Jsa Mordru Vs Dov Captain Marvel

Originally posted by Cogito
Hmm...this brings up a number of related issues.

Nabu and Shazam are Lords of Order. Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order, this we know.

If Shazam drained Spectre of all his power, and Spectre had an easier time with Nabu than Shazam, then from where I'm sitting one of the following must be true:

1. It was Shazam's prep that enabled him to perform as well as he did. He is not normally capable of that level.
2. Spectre was more powerful when he fought Nabu than Shazam (absorbing the RoE increased his power)
3. Shazam did not perform better than Nabu

I liken it to the Trainman from the Matrix films. He was all powerful inside the confines of the train station, but outside of it his power was not nearly as spectacular.

For some reason, that entirely slipped my mind. Ignore me 😬

Originally posted by Galan007
The fight with Billy drained him- I've stated that much numerous times. But he was not completely drained of power, as he was vs. Shazam.

You may want to brush up on the story again. Spectre was powerless after "round one" of his and Shazam's battle. He only "contradicted" Shazam after he absorbed extra power from the RoE (an ability Shazam was unaware of.)

You're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.

During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.

To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

You may want to brush up on the story again. When they started fighting, Shazam (expert of Spectre apparently) outright said Spectre was still weakened. Shazam fought a weakened Spectre (mind you the tie in points to Shazam being weakened too) and was about to get his head caved in until he utilized his artifacts. Billy at full power against a non weakened Spectre was handing him his ass. Shazam used his full arsenal against Spectre in a one shot move. Billy didn't fire off a killing shot, or put all his power into one attack, he was just punching him. Had Billy fired off a massive Shazam bolt, I have no doubt that Spectre would have been reduced to rubble, but like it said, Billy was 'methodically' beating Spectre.
In an example I know you'll understand... It's like saying Majin Vegeta is more powerful than SS3 Goku because Vegeta managed to almost completely obliterate Buu with his most powerful attack, while all Goku did was beat the shit out of him in every aspect, yet didn't obliterate him.

Also, when Spectre was shown to be draining magic, he had a green aura around him. He didn't have a green aura around him when he rose.
I know he drained magic, and I'm not denying he lost the initial conflict, but he still had power left even if it was a little, and this doesn't prove he was above Billy, especially since Billy WAS above Spectre on his own (well, with ten thousand other magical beings funneling power into him) by a sizable amount where Spectre was essentially a punching bag waiting to be 'destroyed'. Plus, iirc Shazam was also funneling more power into Billy at that time too... so...

None of this is relevant to Mordru anyway, since Shazam didn't even use the same type of attack against him

Well, I think writer intent was clear. Captain Marvel was meant to have faired better than any other being up until that point, vague statements notwithstanding.

Originally posted by Cogito
Well, I think writer intent was clear. Captain Marvel was meant to have faired better than any other being up until that point, vague statements notwithstanding.

Originally posted by Galan007 The reason Shazam did so well against Spectre is because the fight was waged in his place of power- the RoE. I liken it to the Trainman from the Matrix films. He was all powerful inside the confines of the train station, but outside of it his power was not nearly as spectacular.

good point. shazam is very formidable in the rock.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're ignoring the gargantuan difference between Spectre's battle with Billy, and his battle with Shazam: ie. his absorption of extra magical energy during the battle.

During Spectre's fight with Billy, he didn't have to absorb magical energy, because he beat Billy before the need arose.

To the contrary, Shazam effectively beat Spectre- that is to say: he owned Spectre to such an extent that he could sense no power left in him. But then Spectre displayed a power Shazam was unaware of: the ability to take magical energy from anywhere- even the RoE. Once Spectre absorbed that power, he killed off Shazam. That's why I keep saying: It took most of Spectre's power to beat Billy, but it took ALL of his power (and then some) to beat Shazam.

You're clinging on to Shazam's statement for dear life now.

What kills your whole argument is that it was stated on panel by Spectre himself that with absolutely no power he only exists as an astral spirit. Did he appear in this form vs Shazam? No. In the flesh, he still had the power to get up, grab and hold a high end Skyfather then procede to drain him.

You're putting too much stock into Shazam's comment and not acknowledging Spectre's mockery of him. Spectre questioned him by saying "no power"? as if Shazam didn't know what the hell he was talking about. He called him ignorant and told him he IS power. Spectre has no problem admitting when he has no power (vs. Black Alice) or even when he's losing it (vs. Billy). He gave no indication of either vs. Shazam.

Originally posted by Sundipped
What kills your whole argument is that it was stated on panel by Spectre himself that with absolutely no power he only exists as an astral spirit. Did he appear in this form vs Shazam? No. In the flesh,

Originally posted by Sundipped
he still had the power to get up, grab and hold a high end Skyfather [B]then procede to drain him. [/B]

Originally posted by Sundipped
You're putting too much stock into Shazam's comment and not acknowledging Spectre's mockery of him. Spectre questioned him by saying "no power"? as if Shazam didn't know what the hell he was talking about. He called him ignorant and told him he [B]IS power. Spectre has no problem admitting when he has no power (vs. Black Alice) or even when he's losing it (vs. Billy). He gave no indication of either vs. Shazam. [/B]

-Shazam-
"He's probably not dead. Can one kill a ghost? But we seem to have stopped him. I detect no power left in him."

