Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
😐

I'll bite: how did the fight look to you?

Well first I want to establish whether we watched the same clip. mmm

Lawlz.

I'll watch the second clip here in a bit. I think you're confusing momentary advantage with decisive victory here. Again, it's not unlike saying something like "Dooku beat Yoda because he was able to hold off Yoda better than anyone else in the series and win the fight by using his OMG TK to drop something on Anakin and Obi-Wan". You can also spice it up with "overwhelm", "dominate", and "Made the Jedi his *****", but it's still misconstruing the point.

Would Oppress be a good challenge for Obi and Anakin and by extension Kit Fisto? Sure. Do I think they'd walk all over him? No. So don't argue as if you address that; argue objectively about his "advantages". The point remains that Oppress uses the Force in bursts to separate himself from his foes, but he does not conclusively overcome them with it or sabers. Hell, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan "drove back" Maul in the same way Oppress "drove back" the Jedi. Yet it was clear in the end who was superior.

Opress drove back Opress wut

I edited that just now.

Janus stop spelling it with two 'p's.

Originally posted by Eminence
Janus stop spelling it with two 'p's.

Oppess.

Now I'm going to do it to piss you off.

Win.

SM
Yet it was clear in the end who was superior.

Wait, what? Are you saying [it was clear that] they were superior to Opress or are you referring to Maul and his combatants?

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Wait, what? Are you saying [it was clear that] they were superior to Opress or are you referring to Maul and his combatants?

Dude, reading comprehension. Put the Red Bull and cocain down and reread:

The point remains that Oppress uses the Force in bursts to separate himself from his foes, but he does not conclusively overcome them with it or sabers. Hell, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan "drove back" Maul in the same way Oppress "drove back" the Jedi. Yet it was clear in the end who was superior.

1. The obvious point is that Oppess is being contrasted with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM. To understand this, you have to remember the battle and/or review it for comparison.

2. Oppess drives his foes back with an aggressive assault in combat, whether it's Force driven or saber combat. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Ataru, and aggressive fighting style, with limited TK. In both cases, their opponents acted defensively, giving ground and waiting for the opportunity to strike.

3. It would be folly to assume that the aggressors are superior because the others give ground on that alone. So objectively, we would not come to this conclusion without sufficient evidence elsewhere.

4. In the only neutral setting combat we see in that video Oppess drives his goes back, but gains no tactical advantage or utilizes any openings (in the video I didn't see any openings).

5. It's reasonable to assume that simply driving them back isn't an indication of superiority, as experienced opponents will sometimes give ground to wait for openings.

Conclusion: The above comparison draws to light the point that Oppess was not necessarily the victor because he "drove them back". This, coupled with the previous arguments against Oppess' inability to actually TKO anyone with the Force, ruins ur argumentz.

I was simply asking for clarification. I understand the point of your analogy, but it could very well have followed that you were asserting that, as was the case with Maul and co., that the aggressors were actually inferior to the defender, hence why I asked rather than assumed. 😉

SM
Dude, reading comprehension. Put the Red Bull and cocain down and reread:

😂

This is going in the profile.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.

Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
I was simply asking for clarification. I understand the point of your analogy, but it could very well have followed that you were asserting that, as was the case with Maul and co., that the aggressors were actually inferior to the defender, hence why I asked rather than assumed. 😉

😂

This is going in the profile.

Oh snap, grammar fail!

Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.

I love people who resolve observational arguments with "derp, it's clear evidence shown on [...] screen". Because nothing resolves conflict like telling people it's true without demonstrating the logical reasons why with an argument.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You didn't have to.
Clearly you didn't believe Force lightning alone could do the trick otherwise you wouldn't have attempted to assert that Dooku's attack was insufficient to hurl Opress backwards and instead was the sole product of Ventress's telekinesis.

Nope! I merely pointed out that his lightning had nowhere near the same potency earlier. In future you should remember that when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

Application. At times, Dooku simply wanted to punish; other times, he wanted Opress away from him.

What? 😬

They were ****ing fighting.

