Sauron vs Snape

Shut up, Quan.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
[B]No, you haven't, but the line i quoted is an example of downplay.

If that's the case then the ring is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things*

*Assuming they didn't actually realize it would destroy mordor entirely.

If that is the case then Aragorn would never have lead the survivors of the horrors of war on yet another suicide mission just to buy Frodo time. He liked Frodo that's true, but there's nothing supporting the theory he weighed Frodo's life over all those he lead to the Black Gate.

So you think Aragorn led them on a suicide mission because... ?

I have a weakness for implied stuff this is true... but so's your face! (?)

All women have a weakness for my face. It is rather lovable.

Eh, the focus of the films is about destroying the ring to prevent Saurons return. Apparently that's pretty important if it's the focus of 3 books, and the best selling novel of all time dude ;p

The Bible is the best selling book of all time. 313

Most people i find have already made up their minds about such topics the moment they read the title. Even circumstances seldom changes an opinion. But I'll play along for awhile. If only due to the sheer insult to Sauron that Snape could kill him... 😛

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Why do you think they wouldn't know that? Gandalf especially?

I see it from the point of veiw that something like; Oh but if we destroy this ring we don't need to worry about morder anymore, would be something that would have been mentioned....

It's pretty silly to think they knew it, and never mentioned it, not even once, or even Hinted at it. Not a zip.

No sir, they didn't know. And if you insist they did I would have to ask for justifyable reasoning, because sweets, I just don't see it.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
So you think Aragorn led them on a suicide mission because... ?

Because he saw it as the chance to do what his ancestor Isildur could not. Destroy the ring, Destroy Sauron. With him out of the picture, the Orcs are leaderless, and become far less of a threat.

In short, the ends justify the means.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
All women have a weakness for my face. It is rather lovable.

The Bible is the best selling book of all time. 313

Just admit it. You love talking to me.

Weakness as in makes me reach for a paper bag? I would not disagree =3

The bible isn't a novel =p Besides, I'm not that into that kind of Fiction awesome

While I admit watching your list of reasoning crumble to nothingness has been amusing, I would not go so far to say as I love it vin

Originally posted by EvilAngel
[B]Why do you think they do?

I see it from the point of veiw that something like; Oh but if we destroy this ring we don't need to worry about morder anymore, would be something that would have been mentioned....

It's pretty silly to think they knew it, and never mentioned it, not even once, or even Hinted at it. Not a zip.

Because he saw it as the chance to do what his ancestor Isildur could not. Destroy the ring, Destroy Sauron. With him out of the picture, the Orcs are leaderless, and become far less of a threat.

Well, the difference between our thought processes on this is that I don't think the majority of the characters are morons. I don't think Aragorn would be stupid enough to think that he, with only 300 guys, could storm Mordor, slaughter Sauron's entire army, and throw the ring into Mount Doom. I think both he and Gandalf are smart enough to realize that humanity doesn't have the manpower to fight Saurons army and destroy it, ergo their only chance for survival is to toss the ring into the fire.

I really have to question what makes you think that all the sacrifices people made in the trilogy, in so far as to allow to Frodo to destroy the ring, were done out of the belief that destroying the ring would destroy only Sauron. If they believed that that they could deal with Sauron's army, and destroying him and only him was the only outcome of destroying the ring, then why destroy the ring at all? Sauron was just an eye. He didn't have any magical powers, he couldn't even move. He was stuck on a tower looking at people. If the humans could handle Sauron's army then all they would have had to do was hide the ring or keep it in their strongholds and destroy his army.

Or, there's my theory, which is that the wiser individuals such as Gandalf set this huge plan into motion to distract Sauron's gaze long enough for Frodo to destroy the ring, because he knew that Sauron's army would eventually overwhelm the free peoples, and that destroying the ring was the only way to defeat Mordor once and for all. Going by Occam's Razor, and Blaxican's Law, my theory is the better one.

That being said, I can't help but lol @ this here:

It's pretty silly to think they knew it, and never mentioned it, not even once, or even Hinted at it. Not a zip.

If only because your entire argument for Sauron beating Snape hinges upon Sauron possessing powers that he's never ever shown in the movies nor been stated to have. I thought hearsay and theory crafting was what you enjoyed? 313

sweets, I just don't see it.

I know you don't, sugerbooger, that's why I wear the pants in the family. 131

Weakness as in makes me reach for a paper bag? I would not disagree =3

The bible isn't a novel =p Besides, I'm not that into that kind of Fiction awesome

YOUR MOM IS A NOVEL.