-Spectre-
"No power? Ignorant backworld conjuror. I am power. I'm the undying spirit of vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution. And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone."

When Spectre said: "I am power" he seemed to be using it in the context that the concept he embodies will always exist as long as there's a need for it. When he said: "I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone" he seemed to imply that he can, and was, momentarily drained of magical power moments beforehand- he just cannot be permanently drained of power (which I never argued.)

That, coupled with the fact that Shazam was able to finish a few-sentence-long monologue before Spectre finally got up and "corrected" him, leads me to believe that he [Spectre] WAS briefly powerless.

---

Regardless, even if you don't agree that Spectre was powerless against Shazam, consider this: During Spectre's battle with Billy, he NEVER appeared to sustain any physical damage, and he NEVER fell- not even once. During his battle with Shazam, however, Spectre was grossly mangled, fell to the ground, and appeared to be (albeit momentarily) incapacitated. That in itself implies Shazam > Billy.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
(mind you the tie in points to Shazam being weakened too)

I looked over DoV again, it had been a while since I last read it.

I had remembered Captain Marvel being the last to fight the Spectre, but apparently it actually happened before Shazam and Nabu. And yes...I do think order is important here.

I'll now agree that Shazam > DoV CM. Shazam did have prep time and artifacts to help him, though. I'm not sure how they'd compare otherwise.

Had the battle taken place anywhere else but the RoE, Shazam would have been utterly stomped.

Originally posted by Galan007
Had the battle taken place anywhere else but the RoE, Shazam would have been utterly stomped.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Nabu fought the Spectre on neutral ground and I wouldn't say he got stomped. While Nabu is > Shazam, I'm not sure the difference is that great.

Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, You must be referring to Black Alice. If so, you might recall that she didn't just drain Spectre's power- she momentarily replaced the very concept he embodies. Hence her statement: "I'm the divine engine of vengeance now." So essentially, Spectre had no power OR purpose. That's why he was a ghost.

She didn't replace him as a concept. Only took his power. She would'nt have been eligible to recieve support from the Presence. Spectre is the sole appointed undying spirit of vengance. That was her bravado talking, overexaggerating.

You've got your order mixed up. Spectre only grabbed Shazam/absorbed his power after he began absorbing energy from the RoE and Shazam's relics:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9064/unledscanned17.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9035/unledscanned18.jpg

There was no order. I only mentioned Shazam's draining.
Here is the entire quote...

-Shazam-
"He's probably not dead. Can one kill a ghost? But we seem to have stopped him. I detect no power left in him."

-Spectre-
"No power? Ignorant backworld conjuror. I am power. I'm the undying spirit of vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution. And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone."

When Spectre said: "I am power" he seemed to be using it in the context that the concept he embodies will always exist as long as there's a need for it.

True.

When he said: "I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone" he seemed to imply that he can, and was, momentarily drained of magical power moments beforehand- he just cannot be permanently drained of power (which I never argued.)

That's only if you assume Shazam's attack was meant to drain Spectre. Shazam gave no indication that the attack was intended for that purpose. One thing I wanna point out is that Spectre made that comment just before absorbing everything present. To me, seemed like he was implying that as long as any magic is present he will never be deprived. Most importantly the magic within ROE.

That, coupled with the fact that Shazam was able to finish a few-sentence-long monologue before Spectre finally got up and "corrected" him, leads me to believe that he [Spectre] WAS briefly powerless.

Regeneration was in progress. That's how he went from mangled to normal. Beings get ko'ed for a period of time all the time in numerous ways but they aren't rendered powerless.

Regardless, even if you don't agree that Spectre was powerless against Shazam, consider this: During Spectre's battle with Billy, he NEVER appeared to sustain any physical damage, and he NEVER fell- not even once. During his battle with Shazam, however, Spectre was grossly mangled, fell to the ground, and appeared to be (albeit momentarily) incapacitated. That in itself implies Shazam > Billy.

Sorry Galan but imo I just didn't see Shazam's performance comming close to Billy's. Billy beat him to the equivalent of needing a stretcher. His fists>>>Shazam's last ditch effort.

Spectre did get rocked a few times and recieved damage tho. He didn't necessarily fall (buildings cushioned it) but then again the blows were the knockout type variety.

Originally posted by Cogito
Mordru's boss

Originally posted by Sundipped
She didn't replace him as a concept. Only took his power. She would'nt have been eligible to recieve support from the Presence. Spectre is the sole appointed undying spirit of vengance. That was her bravado talking, overexaggerating.

Originally posted by Sundipped
That's only if you assume Shazam's attack was meant to drain Spectre. Shazam gave no indication that the attack was intended for that purpose.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Regeneration was in progress. That's how he went from mangled to normal. Beings get ko'ed for a period of time all the time in numerous ways but they aren't rendered powerless.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Sorry Galan but imo I just didn't see Shazam's performance comming close to Billy's. Billy beat him to the equivalent of needing a stretcher. His fists>>>Shazam's last ditch effort.

