That was part of the problem that RJ brought up constantly: he would ask me to just side with him with just a simple post from me because no one would take him seriously unless he had "legit" backup.
At times, I would side with him just to lend a bit of credit to his side in discussions. Other times, I would not: he made more than enough good points.
When a wizard is half-apparting they are actually tangible and not merely smoke. This is evident in Deathly Hallows part 2 when Snape busts through a window despite the fact that he appears to be smoke and when Voldemort is half-apparting with Harrry they are crashing into stuff and their physical forms can be seen when it shifts to their perspective.
Tangible was bad word choice on my part. I simply meant their body is still there just covered in smoke as evident in this very bad quality clip:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes. I do see experienced, evil, dark wizards doing all that in the heat of battle. I do see them casually (yet loudly) casting those spells and watching their effects unfold. I do not think they are so mentally unstable and emotionally weak as to run, cower, or pull a Fallout-style "flee" where they ignore everything else in the world except their deaths.
They won't be spending time trying to produce a "bubble" when hundreds of arrows are coming at them per second, wraiths on dragons are screwing their ears with bloodcurdling shrieks, and cavalry and Orcs are rushing at them. They'll be trying to protect themselves at any cost. Many of them may Apparate, and therefore cause a major scattering of the wizard/witch numbers.
They won't be fleeing Fallout-style, but it's absolutely absurd to think they will stand "casually casting those spells and watching their effects unfold."
, but I fail to see how it is a problem. I've heard quite a few people talk about how whenever someone in HP (films and books) uses a spell that requires an item or object to move, they never speak or give an indication of the direction or speed, but the object still follows the order perfectly. I can't cite specific examples ATM, but they exist. The closest explanation I've heard is that they utter the directions non-verbally in their head.Either way, I don't see the shape of the canyon being a hindrance in any way.
Ehh, that's a vague counter. The "bubble" would extend over the entire Deeping Coomb, based on its natural formative tendencies in DH2.
1.) Glad we agree.2.) So wait, Faramir and his riders weren't affected enough by the Nazgul shrieks to cover their ears, fall off their horses, or scream in pain... but the darkest Dark Wizard in all of history will be?
I just watched that scene again to verify, and actually, my own faith in the Nazgul's incapacitating abilities has just been shattered. The Nazgul are contiguously screeching throughout the scene, and not a single Man or horse is seen being affected by it. Huh... shows what I know...
Again, the point I was making was that it wouldn't have much effect on those on the same side of the Nazgul.
No...they were clearly affected. They were terrified and barely had any control of their horses; hell, the horses probably knew Minas Tirith was safe and were bolting towards there regardless of their riders' status.
Well without the shield, the shield charm in general, the ability to apparate, and the ability to quickly and easily freeze/immobilize anything in the air. Essentially take away the wizard's abilities and yeah, their numbers will drop.
Without the "bubble," the wizards/witches will be in severe danger.
They would have to use it a lot. How many arrows do you think a quiver can hold? As for the horses--even without the shield, uh "bubble", I'll call it, there's any myriad of spells they can use to stop them in their tracks. Protego minor will stop them, if not en masse, then enough at a time. Fiendfyre (by Voldemort or one of his higher ups) would be a magnificent way to incinerate the entire cavalry and Uruk formation. Same with the trees, but Incendio will be enough for them. Pick one. My favourite would be Fiendfyre, just because of how destructive and cool it is.
Fiendfyre takes Voldemort a dozen seconds to fully cast. Plus, we see it as the only spell Voldemort being able to during its interval. Furthermore, because Fiendfyre demands such concentration by its user to maintain control, it's very likely Voldemort cannot perform other spells while commanding Fiendfyre. Considering all the other threats here (including the arrow-fall), Voldemort wouldn't leave himself exposed with Fiendfyre.
And Fiendfyre can traverse every passage, I'm sure.
And the extent of a controlled Fiendfyre (this is key; Quanchi and I debated his heavily back in the Battlezone regarding controlled vs. uncontrolled Fiendfyre) we see on-screen is Voldemort producing a single aflame serpent.
So am I. As archers go. But as a soldiers who can penetrate the defenses of powerful magical beings... not so much.Pop up? They don't need to. Voldy and his Death Eaters can just take to the skies with their smoke forms and keep raining down a barrage of destruction and death without touching the ground again. Easy win.
The smoke forms are visible. Archers can wait for the moment the form momentarily stops and the individual emerges to start blasting arrows. Or a Fell Beast can feast on one in mid-air.
100. 10. Voldemort alone. Doesn't matter, the rest of the goons/creatures are just for show. So long as the more... competent wizards--the Death Eaters, are present, they need only take to the skies in smokarition and level the entire canyon or fill it with Fiendyre. This would all be over be very quickly
Ehh...no matter how powerful the individual Death Eater is with his/her repertoire of spells, I just cannot fathom this obliteration occurring in this battle's mechanics.