While I admit watching your list of reasoning crumble to nothingness has been amusing, I would not go so far to say as I love it vin

Well..

Sauron had control over the orcs and other forces under his command...on a magical level.

So he did have magic. He also had his super eye thingie...that was also magic.

So we have a massive, but diluted, form of mind control coming from the ghostly version of Sauron...in addition to what appears to be remote viewing.

And I still don't buy that it is logical that destroying the ring would net the "good guys" a win.

There's actually no logical reason to conclude that the good guys would win if they destroyed the ring. What's missing? Oh...the fact that Sauron exerted a form of mind control over his massive forces. So, yeah...destroying the win would net the good guys a win.

Your post confused me. I feel like you contradicted yourself, there.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Your post confused me. I feel like you contradicted yourself, there.

I didn't. I asked the question that had been covered from a "logical" perspective...from not my end.

However, the "supernatural" is not logical and because of his supernatural control over his armies, we don't have a logical explanation for his control over his armies: it was magic.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Well, the difference between our thought processes on this is that I don't think the majority of the characters are morons. I don't think Aragorn would be stupid enough to think that he, with only 300 guys, could storm Mordor, slaughter Sauron's entire army, and throw the ring into Mount Doom. I think both he and Gandalf are smart enough to realize that humanity doesn't have the manpower to fight Saurons army and destroy it, ergo their only chance for survival is to toss the ring into the fire.

I really have to question what makes you think that all the sacrifices people made in the trilogy, in so far as to allow to Frodo to destroy the ring, were done out of the belief that destroying the ring would destroy only Sauron. If they believed that that they could deal with Sauron's army, and destroying him and only him was the only outcome of destroying the ring, then why destroy the ring at all? Sauron was just an eye. He didn't have any magical powers, he couldn't even move. He was stuck on a tower looking at people. If the humans could handle Sauron's army then all they would have had to do was hide the ring or keep it in their strongholds and destroy his army.

Or, there's my theory, which is that the wiser individuals such as Gandalf set this huge plan into motion to distract Sauron's gaze long enough for Frodo to destroy the ring, because he knew that Sauron's army would eventually overwhelm the free peoples, and that destroying the ring was the only way to defeat Mordor once and for all. Going by Occam's Razor, and Blaxican's Law, my theory is the better one.

That being said, I can't help but lol @ this here:

If only because your entire argument for Sauron beating Snape hinges upon Sauron possessing powers that he's never ever shown in the movies nor been stated to have. I thought hearsay and theory crafting was what you enjoyed? 313

I know you don't, sugerbooger, that's why I wear the pants in the family. 131

Whaaaaaat? I respect your desire to not disappoint me by comparing your face to mine, but really, there's no need to hide your face in a bag. It's more than acceptable.

YOUR MOM IS A NOVEL.

Uh-huh... Did you actually watch that movie at all?

It's actually talked about in dialogue, that they are going to die doing what they are doing. But the very purpose of it, is to give Frodo the chance to get to Mount Doom.

Aragorn: "Draw out Sauron's armies. Empty his lands. Then we gather our full strength and march on the Black Gate."
Éomer: "We cannot achieve victory through strength of arms."
Aragorn: "Not for ourselves, but we can give Frodo his chance if we keep Sauron's Eye fixed upon us. Keep him blind to all else that moves."
Legolas: "A diversion."
Gimli: "Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?"

Gimli: "I never thought I'd die side by side with an Elf"
Legolas: "What about side by side with a friend?"
Gimli: "Aye, I can do that"

They believe they will die, as a fact. The only point is to see that ring Destroyed.

And if you think

"His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, Gandalf: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame."

Is not a HUGE advantage in war, you're just a complete imbecile. No offense. Knowledge wins and loses wars. This is indisputable.

My argument hinges on the idea that Sauron is so powerful of an enemy that he is worth the lives of the fellowship. Who affect the war themselves.... how much?

Exactly =P

You wear pants? I thought you had long.... 'outgrown' pants =3

And yeah.... because that's what I meant..... 😉

Originally posted by dadudemon
And I still don't buy that it is logical that destroying the ring would net the "good guys" a win.

Cos the orcs and trolls are an evil cowardly rabble; without leaders to whip them into a fighting force, they're not much of a threat to the kingdoms of men. But yes, Sauron alone wasn't much of a threat to the realms, it's his ability to force the rabble into an army.

