of opting out of parenthood that men don't. Equal rights right?

Well, that's a completely different issue, but, yeah, I, too, have a problem with that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I disagree, I find beyond the personhood thing, which I obviously don't think a fetus is either, is also the issue of the mother's rights to her own body, which, in my view, even a full person has no right to.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
But a fetus can't "choose" not only that, it isn't a possibility of a harder life, it *is* a harder life.

More crime, worse healthcare, worse education, more likely to be jailed, shot, killed, become a teenage parent or drug addict, etc. It's a big cycle. Not to mention higher rates of depression and suicide. Not to mention the burden on society.

I do agree with you about not getting pregnant if you don't want a baby, but not ONLY if they have a problem with abortion, just in general.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, that's a completely different issue, but, yeah, I, too, have a problem with that.

You have an issue with . . . biology?

Originally posted by menokokoro
So, you don't think that a woman who has sex willingly, and conceives (assuming the fetus IS "full person"😉, we don't have the right to tell her not to kill the little person in her because it is "her body" even though she made the mistake of getting pregnant? That sounds extremely selfish to me.

So, no one that had a hard life was happy? All those things you pointed out don't matter, by this logic, we should kill every child who might get shot in his future, because that would suck! The point is, people deserve a choice, they have a God given right to that choice. They don't have to be gang members, they don't have to be a drain on society, they don't have to do any of those things you pointed out, and if they do, that sux, but who are we to say they should die because they have a chance of, one day, becoming a gang member, or cost the rest of the country/state a little more money? (btw, the answer to that is to STOP GIVING THEM MONEY! but that is a different issue).

I do agree with you about not getting pregnant if you don't want a baby, but not ONLY if they have a problem with abortion, just in general.

It's ignorant and selfish to bring someone into this world you can't take care of. It's abusive. A fetus can't choose anything, we're talking about fetuses not children.

They don't have to be a drain or be worse off, but they generally are. Kids in backgrounds like this are more prone to repeat it because they lived it, trust me I know.

Poverty and a lack of a father is dysfunctional and damaging to a child. It's just a lifetime of abuse vs ending something you aren't ready for. Why would you have a kid you aren't ready to take care of in the best of ways?

I'm not saying go around killing people left and right btw, I'm just saying we should keep it in a minimum in the first place.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I grew up in a rougher background and turned out extremely well, doesn't mean I'd recommend it to anybody.

It's ignorant and selfish to bring someone into this world you can't take care of. It's abusive. A fetus can't choose anything, we're talking about fetuses not children.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
They don't have to be a drain or be worse off, but they generally are. Kids in backgrounds like this are more prone to repeat it because they lived it, trust me I know.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Poverty and a lack of a father is dysfunctional and damaging to a child. It's just a lifetime of abuse vs ending something you aren't ready for. Why would you have a kid you aren't ready to take care of in the best of ways?

I'm not saying go around killing people left and right btw, I'm just saying we should keep it in a minimum in the first place.

As for the argument that "they aren't living" that is complete and utter BS! Who are we to decide if they are living or not? the FACT is that they will be born as a "living" thing, what difference does it make that they might not be alive, in the traditional sense, as a fetus?

Originally posted by menokokoro
Your missing the point, you aren't giving them a choice as a fetus, you are giving them an opportunity to live, so they can make those choices later.

Again...How does this mean they should die? Even if they were certain to be a drain, that isn't cause to be killed, otherwise we wouldn't have welfare, we would just have a firing squad.

yeah, I agree completely that if someone isn't ready to have a child they shouldn't, they shouldn't even have sex imo. But I don't think abortion is the answer because the child will have a hard time, or will have a higher chance of being a criminal. And I'm not even talking about the "chance" of it, I'm talking about the fact that even those things, if they were to happen to every child who was born into a dysfunctional home, are not good enough reason to stop something from living.

As for the argument that "they aren't living" that is complete and utter BS! Who are we to decide if they are living or not? the FACT is that they will be born as a "living" thing, what difference does it make that they might not be alive, in the traditional sense, as a fetus?

Not only that, but even if the kid turns out good, raising them in an environment like that isn't good. I know because I turned out good and I was from there, so what.

I didn't say they "should" die or whatnot. My point was that bringing them up in a life of abuse or lack isn't better than the other option. One is a lot quicker than the other. The point is they can't decide. They don't have the mental development of kids or adults, that isn't the point. We wouldn't need a firing squad as we'd have less idiots out there selfishly having kids they can't afford. Is there an opportunity where the parent should ever abort? Being harmful to the parent, the child itself, *and* society isn't enough of a reason.

