I think its obvious right now that the first fight against Oppress isn't sufficient to declare a superiority of either side. Niether side was actually seriously fighting the other and there were other variables in there. Nor is the other fight imo.
Though I would say that the absurd ease with which Dooku was dodging his blows says something of his lightsaber prowess.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
At the 2:35 mark, Katuunko regains consciousness and begins to attack Opress; at the 2:37 mark, he manages to slip out of Opress's grasp, and it as it this point that the Jedi attempt their dogpile.The only single instance in which Kenobi and Anakin had the upper hand was the direct result of a distraction generated by a third party, which, unlike Opress's telekinetic powers, will not occur in the duel proposed by this thread.Furthermore, I accept that the Jedi weren't seeking to kill Opress, but I will reiterate that Opress wasn't exactly seeking to kill them as well in as much as he only applied as much force as was necessary to get them out of his way. When Katuunko was killed and he brought his full focus to bear, Obi-Wan and Anakin were summarily and casually tossed aside and overpowered via Opress's own powers and ingenuity, something that the two Jedi cannot claim for themselves.
So the point I made remains:
How is this small excerpt where neither party appears to want to kill the other on hazardous ground with the distraction of the hostage relevant to a neutral setting death match?
Answer: it isn't.
Oppress' momentary TK over Obi-Wan and Anakin who were not trying to actively resist his Force powers is not conclusive enough to put him above them in general martial prowess. To further elaborate on that, Oppress rawr!Force choked both Ventress and Dooku later on who were distracted with fighting each other, yet we can all agree Dooku and perhaps Ventress are wella head of him in mastery of the Force. In a setting without plot-induced distractions, Dooku or Ventress could likely block TK, and Dooku could probably outright dodge Oppress' blows and shock him to death.
While that may be, Opress demonstrates impressive telekinetic powers during his training with Count Dooku and his escape from Toydaria after besting Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even on level ground, telekinesis can be devastating and under certain circumstances decisive, unless there is no object with which to bludgeon the Jedi (including walls).
And yet his TK push of Obi-Wan and Anakin had the effect of putting distance between them and momentarily inconveniencing them, but they got right up. Let's compare this act of TK versus say, Dooku's in RotS. When Dooku chokes/TKs Obi-Wan, he slings him against a bulkhead/rail with enough Force to knock him out, and then drops that walkway on his legs (Which Obi somehow suffered with no ill effect, go figure). Oppress does a rawr!Force push that makes Obi and anakin both hit a wall and get right back up again.
Yeah, it looked impressive. But the point remains that it was not a game-breaker on flat ground. Neither Jedi was totally incapacitated by it. The way it separates fighters nullifies any combat advantages for Oppress, because his modus operandi is in-close saber combat utilizing his strength which is no doubt measured in gorillas. Dooku meanwhile regularly disarms, chokes and chucks people around like ragdolls.
The reason I bring up Dooku's use of the Force is because it's instrumental to the huge advantage he has over all his opponents. In sheer mastery, he's above Ventress, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Oppress. For him, TK is a game-breaker. He does not need to close the distance to defeat his foes. We can't say Oppress has the same advantages.
- TK two Jedi away from you when they were not actively blocking TK, and the fact that you're on a hovering platform means they cannot recover easily and you have the advantage. Situational.
- TK push two Jedi away from you when they engage in combat in a small ship's corridor and adjacent hallway. Neither is immediately incapped and they recover with relative ease. You then subsequently engage in close combat without using TK and they give ground, presumably to run your rage out and defeat you when you're tired or wait for open ground and flank you. Straight-forward use, ineffectual.
- You choked two powerful dark siders who were intent on killing each other and not you in a moment of considerable rage and pain. Situational.
I don't see the valid reasoning behind discrediting Opress's manipulation of the environment. Anakin attempted to use the Force to hurl a platform at Opress with the intent to subdue him, which failed. Many duels in the films and EU depict combatants make use of the environment and if Opress's clever use of the hover platform somehow doesn't indicate superiority despite the odds and disadvantages he endured, then that requires a reexamination of many duels and fights throughout canon.
I'm not saying Oppress wasn't clever or tactical in his fight; my point remains that it wasn't a conclusive neutral fight for valid comparison. The nature of the fight (they're all distracted and no one is really committed to a real duel) only adds to that.
Without apparent danger or serious effort? By what standard? They're wielding weapons that casually removes limbs, what isn't dangerous about that?
Is this a serious rebutall?