LjnMb8xQ1zM&feature=fvst

To further nail the coffin shut on whether or not Force lightning is capable of telekinetic properties, at 2:50 and 4:35, Palpatine is capable of hurling Kota aside like a ragdoll.

Dude, I know it can hit with force. It hurled Yoda backwards in the movie remember.

That does not give it telekinetic properties though. 😐

If you intend to argue that an application of telekinesis outside of Force lightning was at play here, it's your burden to prove.

Well how about that Dookus lightning hadn't previously caused him to hurtle across the room and that Ventress Force Pushed him? I'm pretty sure the Force Push stands as 'an application of telekinesis outside of Force lightning' don't you?

Jeez, I'm gone for a day and this thread has runaway lol.

Anyway, back to watching UM vs. ND...Go Blue!

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
4tO6mIyNAzg&feature=related

Opress's first fight as Dooku's apprentice begins at the 5:03 mark.

Okay, finally watched this. First thoughts?

1. Good intro for the character. Nice to see the darker side of the show.

2. His physical strength is again showcased. He can lift a grown Zabrak above shoulder level and break his neck with one hand.

3. Good to see a Jedi using hand to hand combat in an aggressive, rapid way.

4. Opress easily slaughters a Jedi and padawan of unknown prowess who do not fight as a single unit.

5. Anyone else thought that the Republic defense plan at that temple door was just plain stupid? "Stand in staggered formation and fire straight ahead! Victory is ours! Oh shit, some Zabrak with a metal polearm!"

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]

I love people who resolve observational arguments with "derp, it's clear evidence shown on [...] screen". Because nothing resolves conflict like telling people it's true without demonstrating the logical reasons why with an argument.

Righhhhttt... So I need to logically explain to you why Maul is > Qui-Gon, and why Dooku is > Obi-Wan, because clearly without Vulcan logic nobody could deduce that just from the fights we've seen on screen... Hmmm Yeah your right Stealth, my logic could never touch your level (and wouldn't want to tbh)

Where did Obi-One show he even touches Oppress's league??

When was the last time Obi-Wan threw away 3 Destroyer droids plus a load of battle droids and 2 Jedi with a force wave??

When did Obi-Wan ever put Dooku on the floor in close combat??

As for all the Oppress vs Obi-Wan fights, it was Oppress constantly driving back Obi-Wan (and Anakin) in the lightsaber battle, and it was Oppress who chucked Obi-Wan (and Anakin) across a large room with the Force..

What has Obi-Wan showed? Nothing. This is a completely one sided thread. But yeah great logic Stealth 👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Righhhhttt... So I need to logically explain to you why Maul is > Qui-Gon, and why Dooku is > Obi-Wan, because clearly without Vulcan logic nobody could deduce that just from the fights we've seen on screen... Hmmm Yeah your right Stealth, my logic could never touch your level (and wouldn't want to tbh)

No, it wouldn't "touch my level". You're completely missing the point:

Simply saying "Derp, it's on screen, this is what happened, end debate" isn't proving anything. Everyone has different (read: subjective) viewpoints from which they observe and judge events. Rarely will two people will see a piece of evidence and come to the same conclusions unless there is a clear argument in favor of that conclusion.

Your stance is this: "It's on the screen, therefore it's self-evident". This isn't an argument, it's proof by assertion. If you intend to argue that point conclusively, you have to demonstrate your reasoning with specific events, sources, and rational arguments. The whole "Derp de derp, ur wrong lol" approach only serves to remind us of how awesomely mature you are with your all-caps screen name.

Where did Obi-One show he even touches Oppress's league??

This isn't a logical argument. You assume that Opress is beyond Obi-Wan's league by asserting that Obi-Wan hasn't touched anyone "in" his league. You haven't substantiated what league Opress is in using sources.

When was the last time Obi-Wan threw away 3 Destroyer droids plus a load of battle droids and 2 Jedi with a force wave??

Here you are arguing a specific feat unrelated to Force user to Force user combat and expanding it into a clear showing of martial superiority. The problem with this feat is twofold: neither Anakin or Obi-Wan were directly attempting to absorb/redirect the TK, and it does not give Opress a clear-cut advantage in neutral combat. Opress unleashed a tremendous wave of power in a short burst because he was enraged due to the beating he had taken for the last few minutes and the fact that the droids were almost killing him.