I feel it is developing. Just not able to make the same cognitive thoughts that children and adults will. People make their code based on what's convenient to them anyways.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I didn't say they "should" die or whatnot. My point was that bringing them up in a life of abuse or lack isn't better than the other option. One is a lot quicker than the other. The point is they can't decide. They don't have the mental development of kids or adults, that isn't the point. We wouldn't need a firing squad as we'd have less idiots out there selfishly having kids they can't afford. Is there an opportunity where the parent should ever abort? Being harmful to the parent, the child itself, *and* society isn't enough of a reason.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Now we are arguing opinions. You think that being aborted is better than living in that environment (correct me if I'm reading it wrong), while I believe that life, even a horrible one, is better than nothing.

It isn't. Why bring a person into the troubles life has to offer that didn't ask to be there, it's selfish. Why not have kids and raise them in the best environment possible with both parents and money for things like health insurance and heat for the winter?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You have an issue with . . . biology?

Yeah, like many Germans, I thrive to become the master of biology.

No, I have an issue with the fact that men do not have a say in whether they want to have to contribute to a child's life as a father. I think it's an unrelated issue, but potentially I don't see why a man has to financially support a child he did not want, because the woman wanted to have it. Of course he shouldn't have the right to make her abort it, but I could imagine it to be okay for him to opt out of parenthood.

Originally posted by menokokoro
So, you don't think that a woman who has sex willingly, and conceives (assuming the fetus IS "full person"😉, we don't have the right to tell her not to kill the little person in her because it is "her body" even though she made the mistake of getting pregnant? That sounds extremely selfish to me.

I think she should have the right to separate that person from her body, if that leads to that person's death that is unfortunate, but not her problem.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think she should have the right to separate that person from her body, if that leads to that person's death that is unfortunate, but not her problem.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, like many Germans, I thrive to become the master of biology.

No, I have an issue with the fact that men do not have a say in whether they want to have to contribute to a child's life as a father. I think it's an unrelated issue, but potentially I don't see why a man has to financially support a child he did not want, because the woman wanted to have it. Of course he shouldn't have the right to make her abort it, but I could imagine it to be okay for him to opt out of parenthood.

So a man must pay child support for a child the woman decides to keep... but if she decides to abort and he doesn't want to she can tell him to suck a dick (which is what he should have done to avoid this mess in the first place 😄 )

It ain't easy being male schmoll

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You're not understanding my point, some other member made the case that it's such a horrible thing to abort. But having kids irresponsibly is horrible. To the person, to the kid, and to society.

It isn't. Why bring a person into the troubles life has to offer that didn't ask to be there, it's selfish. Why not have kids and raise them in the best environment possible with both parents and money for things like health insurance and heat for the winter?

Originally posted by menokokoro
And that doesn't seem hypocritical to you?

No. Cause it isn't.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, I have an issue with the fact that men do not have a say in whether they want to have to contribute to a child's life as a father. I think it's an unrelated issue, but potentially I don't see why a man has to financially support a child he did not want, because the woman wanted to have it. Of course he shouldn't have the right to make her abort it, but I could imagine it to be okay for him to opt out of parenthood.

According to my father, who works with a lot of cases like this, in a lot of instances men pretty much can opt out of parenthood. If a guy walks off there's not much chance of finding him or even being sure that he's the father. Teenagers, who are also a large segment of the issue, have no legal obligations in this matter where I live, the boy can leave without any consequences.

That's really my problem with letting men opt out. If the woman gets pregnant she had no choice but to deal with it (either the painful decision to have an abortion or the difficulties of raising a child). In the case where the man can opt out he ends up being much freer (his choices aren't remotely as difficult) despite holding just as much responsibility.

Originally posted by menokokoro
And that doesn't seem hypocritical to you?

Are you sure you know what hypocritical means?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
According to my father, who works with a lot of cases like this, in a lot of instances men pretty much can opt out of parenthood. If a guy walks off there's not much chance of finding him or even being sure that he's the father. Teenagers, who are also a large segment of the issue, have no legal obligations in this matter where I live, the boy can leave without any consequences.

That's really my problem with letting men opt out. If the woman gets pregnant she had no choice but to deal with it (either the painful decision to have an abortion or the difficulties of raising a child). In the case where the man can opt out he ends up being much freer (his choices aren't remotely as difficult) despite holding just as much responsibility.

Are you sure you know what hypocritical means?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Are you sure you know what hypocritical means?

Originally posted by menokokoro
I agree, I have said this, don't have kids until you are ready/have a way to take care of them. But...like I have also said, that doesn't mean that they should die because they are in that situation. You might think it would have been better for you (not an assumption, just needed the converse to my point) but that doesn't mean they would, and we should let them have an opportunity to live, rather than....well, not...live.

But it doesn't mean they should live either. Having kids is something biological and not some magic trick, any person and any animal (for the most part) can crank out kids. Doesn't mean all should at any time.

Well, it isn't hypocritical, it's not like you were debating the issue. You just attacked either my opinion or the opinion of a woman that shares mine as hypocritical, which seems more ad-hominem, than fair debating.