In a lightsaber fight, they seemed to not be in any apparent danger from Oppress' onslaught and gave ground easily. Compare this to say, Obi-Wan barely able to give ground before Anakin on Mustafar. It's obvious to anyone with two open eyes that Oppress isn't challenging them in this melee.
And yet again I must reiterate that Opress managed to overwhelm the Jedi and the droids via the Force on a level playing field.
Level ground is not the same as level playing field. When the droids began firing, the 2 vs 1 melee broke up entirely, and all parties focused on not being shot to pieces. Oppress puts up an impressive defense for a few seconds before being shot up and then rawr!TK waving droids only to bound away and escape. This isn't overwhelming so much as barely surviving.
I think you're confusing indirect feats of impressiveness with combat experience and feats that would relate to the fight I presented in the original post.
Are you arguing that Opress was still operating under the effects of battle rage during the second duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin? Regardless, a 'normal' Opress was able to dominate both opponents despite enormous disadvantages on Toydaria.
Oppress continually invokes rage to keep himself strong, which makes sense because it is a Sith doctrine invoked by beserker types such as Oppress and others. Considering he goes all Hulk-smash every time he does something particularly profound with the Force indicates that he needs to fuel his rage to get those above-average results. Dooku's vicious shocks brought him to his knees, but eventually pissed him off so much he Force choked both Ventress and Dooku, but I wouldn't put him over either one of them in combat.
Do we have any other videos of Oppress fighting?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To further elaborate on that, Oppress rawr!Force choked both Ventress and Dooku later on who were distracted with fighting each other, yet we can all agree Dooku and perhaps Ventress are wella head of him in mastery of the Force. In a setting without plot-induced distractions, Dooku or Ventress could likely block TK, and Dooku could probably outright dodge Oppress' blows and shock him to death.
Agreed. They did bitchslap him across a room 2 seconds later with Tk and lightning after all.
Neph
Agreed. They did bitchslap him across a room 2 seconds later with Tk and lightning after all.
Explain to me how their effective but combined use of power conclusively demonstrates superiority over Opress for both of them. Dooku is clearly Savage's superior in both swordsmanship and Force mastery, but no case has been made yet for Ventress.
SM
So the point I made remains:How is this small excerpt where neither party appears to want to kill the other on hazardous ground with the distraction of the hostage relevant to a neutral setting death match?
Answer: it isn't.
This discussion is ultimately about which party (Opress or Kenobi & Skywalker) dominated the other. Your attempt to argue that Opress didn't dominate is underminedcompromised entirely by the fact that in both of their confrontations, Opress dominated them, whether it was through sheer physical strength or raw Force energy. I have successfully proven that Opress was similarly disinterested in killing the Jedi during their confrontation on Toydaria, but that didn't stop him from disabling them casually and escaping. Both parties suffered from the same handicap, one party had the advantage of numbers and combat experience and the added benefit of an uncooperative captive with which Opress had to deal, and it was still the other party who cleaned house.
You, Korto, and Neph can argue otherwise as long as you like: the uncomfortable fact of the situation is that Anakin and Kenobi are never in a position of advantage over Opress that was by their own doing. Not once. Meanwhile, I can argue otherwise for Opress.
SM
Oppress' momentary TK over Obi-Wan and Anakin who were not trying to actively resist his Force powers is not conclusive enough to put him above them in general martial prowess.
Why not? Because he didn't cause them long-term damage?
SM
To further elaborate on that, Oppress rawr!Force choked both Ventress and Dooku later on who were distracted with fighting each other, yet we can all agree Dooku and perhaps Ventress are wella head of him in mastery of the Force.
Dooku is clearly superior in terms of both Force strength and mastery. Ventress might very well be ahead in terms of mastery (knowledge and technique) but there is absolutely no indication that she's even close in terms of raw strength.
SM
In a setting without plot-induced distractions, Dooku or Ventress could likely block TK, and Dooku could probably outright dodge Oppress' blows and shock him to death.
Speculation and weak speculation with regards to Ventress, but with Dooku, I agree.
SM
And yet his TK push of Obi-Wan and Anakin had the effect of putting distance between them and momentarily inconveniencing them, but they got right up. Let's compare this act of TK versus say, Dooku's in RotS. When Dooku chokes/TKs Obi-Wan, he slings him against a bulkhead/rail with enough Force to knock him out, and then drops that walkway on his legs (Which Obi somehow suffered with no ill effect, go figure). Oppress does a rawr!Force push that makes Obi and anakin both hit a wall and get right back up again.Yeah, it looked impressive. But the point remains that it was not a game-breaker on flat ground. Neither Jedi was totally incapacitated by it. The way it separates fighters nullifies any combat advantages for Oppress, because his modus operandi is in-close saber combat utilizing his strength which is no doubt measured in gorillas. Dooku meanwhile regularly disarms, chokes and chucks people around like ragdolls.
