Originally posted by Uriel005Disagree, Nabu was still going to toe to toe with Mordru during the Crisis, and they were all ants next to Spectre's power[even Nabu took note of this and wondered why he wasn't killed outright.], who Captain Marvel was comparable to.
maybe earlier in JSA spectre but as time went on he really did start to outpace Nabu and Shazam. IDK Mordru feats just seem more impressive to me and then there's the fact that it's basically a given he will be last man standing in the fight between order/chaos based on his capabilities to absorb/inability to die... ever. His origins are beyond the universe and his end is beyond entropy of everything. He's got a nasty habit of absorbing intangible forces and the power of others even when the power he's trying to take is completely ridiculous... If the fight goes on long enough I see Marvel getting drained.
Originally posted by Juntai
Disagree, Nabu was still going to toe to toe with Mordru during the Crisis, and they were all ants next to Spectre's power[even Nabu took note of this and wondered why he wasn't killed outright.], who Captain Marvel was comparable to.
Would you say Nabu=Mordru or is Mordru more formidable?
Mordru wins, imo. Here's my opinion on the matter...
We saw Billy put up a decent fight against Spectre -to the point where Spectre was "nearly" depleted of power- before getting owned. We then saw the wizard Shazam himself put up an even better fight against Spectre -to the point where Shazam could detect "no" power within Spectre- before he too was owned.
In short:
It took most of Spectre's power to match Billy:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg
And it took all of his power (and then some) to match Shazam.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9917/73222031.jpg
Ergo, Shazam > DoV Billy.
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Having said that, Shazam blasted base-level Mordru with the most powerful attack he could muster (from within the RoE):
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3978/84135256.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3513/96375991.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1589/13170990.jpg
As you can see, Mordru was left completely unscathed by the attack, whereas Shazam overextended himself to such a degree that he was all but powerless and could barely stand afterward.
Thus it could be argued that base-level Mordru =/> Shazam > Billy. Adding Mordru's JSA amp to the mix only serves to widen the gap. Also keep in mind that Billy's inherent weakness is that he was unable to sustain the vast powers he had for very long before burning out. Mordru never had that problem.
Originally posted by Galan007
We then saw the wizard Shazam himself put up an even better fight against Spectre -to the point where Shazam could detect "no" power within Spectre- before he too was owned.And it took all of his power (and then some) to match Shazam.
Good argument except for this part ^
Shazam put up a fight and I admit I thought Spectre was in real trouble but he regenerated from that attack, grabbed Shazam and look what happened.
Shazam resisted at first but when Spectre got serious he cleaned house. Literally.
Originally posted by SundippedYou completely missed my point. When Spectre got "serious" he owned everyone in his path with little difficulty. I am just talking about who did better against him between Billy and Shazam- and Shazam definitely takes the cake there.
Good argument except for this part ^
Shazam put up a fight and I admit I thought Spectre was in real trouble but he regenerated from that attack, grabbed Shazam and look what happened.Shazam resisted at first but when Spectre got serious he cleaned house. Literally.
Like I said: it took MOST of Spectre's power to beat Billy -- but it literally took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
One thing to remember is that Billy was suddenly cut off from his power source. Is that the case here as well?
Also, the Wizard obviously had no clue how much power Spectre had.
He sense no power, and then Spectre stood right back up and called him an ignorant backwater conjurer for thinking such a thing, then owned him promptly.
Originally posted by JuntaiSpectre mentioned that exhaustion is one of the key elements that led to Billy's downfall. His body simply isn't used to wielding that much power- thus he burned out toward the end.
One thing to remember is that Billy was suddenly cut off from his power source. Is that the case here as well?Also, the Wizard obviously had no clue how much power Spectre had.
He sense no power, and then Spectre stood right back up and called him an ignorant backwater conjurer for thinking such a thing, then owned him promptly.
Shazam certainly had a clue how much power Spectre had. Shazam knew he couldn't kill Spectre, but he also sensed that there was no power left within him at that point in time. What Shazam was unaware of is Spectre's ability to absorb magic from anywhere- which is ultimately how he was owned. Either way, it's pretty clear (imo) that Shazam was victorious in 'round one' of their battle. The same cannot be said about Billy.
Originally posted by Galan007
You completely missed my point. When Spectre got "serious" he owned everyone in his path with little difficulty. I am just talking about who did better against him between Billy and Shazam- and Shazam definitely takes the cake there.Like I said: it took MOST of Spectre's power to beat Billy -- but it literally took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
No you got it backwards. It took most of Spectre's power to stalemate Billy, but really nothing to murder Shazam.
Only Shazam's artifacts mounted the offense. Who's to say that attack wouldn't have done the same to Mordu. Other than that, Spectre proceded to call him ignorant and said that he is power. He drained him, murdered him, destroyed ROE and left in perfectly good condition.
Spectre admitted he was drained of power (in sharp contrast to what he said to Shazam) and sensed Billy was too. Then he unleashed 1 last attack leaving Billy face down while Spectre had to be carried off.
Big difference.
^ g007-psyduck You still aren't seeing my point...
The conclusion of Spectre and Billy's battle:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg
"You're nearly as drained of magic as I am." Spectre's statement implies that, while his magical energies had substantially decreased, they were not completely depleted- he still had quite a bit of power left to spare.