It's not like he spams this without a care in the world in combat and it totally incaps his foes; it doesn't. So don't argue it as the absolute end when it's a mere facet of his ability and one that's not conclusive to boot.

When did Obi-Wan ever put Dooku on the floor in close combat??

In three passes, without even using his saber, Dooku has Opress on the ground.

Even thouh Opress is angry at Dooku's taunts, he is disarmed in a few short parries. Mind you, Dooku is using one hand style against Opress, who is immensely strong.

Opress rushes blindly at Dooku in a rage and is floored.

I'd like you to demonstrate when Obi-Wan ever demonstrated such horrible technique against Dooku. Please.

As for all the Oppress vs Obi-Wan fights, it was Oppress constantly driving back Obi-Wan (and Anakin) in the lightsaber battle, and it was Oppress who chucked Obi-Wan (and Anakin) across a large room with the Force..

Missing the point. Opress, as the aggressive, enraged fighter, fights offensively. He must move forward, because defense is not his style and does not benefit him. Obi-Wan is a defensive fighter, and Anakin has a tight defense too, even though he favors the strong arm approach. So when Opress begins to windmill towards them, and there's no room to flank him, it is perfectly logical to give ground and hold a tight weave of defense.

This does not conclusively prove they are weaker. If anything, it proves they are smarter than Opress, who - while brutal and shimmering with potential - is a stupid brute in combat, as Dooku showed quite well.

Secondly, the Force push (which may have benefited from the rage Opress was feeling before they came in), isn't conclusive either. Why? Because momentary advantages with surprise TK are extremely common in the SW series.

Opress, after being shocked by Force lightning seven times, goes rawr and TK's both Ventress and Dooku. We would not argue that, based on this one instance, Opress > Dooku. And this is especially true seeing as Dooku routinely humiliates the less skilled Opress in all previous media.

Opress' Dark Side Rage STR boost after this is considerable, but it's entirely conditional. It took a hell of a beating and a lot of resentment against his foes to unleash. And even then, he was all balls, no measure.

To reiterate: Opress is enraged, having been humiliated by Ventress and Dooku, and they are apparently beyond his reach. Enter Obi-Wan and Anakin.

In his rage, he TK's them both out of the room. They recover within moments.

Later in the same video, we see Ventress surprise Dooku by TKing his blade slightly away from her and instead hitting the steam pipe. Keep in mind that Dooku had just disarmed her using TK alone. We would not assume Ventress "overwhelmed" Dooku in this case; she simply profited from the element of surprise.

What has Obi-Wan showed? Nothing. This is a completely one sided thread. But yeah great logic Stealth 👆

Nothing? Now I know you're talking out of your ass. Obi-Wan has defeated Maul, Ventress, Grievous, and Anakin Skywalker in combat. Who has Opress defeated? Halsey the relative unknown and his Nautolan apprentice?

Obi-Wan versus Dooku, AotC. This is before his subsequent growth in the Clone Wars, where he fought many skilled opponents and usually came out alive if not entirely on top.

Notice how even though he relinquished the advantage to Dooku in attacking head on, he still maintained an in-close defense unlike Savage "Whups, where'd my saber go" Opress.

Anakin and Obi-Wan versus Dooku, RotS.

Anakin and Obi-Wan work in concert to try and flank Count Dooku. Anakin in particular acts as a distraction, hammering right at the Count while Obi-Wan circles for a flanking maneuver. Dooku, fighting defensively, manages to avoid being pinched in their attack.

This is a smart tactical move in combat. Kit Fisto has trained extensively with Obi-Wan before, and he favors an aggressive and somewhat hard to predict style similar to Anakin, yet as evidenced in his fight with Grievous he still maintains an intelligent defense. And he tooled Grievous faster than even Obi-Wan in this melee, even if he did have the element of surprise for a few seconds, he relinquished it and was beating Grievous head-on.