The reason I bring up Dooku's use of the Force is because it's instrumental to the huge advantage he has over all his opponents. In sheer mastery, he's above Ventress, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Oppress. For him, TK is a game-breaker. He does not need to close the distance to defeat his foes. We can't say Oppress has the same advantages.
Comparing Opress to Dooku is irrelevant; I'm not arguing that he's on par with the Count. Still, Opress's telekinetic powers are formidable and simply because he doesn't apply them in the way that Dooku does (i.e. collapsing bulkheads on prone Jedi, etc.) doesn't mean he can't, unless it takes a special technique of telekinesis to the things that Dooku does.
SM
- TK two Jedi away from you when they were not actively blocking TK, and the fact that you're on a hovering platform means they cannot recover easily and you have the advantage. Situational.
He doesn't have the advantage because they were on hover platforms, Janus. If anything, they did, because it afforded them maneuverability enough to avoid engaging him on his terms: namely close enough for him to apply his superior size and strength against them. That he had the advantage was because he seized it, not because it was given to him by fate.
SM
- TK push two Jedi away from you when they engage in combat in a small ship's corridor and adjacent hallway. Neither is immediately incapped and they recover with relative ease. You then subsequently engage in close combat without using TK and they give ground, presumably to run your rage out and defeat you when you're tired or wait for open ground and flank you. Straight-forward use, ineffectual.
And despite their vastly greater combat experience, greater numbers, and Skywalker's superior raw strength in the Force, they were unable to stop him in any scenario.
SM
- You choked two powerful dark siders who were intent on killing each other and not you in a moment of considerable rage and pain. Situational.
I'm not attempting to use Opress's throttling of Dooku and Ventress, because it was clearly the result of battle rage.
SM
I'm not saying Oppress wasn't clever or tactical in his fight; my point remains that it wasn't a conclusive neutral fight for valid comparison. The nature of the fight (they're all distracted and no one is really committed to a real duel) only adds to that.
The fact remains that Opress endured disadvantages the Jedi did not during their first duel and still emerged in a position of dominance. I'm not sure why you're trying to handwave that.
SM
Is this a serious rebutall?In a lightsaber fight, they seemed to not be in any apparent danger from Oppress' onslaught and gave ground easily. Compare this to say, Obi-Wan barely able to give ground before Anakin on Mustafar. It's obvious to anyone with two open eyes that Oppress isn't challenging them in this melee.
That's a bold claim. One wonders why, if he wasn't a challenge, that they didn't immediately gain the upper hand and subdue him.
SM
Level ground is not the same as level playing field. When the droids began firing, the 2 vs 1 melee broke up entirely, and all parties focused on not being shot to pieces. Oppress puts up an impressive defense for a few seconds before being shot up and then rawr!TK waving droids only to bound away and escape. This isn't overwhelming so much as barely surviving.
The fact that all the droids and the Jedi were on their asses and/or faces indicates that it was overwhelming. It's absolutely silly to think that the two are mutually exclusive; Opress was repeatedly injured first by Dooku and then by the droids throughout his final stay on the dreadnought. He put two of the Jedi's most seasoned warriors on the defensive and floored a contingent of Separatist droids. That he chose to flee because of the superior odds and injuries doesn't diminish the fact that he flattened them all with telekinesis. Would you describe Dooku's performance on Geonosis as "barely surviving"? Because, boy did he sure leave in a hurry.
SM
Do we have any other videos of Oppress fighting?
A couple of times throughout the other episodes of the Opress arc, but I'm not sure if it was with a lightsaber. I'll check.
Neph
All Dooku did was lightning him again.
facepalm
At the 5:53 mark, Dooku's Force lightning hurls Opress across the room. If you're thinking WTF, I mean to suggest that you have no way of determining whether that was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis. Now with that in mind,
Me
Explain to me how their effective but combined use of power conclusively demonstrates superiority over Opress for both of them. And while you're at it, explain to me why Opress's telekinetic feats are insufficient for him to be placed above Anakin and Obi-Wan. And, furthermore, if your reason for that is "they weren't actively blocking TK", please prove to me that Opress was attempting to block Ventress's.
SM
I sense a budding fanboyism for Oppress! Who knew?
Yup, because if anyone argues for anyone other than Dooku and Ragnos, it's fanboyism. Good to know.