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Other side of the coin, here's the first conclusion of Spectre and Shazam's battle (ie. "round ONE"😉:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9892/unledscanned16r.jpg
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9917/73222031.jpg
"I detect NO power left in him." Shazam's statement implies that Spectre was completely powerless at that point in time. It was only AFTER he absorbed the RoE's magics that Spectre went on to trounce Shazam (ie. in "round TWO".)
So like I said: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
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And because you're likely going to be inclined to say something like: "Hey! Spectre couldn't have been powerless, cuz his mangled body got up and talked to Shazam in the same scan you posted!!11!!!!1!" -- I'd like to remind you that Spectre can be fully functional and completely powerless at the same time. Case in point: when Black Alice absorbed his very essence:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6010/unledscanned21.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7788/unledscanned22.jpg
...So yeah.
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebThe backlash Spectre experienced after he pulled the scepter out of Eclipso is what really seemed to f*ck him up. It was certainly the final straw.
Didn't Spectre need some time out to go heal himself after the Billy fight?
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebSpectre didn't have any power... Until he absorbed magic from the RoE.
As opposed to just Shazam saying he's got no power, and then Spectre promptly getting up and wrecking shit up
He didn't even attempt to absorb any ambient magic after he trounced Billy.
Originally posted by Galan007Or the asskicking from Billy
The backlash Spectre experienced after he pulled the scepter out of Eclipso is what really seemed to f*ck him up. It was certainly the final straw.Spectre didn't have any power... Until he absorbed magic from the RoE.
He didn't even attempt to absorb any ambient magic after he trounced Billy.
Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?
Originally posted by Galan007
^ g007-psyduck You still aren't seeing my point...The conclusion of Spectre and Billy's battle:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8030/27463823.jpg"You're nearly as drained of magic as I am." Spectre's statement implies that, while his magical energies had substantially decreased, they were not completely depleted- he still had quite a bit of power left to spare.
I understand this. He only had enough for one more attack. He had to be carried off after that.
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Other side of the coin, here's the first conclusion of Spectre and Shazam's battle (ie. "round ONE"😉:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9892/unledscanned16r.jpg
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9917/73222031.jpg"I detect NO power left in him." Shazam's statement implies that Spectre was completely powerless at that point in time. It was only AFTER he absorbed the RoE's magics that Spectre went on to trounce Shazam (ie. in "round TWO".)
What difference does it make if he was actually powerless or not? He still stomped him. He didn't stomp Billy. He let Shazam know that attack was basically a joke and that he is power. The key point is that it didn't keep Spectre down unlike his fight with Billy. Therefore Billy fared much better than Shazam. It's irrelevant if Spectre had any power left or not. Bottom line is he easily killed Shazam but had problems ith Billy.
So like I said: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
---
And because you're likely going to be inclined to say something like: "Hey! Spectre couldn't have been powerless, cuz his mangled body got up and talked to Shazam in the same scan you posted!!11!!!!1!" -- I'd like to remind you that Spectre can be fully functional and completely powerless at the same time. Case in point: when Black Alice absorbed his very essence:
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6010/unledscanned21.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7788/unledscanned22.jpg...So yeah.
If he can still be fully functional, what's the big deal about him being powerless or not? There was no mocking or joking with Billy. No tricks left up his sleeve like absorbing any remaining magic. It's not that hard to compare the two fights. How can you say Shazam fared better when Spectre basically laughed off his attack, murdered him and left under his own power? After fighting Billy, he could hardly stand up.
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Or the asskicking from BillyBecause Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?
Good point.
One more thing. Spectre said to Black Alice that "without my power nothings left but empty spirit". Meaning he would've been in an astral type form like shown here:
If what Shazam said was true, he should've been in this astral type form with no power inside ROE.
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebYou've just exposed a double standard.
Or the asskicking from BillyBecause Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebThe fight with Billy drained him- I've stated that much numerous times. But he was not completely drained of power, as he was vs. Shazam.
Or the asskicking from Billy
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebYou may want to brush up on the story again. Spectre was powerless after "round one" of his and Shazam's battle. He only "contradicted" Shazam after he absorbed extra power from the RoE (an ability Shazam was unaware of.)
Because Shazam said so? Spectre contradicted him in the next panel
I don't get how this is absolute proof of him having no power. If we take Shazam's statement about a completely nother character at face value, then why don't we take a statement made by Spectre about Spectre as the same?
Originally posted by SundippedYou're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.
What difference does it make if he was actually powerless or not? He still stomped him. He didn't stomp Billy. He let Shazam know that attack was basically a joke and that he [B]is power. The key point is that it didn't keep Spectre down unlike his fight with Billy. Therefore Billy fared much better than Shazam. It's irrelevant if Spectre had any power left or not. Bottom line is he easily killed Shazam but had problems ith Billy.[/B]
During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.
To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.
Hmm...this brings up a number of related issues.
Nabu and Shazam are Lords of Order. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order, this we know.
If Shazam drained Spectre of all his power, and Spectre had an easier time with Nabu than Shazam, then from where I'm sitting one of the following must be true:
1. It was Shazam's prep that enabled him to perform as well as he did. He is not normally capable of that level.
2. Spectre was more powerful when he fought Nabu than Shazam (absorbing the RoE increased his power)
3. Shazam did not perform better than Nabu