Now... what were you saying about Obi-Wan having nothing on Opress? Because I'm pretty sure I just obliterated your argument.

^ Lol @ obliterating my argument. Those are some of the worst arguments iv seen on these forums simply because your just arguing from a view of complete denial of the league Oppress is in. Will address your points later when I have time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're completely missing the point:

Simply saying "Derp, it's on screen, this is what happened, end debate" isn't proving anything. Everyone has different (read: subjective) viewpoints from which they observe and judge events. Rarely will two people will see a piece of evidence and come to the same conclusions unless there is a clear argument in favor of that conclusion.

Your stance is this: "It's on the screen, therefore it's self-evident". This isn't an argument, it's proof by assertion. If you intend to argue that point [b]conclusively, you have to demonstrate your reasoning with specific events, sources, and rational arguments. The whole "Derp de derp, ur wrong lol" approach only serves to remind us of how awesomely mature you are with your all-caps screen name. [/B]

Actually its you who has completely missed my point and chose not to address the specific examples I gave. Sometimes you are just shown on screen 2 people fight and one clearly being superior.

Examples are Maul vs Qui-Gon, Dooku vs Obi-Wan..

Now are you really suggesting we need more evidence than what we saw on screen to prove Maul > Qui-Gon, or that Dooku > Obi-Wan???

Im suggesting from what we saw of their fight on screen Opress's superiority to Obi-Wan is as clear as those 2 above examples.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This isn't a logical argument. You assume that Opress is beyond Obi-Wan's league by asserting that Obi-Wan hasn't touched anyone "in" his league. You haven't substantiated what league Opress is in using sources.

Again what I have been asserting is that Opress is in a league above Obi-Wan based on:

1) Their fights against each other.
2) Opress's feats which in 2 episodes of CW are beyond anything Obi-Wan has shown... Like Ever.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Here you are arguing a specific feat unrelated to Force user to Force user combat and expanding it into a clear showing of martial superiority. The problem with this feat is twofold: neither Anakin or Obi-Wan were directly attempting to absorb/redirect the TK,

Very poor excuse especially considering it wasn't the first time he Force threw them..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and it does not give Opress a clear-cut advantage in neutral combat. Opress unleashed a tremendous wave of power in a short burst because he was enraged due to the beating he had taken for the last few minutes and the fact that the droids were almost killing him.

So what if he was enraged? He did it, and was using his rage to produce a tremendous amout of Power (way beyond the likes of Obi-Wan) for a good few minutes. Theres absolutely nothing suggesting he wnt be able to let loose like that again. And considering you made this thread specifying everyone is in their Prime as of the CW just makes your point here even more moot.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In three passes, without even using his saber, Dooku has Opress on the ground.

Even thouh Opress is angry at Dooku's taunts, he is disarmed in a few short parries. Mind you, Dooku is using one hand style against Opress, who is immensely strong.

I'd like you to demonstrate when Obi-Wan ever demonstrated such horrible technique against Dooku. Please.

This here is the worst point you've brought up, while completely ignoring the point I made.

That was Opress's first lesson with Dooku!! Talk about Lowballing! Again your the one who specified the characters are in their Prime as of the CW!

Now to my point you convinently did not address and instead went off on a random rant.. Lets see what Opress was doing after being trained (but before his Rage boost mind you):

With the Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB69fNAFA4E go to 0:43..

Has Obi-Wan Ever thrown a ship that large one handed?? Ever??

And of course their were the multiple stone pillars he was lifting while under pressure from Dooku, but for now Im just gna prove you wrong using the Calm Savage (but after training from Dooku)..

In Close Combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xbglrc8V44 go to 1:15 up until 1:25..

Dooku has put Ventress to the floor in Lightsaber combat, then at 1:15 Opress challenges Dooku to a one on one in close combat, and by 1:22 he puts Dooku to the floor!! Count friggin Dooku..

Dooku of course dominates him with his Force Lightning before Savage can give the death blow, but when was the last time Obi-Wan put Dooku to the floor (even while fighting alongside Anakin).. Il save you a lot of time checking by telling you Its Never Happened!