👆
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
[cut to make char limit]You, Korto, and Neph can argue otherwise as long as you like: the uncomfortable fact of the situation is that Anakin and Kenobi are never in a position of advantage over Opress that was by their own doing. Not once. Meanwhile, I can argue otherwise for Opress.
1. The advantage in the non-fight first part was situational - the Jedi weren't trying to kill him (which they would in this hypothetical versus match), and the hovering platforms provided an uneven and dangerous arena for any fight, to the death or not.
2. In the second fight, Oppress' Force mastery over Obi-Skywalker duo is a Force push which they immediately recover from. Aside from TKing them away while they were trying to wrestle him (When they were distracted) and TKing Ventress-Dooku while they were distracted, we have no evidence of straightforward Force use which is effective in a neutral dueling setting.
That might be uncomfortable for you, but it is the truth.
Why not? Because he didn't cause them long-term damage?
1. No long term damage/incapacitation.
2. He wasn't able to use it to conclusively bring down two fighters. I mean, if use of TK to cover your escape is evidence of martial prowess, Dooku effectively "overwhelmed" Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time.
Dooku is clearly superior in terms of both Force strength and mastery. Ventress might very well be ahead in terms of mastery (knowledge and technique) but there is absolutely no indication that she's even close in terms of raw strength.Speculation and weak speculation with regards to Ventress, but with Dooku, I agree.
Ventress' relative strength is debatable. Both Dooku and Sidious thought her Force powers were a threat though, and her knowledge was considerable compared to Oppress at this point. But any Force user worth their salt can block TK if they're not engaged.
Comparing Opress to Dooku is irrelevant; I'm not arguing that he's on par with the Count. Still, Opress's telekinetic powers are formidable and simply because he doesn't apply them in the way that Dooku does (i.e. collapsing bulkheads on prone Jedi, etc.) doesn't mean he can't, unless it takes a special technique of telekinesis to the things that Dooku does.
Dooku's known throughout the Order before he left for being a master of TK and a master of mixing the Force with his archaic dueling style. But my point is that Dooku's mastery of both of the above make it so that he can outfight multiple opponents without the need for in-close action. Dooku regularly TKs/shocks opponents even unarmed. Consider Ventress and the Nightsisters' attack; drugged and unarmed for the most part, he defeats all three using Force powers. In SW, it's extremely rare to see those who can win fights based on Force use alone. Sidious and Yoda come to mind, perhaps Mace Windu.
But to get to the bottom of it - Do you really believe that Oppress will win a fight against Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto on the merit of him having TK'd Jedi before without taking them out of the fight for more than a few seconds?
He doesn't have the advantage because they were on hover platforms, Janus. If anything, they did, because it afforded them maneuverability enough to avoid engaging him on his terms: namely close enough for him to apply his superior size and strength against them. That he had the advantage was because he seized it, not because it was given to him by fate.
You're missing the point.
His use of TK (read: his only real Force showing against Obi-Wan and Anakin in this scrap fight) was aided by the fact that they were trying to pin him for the titleship belt and the fact that when he shoved them back, they had nothing to land on.
I can't make that any more obvious. Again, this isn't about how clever or opportunistic Oppress is or isn't; it's about the fact that his TK's advantage was entirely tied to the situation involving hovering platforms. In the Jedi Temple library, he's not going to be fighting Kit and Obi-Wan on Mega Man-esque platforms either.
And despite their vastly greater combat experience, greater numbers, and Skywalker's superior raw strength in the Force, they were unable to stop him in any scenario.
Every major Force user gets Force pushed and caught off guard in the series. Damn near every one. Yoda, Sidious, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, etc.
This isn't a showing above anything we've seen before. And furthermore, it did not decisively win the battle for Oppress. He was unable to take advantage of it, period.
I'm not attempting to use Opress's throttling of Dooku and Ventress, because it was clearly the result of battle rage.
Fair enough.
The fact remains that Opress endured disadvantages the Jedi did not during their first duel and still emerged in a position of dominance. I'm not sure why you're trying to handwave that.
Because it's not relevant to the fight. He did not "win" the first scrap through superior saber use. If anything, Obi-Wan deflected his one-handed swipes with contemptuous ease on that narrow platform, and later on in the corridor he is casually held off. In terms of Force use (which is never a decisive factor for victory in the movie-era unless your name ends with 'ku, 'atine, or 'oda) his first wave was successful because the Jedi had nothing to really land on and recover, while his second was only successful in distancing himself from the Jedi who immediately recovered.
None of this makes him "win" a fight against two Jedi, or "overwhelm" them.