They went back to fighting amongst each other like the poor people in the ghettos do once their leaders were destroyed. Sauron, Sarumon and the Nazgul.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
And if you think

"His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, Gandalf: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame."

Is not a HUGE advantage in war, you're just a complete imbecile. No offense. Knowledge wins and loses wars. This is indisputable

Just to nitpick, but considering that 2 out of 3 major battles (Helms Deep and Minas Tirith, though you could probably count the one at the Black Gate too) were won by surprise flanking from the rear, I'd say he didn't really use this advantage that well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just to nitpick, but considering that 2 out of 3 major battles (Helms Deep and Minas Tirith, though you could probably count the one at the Black Gate too) were won by surprise flanking from the rear, I'd say he didn't really use this advantage that well.

This is true, there's also a scene in the Return of the King where the light from the eye is looking right at Frodo/Sam who fell behind some rocks so.... well it seems contradictory at times...

Maybe he just didn't think they were worth getting bothered over/ was more interested in something else.

'Oh look some hobbits going to Mount Doom. Well I know that the ring bearer is a hobbit and the only way to destroy the Ring is to chuck it in the volcano and, hey, where is that Ring now that you mention it? Waaaaait, maybe those hobbits wereOH GOD ARAGORNS DOING SOMETHING HIS HAIRS SO DREAMY!'

He seemed like a glorified lighthouse in that scene.

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Uh-huh... Did you actually watch that movie at all?

Which one? There's three movies, dork.

It's actually talked about in dialogue, that they are going to die doing what they are doing. But the very purpose of it, is to give Frodo the chance to get to Mount Doom.

They believe they will die, as a fact. The only point is to see that ring Destroyed.

And the reason they put such a huge importance on Frodo destroying the ring was because they knew that if Sauron went his armies would go with him. Permanently.

If you agreed with me from the get go, why not just say so? "Hey Blax, you're absolutely right and amazing in bed." See, it's not that hard.

And if you think

"His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, Gandalf: a great Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame."

Is not a HUGE advantage in war, you're just a complete imbecile. No offense. Knowledge wins and loses wars. This is indisputable.

My argument hinges on the idea that Sauron is so powerful of an enemy that he is worth the lives of the fellowship. Who affect the war themselves.... how much?

Exactly =P

You wear pants? I thought you had long.... 'outgrown' pants =3

Don't make fun of me. The diapers are just a precaution.

And yeah.... because that's what I meant..... 😉

Originally posted by Robtard
Cos the orcs and trolls are an evil cowardly rabble; without leaders to whip them into a fighting force, they're not much of a threat to the kingdoms of men. But yes, Sauron alone wasn't much of a threat to the realms, it's his ability to force the rabble into an army.

They went back to fighting amongst each other like the poor people in the ghettos do once their leaders were destroyed. Sauron, Sarumon and the Nazgul.

Close, but quite directly, Sauron exerted a form of mind control over the weaker minds.

Was it stated anywhere that the orcs functioned specifically under some kind of mass mind control that Sauron possessed?

Not that I actually disagree with you, just curious.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Was it stated anywhere that the orcs functioned specifically under some kind of mass mind control that Sauron possessed?

Not that I actually disagree with you, just curious.

It's hard for me to separate the books from the movies because the movies did so well in their adaptation.

But I remember Gandalf saying something about them breaking up when Sauron falls.

Anyone up for watching the extended cut of Return of the King? awesome

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Shut up, Quan.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's why going based off of feats alone is never the entire picture of debating.

The fact is that's all he did. Yes, he had super-strength and I'm sure he could do a lot of neat tricks with the ring, but in the end he wasn't that powerful. The other posters saying he was dangerous because of his armies are right.

Originally posted by Psychotron
The fact is that's all he did. Yes, he had super-strength and I'm sure he could do a lot of neat tricks with the ring, but in the end he wasn't that powerful. The other posters saying he was dangerous because of his armies are right.

His involvement on the battlefield involved sending multiple flying with his mace, lumbering around, and getting his finger chopped off.

So I guess that as long as Snape stays out of range of that mace, he'll win for sure with his laundry list of magical spells.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
His involvement on the battlefield involved sending multiple flying with his mace, lumbering around, and getting his finger chopped off.

So I guess that as long as Snape stays out of range of that mace, he'll win for sure with his laundry list of magical spells.