Shazam, on the other hand, did briefly incapacitate Spectre. Hell, even after seeing Billy fight Spectre, Shazam still acted as though Billy's battle was only meant to delay Spectre long enough to give HIM enough time to prepare:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/unledscanned09.jpg/

Shazam > Billy. Proof is in the pudding. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007
In your opinion. However, Black Alice does more than just absorb power. She actually takes the entirety of what you are (so long as you're a magic-user, of course.) That's why Zatanna literally forgot how to cast spells after Alice took her powers, that's why Spectre turned into an astral spirit and could not function as "the spirit of vengeance", etc.

No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.

This is a very thin line of logic. Just because Spectre's powers were drained doesn't mean Shazam was casting some sort of power-absorbing spells. It just means that Spectre's power was taxed to such an extent that he simply ran out of juice. After all, Spectre commented that his powers were being drained in his fight with Billy -- and surely you don't think Billy's punches did anything but pound the power out of Spectre...

What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.

There's no reason to question Shazam's senses -- especially in HIS place of power. Actually, it's borderline ridiculous to do so. Having said that, if Shazam said he could sense no power left in Spectre, then the writer obviously intended that to be the case. Coupled with the fact that Spectre was mangled and momentarily incapacitated, it's perfectly logical to assume Spectre was powerless for a brief period of time.

It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.

Wrong. Spectre took everything Billy threw at him, answered back, and ultimately trounced him. At no point in time did Billy come close to incapacitating Spectre- even briefly.

It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.

Shazam, on the other hand, did briefly incapacitate Spectre. Hell, even after seeing Billy fight Spectre, Shazam still acted as though Billy's battle was only meant to delay Spectre long enough to give HIM enough time to prepare:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/unledscanned09.jpg/

All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

Shazam > Billy. Proof is in the pudding. 😛

Originally posted by Sundipped
No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.

What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.

It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.

It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.

All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

disgustThat pudding is spoiled. Expiration date around the same time as this arc.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually on the matter of absorbing and becoming... As far as the spectre goes the actual spirit was the angel Aztar. So I do believe that by absorbing the power of vengeance given to said angel would essentially make you the spectre due to it's inherent nature as the literal vengeance of god. Normally I would agree and say absorbing someones power doesn't make you something else but as far as I'm aware from the fight Alice straight out says that she's the spirit of vengeance and that his power is hers. Considering it's the power the vengeance of god gives the spectre which actually makes him what he is I'm inclined to believe that someone taking it for their own makes them assume the mantle.

Of course BA can say she's the spirit of vengeance because she stole his powers but do you think she'd be entitled to an amp from Presence? Exaggerated hyperbole occurs all the time in comics. At the time this happened, if both desired support from Presence, who do you think would be the beneficiary?

Originally posted by Sundipped
No. All she does is steal power. She doesn't upsurp the essence of whatever said entity. That's like saying if she stole Dr. Strange's powers she'd be the new sorcerer supreme. Spectre is basically spirit anyway so it was still functional according to the nature of what it really is.

What Shazam did was a potent all out artifacts attack hich happened to leave Spectre's torso open. Spectre regenerated, arose, then began to absorb everything. It's plain as day. Spectre was never really in any trouble. It didn't go so smoothly with Billy.

It could also be intended for the writer to make you think that Shazam thought he was right but really wasn't. Just because Shazam couldn't detect it doesn't mean it couldn't be hidden. It took something for Spectre to get himself back together. He was fully formed and back up. This was before he drained anything.

It's like we're camparing an outright murder to a basically even fight. Billy did what Shazam couldn't: Remain alive and leave the opposition in a bad condition.

All that prep and he still died. The main event was Billy and Spectre. Shazam seemed like a pieca a cake.

disgustThat pudding is spoiled. Expiration date around the same time as this arc.

...I enjoyed the discussion, though. 👆

Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually on the matter of absorbing and becoming... As far as the spectre goes the actual spirit was the angel Aztar. So I do believe that by absorbing the power of vengeance given to said angel would essentially make you the spectre due to it's inherent nature as the literal vengeance of god. Normally I would agree and say absorbing someones power doesn't make you something else but as far as I'm aware from the fight Alice straight out says that she's the spirit of vengeance and that his power is hers. Considering it's the power the vengeance of god gives the spectre which actually makes him what he is I'm inclined to believe that someone taking it for their own makes them assume the mantle.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not going to take the time to respond to all of this individually. Tbh I'm exceedingly burnt out on this circular topic (mainly because I recently debated it in another thread as well.) Regardless, I still disagree with your stance entirely, for reasons I already mentioned.

...I enjoyed the discussion, though. 👆

👆

I was hoping you were gonna say that because if you didn't I was going to in my next post.

By the way, I knew you were going to agree with Uriel. And because of that you both get 2 thumbs down. 👇 👇

😎