So like I said before and like is Obvious to anyone whose watched those episodes (but who are not Savage Haters or not in Complete denial) Obi-Wan has NOTHING on Savage.. Nothing. Savage is a tier above him, in the Force and in close combat. End of.

Good lawd, fanboy rage engage!

Let's see if our winner, "DARTH POWAH", can actually manage a decent rebuttal!

^ Lol @ obliterating my argument. Those are some of the worst arguments iv seen on these forums simply because your just arguing from a view of complete denial of the league Oppress is in. Will address your points later when I have time.

Translation: LOLDERP! I'm acting all witty and sarcastic and then immediately saying you're in denial of Opress' league, even if I haven't conclusively proved Opress' league. Burden of proof is on you, derp!

Actually its you who has completely missed my point and chose not to address the specific examples I gave. Sometimes you are just shown on screen 2 people fight and one clearly being superior.

Examples are Maul vs Qui-Gon, Dooku vs Obi-Wan..

Now are you really suggesting we need more evidence than what we saw on screen to prove Maul > Qui-Gon, or that Dooku > Obi-Wan???

Im suggesting from what we saw of their fight on screen Opress's superiority to Obi-Wan is as clear as those 2 above examples.

Translation: LOLDERP! I'm still arguing that all perceptions should be uniform and that subjective viewpoints and judgments should not exist because I saw X and therefore if you didn't see X, you're in denial; it's impossible that your point could also be valid because you didn't see it through my eyes.

Candid Rebuttal: Really, Darth Derp, we have to come to a foundation for objective debate before we can continue. If you insist that "LOL stuff is obvious no subjectivity", then I'm not wasting any more time with you. If you cannot point out specifics in media you and I both saw and draw those specifics into a half-assed argument to support your LOLASSERTION, then we're done here. I'm not wasting my time with your foolishness.

Again what I have been asserting is that Opress is in a league above Obi-Wan based on:

1) Their fights against each other.
2) Opress's feats which in 2 episodes of CW are beyond anything Obi-Wan has shown... Like Ever.

Translation: LOLDERP! First point is obvious; Opress is in a higher league because I said/saw that he's in a higher league. Any burden of proof for my argument apparently is axiomatic, and Obi-Wan is inferior which is also axiomatic.

Second point, Opress being humiliated in combat by Dooku, killing two unknown and unimportant Jedi, and later being really strong physically in combat with about four people (none of which he defeated) cements his position well over Obi-Wan Kenobi. Never mind that Kenobi has tons of victories under his belt, that he's known as the foremost defensive fighter in the entire Jedi Order, and that he performs much better against Dooku at a time before his peak than Opress ever did at his peak or ever for that matter.

Me: Basically, Darth Derp, you're hamstringing yourself by arguing Opress' martial prowess based on the two episodes where he's routinely beaten down by everyone and kills two people of no real significance whatsoever. If him being really strong and looking like Darth Maul makes you moist, then so be it. Just admit to the bias. But don't pretend that you're arguing intelligently with things like "LOL it's obvious he's uber, end of debate, Obi sux!"

Very poor excuse especially considering it wasn't the first time he Force threw them..

So... basically, you're saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan suck for not absorbing a rage-fueled Force wave in the middle of a firefight with droids, but Opress - who all but runs into Sith lightning seven, eight times in a single setting - is somehow better?

Are you even reading this before you click "Submit Reply"?

So what if he was enraged? He did it, and was using his rage to produce a tremendous amout of Power (way beyond the likes of Obi-Wan) for a good few minutes. Theres absolutely nothing suggesting he wnt be able to let loose like that again. And considering you made this thread specifying everyone is in their Prime as of the CW just makes your point here even more moot.

You're missing the point so badly it's sad really.

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

I mean really, are you going to grasp at straws now? So should I argue "Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, both eating bota, versus Opress who is in rawr!emo mode and Ventress who just broke a nail"?

This here is the worst point you've brought up, while completely ignoring the point I made.

That was Opress's first lesson with Dooku!! Talk about Lowballing! Again your the one who specified the characters are in their Prime as of the CW!

What universe are you from, exactly?