Second, to further analyze his uber hostage taking skills, when confronted with the Jedi on either side, he opts instead of say TKing them as they jump or leaping himself to another adjacent pod to throw the hostage in the air and leave himself open. Had it been Sith against him instead of Jedi, GG right there. Saber to ribs, he's dead. His first tactical decision was a poor one because it could have been his end right there. Then he botched the hostage situation by killing his hostage, and was fortunate enough to be able to push the Jedi back and then capitalize on their unfortunate situation.
This doesn't translate into overwhelming martial victory.
That's a bold claim. One wonders why, if he wasn't a challenge, that they didn't immediately gain the upper hand and subdue him.
No, it's a rational claim. We've seen struggling. AotC, Obi and Anakin struggled with Dooku, who rocked their worlds. In RotS, Obi-Wan struggles with Anakin, who is battering him and the former is giving ground in a hectic, sloppy manner. Oppress is simply attacking in a straight-forward way, no doubt limited by the hallway, but the Jedi maintain their waving blades of defense easily. He does not stomp them, nor does he seem to overcome their defenses.
The fact that all the droids and the Jedi were on their asses and/or faces indicates that it was overwhelming.
Rose-colored glasses much?
Oppress was not engaged in combat with the Jedi when he was surrounded by the droids. He was being peppered with blaster bolts and then unleashed a TK wave which gave him the chance to run away. Good for him.
By this kind of logic, Dooku overwhelmed three Jedi at Geonosis.
It's absolutely silly to think that the two are mutually exclusive; Opress was repeatedly injured first by Dooku and then by the droids throughout his final stay on the dreadnought. He put two of the Jedi's most seasoned warriors on the defensive and floored a contingent of Separatist droids. That he chose to flee because of the superior odds and injuries doesn't diminish the fact that he flattened them all with telekinesis. Would you describe Dooku's performance on Geonosis as "barely surviving"? Because, boy did he sure leave in a hurry.
See above. You're not thinking rationally and using the evidence in appropriate context here, all you're doing is viewing Oppress' feats through borderline fanboy goggles and construing any and all advantages he had as absolute and ultimate ones, and that's fallacious at best.
I could see if Oppress was battering the JEdi, they were panicking and sweating and afraid of imminent loss when the droids engage, and then he casually TKs everyone and walks away a winner. He doesn't. The Jedi gave ground intelligently, letting the warrior tire himself out so they could finish him. The limited headspace in the corridor meant that flanking and jumping was out of the question, so it was a matter of who made the first mistake. There was no conclusive advantage on either side period. And Obi/Anakin being caught in a TK wave does not translate into victory for that scenario either.
A couple of times throughout the other episodes of the Opress arc, but I'm not sure if it was with a lightsaber. I'll check.
Please do. I'd like to see more.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
facepalmAt the 5:53 mark, Dooku's Force lightning hurls Opress across the room. If you're thinking WTF, I mean to suggest that you have no way of determining whether that was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis. Now with that in mind,
His Force Lightning hurls him across the room? 😬
Dooku hits him like 4 times with lightning previously and he doesn't go hurtling through the air, merely forced to his knees, but does this time? Yeah, bullshit.
Neph
What does that even mean?
That according to the source material Dooku, like Sidious, is capable of lifting opponents' bodily with Force lightning if so inclined. If you mean to argue that a direct application of telekinesis was used, prove it. Otherwise, you can't successfully argue that it was Ventress and Ventress alone who hurled Opress across the room as Dooku applied Force lightning.
Consider when Windu was shot out of the Chancellor's office by Palpatine's Force lightning,
ROTS script
As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.
No mention of telekinesis. Clearly it is inherent in the nature of the attack; Sith can torturously immobilize their opponents or use Force lightning to remove them from the floor, as when Dooku hurled Ventress and her two Nightsister companions from his palace window.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I sense a budding fanboyism for Oppress! Who knew?
Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??
The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..
Neph
haermm What you think Windu gets hit by Sids lightning, gets electrocuted for a good few seconds and [b]then gets hit by the impact?[/b]
Neph
Or how about when Dookus lightning hurled Anakin [b]sideways?! 😆 [/B]
Fate of the Jedi: Outcast
It happened all at once: the Hidden One gesturing toward Luke, Ben leaping away, lightning flashing from the Hidden One's hands. It was not the purplish lightning of Emperor Palpatine, which had so nearly cost Luke his life nearly forty years before; it was all brilliant whiteness.Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head.
haermm
You have anything by way of proof beyond personal incredulity?