Opress' showings take place in a very small timeframe, this training being the one which immediately precedes the fight with Anakin/Obi and Ventress/Dooku.

In it, we see Opress being sloppy (a product of his relative inexperience with saber combat and against Force users), and balls-out stupid (because he rages and rushes head-first into all of his fights. This starts at the training and goes right through until the fight with all of the above).

This isn't "low-balling", Opress hasn't shown tremendous growth since the time of this training with Dooku. And if anything, it best shows his fighting style because he does almost the exact same thing later on.

This here is the worst point you've brought up, while completely ignoring the point I made.

That was Opress's first lesson with Dooku!! Talk about Lowballing! Again your the one who specified the characters are in their Prime as of the CW!

Now to my point you convinently did not address and instead went off on a random rant.. Lets see what Opress was doing after being trained (but before his Rage boost mind you):

With the Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB69fNAFA4E go to 0:43..

Has Obi-Wan Ever thrown a ship that large one handed?? Ever??

Wait, so let me get this straight...

You think Opress > Obi-wan because he pushed the narrow standing supports of a ship and its own heavy weight caused it to tumble over the side?

You see those sparks? That's him TKing the supports He's not lifting the whole ship up and chucking it, or TKing the entire side of the ship (because if he did, it would move without tipping over, having been hit by equal force).

Doing that is not outside of the realm of Anakin or Obi-Wan, and furthermore, it's not a conclusive way of winning a battle. Unless Obi-Wan is strapped in to said starship and Opress pushes its supports over and Obi-Wan can't get out in time, guess what? This doesn't mean jack.

And of course their were the multiple stone pillars he was lifting while under pressure from Dooku, but for now Im just gna prove you wrong using the Calm Savage (but after training from Dooku)..

He had to be enraged to even lift two, whereas Dooku lifted like 6-10 of them without apparent effort. What's your point here? Lifting stuff with TK doesn't equal decisively beating folks in saber fights. Welcome to Star Wars.

In Close Combat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xbglrc8V44 go to 1:15 up until 1:25..

Dooku has put Ventress to the floor in Lightsaber combat, then at 1:15 Opress challenges Dooku to a one on one in close combat, and by 1:22 he puts Dooku to the floor!! Count friggin Dooku..

Dooku of course dominates him with his Force Lightning before Savage can give the death blow, but when was the last time Obi-Wan put Dooku to the floor (even while fighting alongside Anakin).. Il save you a lot of time checking by telling you Its Never Happened!

LOLDERP. You are basically saying that Opress landing one hit with his humongous retard strength and knocking Dooku down is conclusively making him better than Obi-Wan because.... he's really strong?

Did you miss the part where Dooku was dancing around the blade for seconds there? Or the part before where Dooku disarmed and humiliated Opress with one hand? Opress rage gives him a strength boost, but it's situational. If you're going to argue Opress > Obi-Wan because "when he gets mad, he can knock down Dooku!", you should lose your internet license.

So like I said before and like is Obvious to anyone whose watched those episodes (but who are not Savage Haters or not in Complete denial) Obi-Wan has NOTHING on Savage.. Nothing. Savage is a tier above him, in the Force and in close combat. End of.

Translation: I am reaffirming my bias with proof by assertion. Logos, schmogos, I'm saying you're in denial or you're a Savage hatur because you cannot see how awesome he is. I mean sure, he gets bitchsmacked around like the only ginger in the household and he's only ever beaten two unknowns in combat, but he's somehow better than well-established warriors of renown on the basis that he's rawr!strong, and he can knock people down with TK or his big Donkey Kong arms. Also, he has horns! And a MAUL SABUR!! !OFM#SRGUIBEGF SABUR!!!!!!!

Sorry... Got too "in-character there".

The bottom line, Darth Fail, is that you lose the debate by simply agreeing not to debate. I'm done with you. Here's the cookie for showing up:

You just commented recently about how you have missed Advent's "more comprehensive debating style."

Calling names ("Darth Derp"😉 doesn't lend itself to a comprehensive argument; it made me not want to read to the end. Being angry about something like this is silly and stupid.

Chill the fuck out.