The rest of us see a Death Eater total victory.
KV, teh 1-Man Army!
Honestly, I enjoy this discussion/debate. We can keep continuing this, or we can just Agree to Disagree and retire this thread onto the shelves of the MVF.
Originally posted by ares834
Tangible was bad word choice on my part. I simply meant their body is still there just covered in smoke as evident in this very bad quality clip:
There is also the part where those smokey puffs pass right through each other indicating that there are multiple phases in their smoke forms.
Partially solid...where just the legs are smoked up (we see that) and total smokes (I call it the holey smokes form...yes, it's spelled that way for a reason).
Keep in mind that Voldy's or Harry's head would have splattered against that crap they ran through, at times.
Then there's also the time a death eater was in full smoke form and he busted through some bricks: that would have splattered him if he were in any physical body form.
Originally posted by Korto VosYou know what? I'll give you this one. The Death Eaters will look at the onslaught of arrows and apparate out of the way. They Fiendfyre the entire valley and incinerate everything in it. They'll Immobulus the Nazgul on their way.
They won't be spending time trying to produce a "bubble" when hundreds of arrows are coming at them per second, wraiths on dragons are screwing their ears with bloodcurdling shrieks, and cavalry and Orcs are rushing at them. They'll be trying to protect themselves at any cost. Many of them may Apparate, and therefore cause a major scattering of the wizard/witch numbers.They won't be fleeing Fallout-style, but it's absolutely absurd to think they will stand "casually casting those spells and watching their effects unfold."
Originally posted by Korto VosI'm sorry, I can't play the Semantic Game to the same extent that some of you can. I also hate using the No Limits Fallacy, or any variation of it. "We only see a couple wizards form the shield around a certain location, in a certain shape, to a certain strength--ergo, that's all that can ever be done." Taken straight from Star Wars vs. Star Trek, 'the Borg can assimilate X amount of energy, therefore they can absorb any amount, because their limit wasn't shown.'
Ehh, that's a vague counter. The "bubble" would extend over the entire Deeping Coomb, based on its natural formative tendencies in DH2.
Same principle here; the shield was never deployed by Death Eaters, or in a different location, around a different shape, therefore it can't be used anywhere else, by anyone else.
Sorry, don't buy it.
Originally posted by Korto VosNo, actually, that's not true. Faramir and the surviving Osgiliath garrison could hear the screeches of the Nazgul--right around the time Faramir shouted "Nazgul!!" No covering their ears, no cowering in terror, nothing of the sort except acknowledgement of this dreaded enemies' presence. And no, they were not set to flight due to the Nazgul either; before the Nazgul screech is heard and their presence shouted out, Faramir tells his man to order the men to break formation and ride for Minas Tirith. Then the Nazgul arrived. They were set to flight by the overwhelming Orcs.
Again, the point I was making was that it wouldn't have much effect on those on the same side of the Nazgul.No...they were clearly affected. They were terrified and barely had any control of their horses; hell, the horses probably knew Minas Tirith was safe and were bolting towards there regardless of their riders' status.
I'm unimpressed by their inability to strike petrifying terror in to the hearts of battle-weary and exhausted Men who were already running, never mind the greatest Dark Lord and his entire cadre of Death Eaters.
Originally posted by Korto VosUnless they apparate.
Without the "bubble," the wizards/witches will be in severe danger.
Originally posted by Korto VosPray tell where you acquired these "facts". All of them now, don't skimp on any.
Fiendfyre takes Voldemort a dozen seconds to fully cast. Plus, we see it as the only spell Voldemort being able to during its interval. Furthermore, because Fiendfyre demands such concentration by its user to maintain control, it's very likely Voldemort cannot perform other spells while commanding Fiendfyre. Considering all the other threats here (including the arrow-fall), Voldemort wouldn't leave himself exposed with Fiendfyre.
WAIT! Don't answer yet, wait until my next point below.
Originally posted by Korto Vos1.) Prove that was Fiendfyre (but don't really, it doesn't matter).
And the extent of a [B]controlled Fiendfyre (this is key; Quanchi and I debated his heavily back in the Battlezone regarding controlled vs. uncontrolled Fiendfyre) we see on-screen is Voldemort producing a single aflame serpent. [/B]
2.) Prove that was Voldemort's absolute limit (but don't really, it doesn't matter).
3.) Prove that he needs to control it (he won't actually be standing down there).
4.) Tell me where the 12 second thing came from.
5.) Prove to me he can't do it while apparating.
6.) Prove to me his followers can't either. Vincent "Retard" Crabbe learned it likely from the Carrows, so that's at least one who knows--a background villain. He's got how many more?
Originally posted by Korto VosWhy would the form momentarily stop? How can they still fire their bows when they and their bow have been reduced to ash? Why do you put so much faith in the archers defeating magical smoke clouds who spit Hell fire, telekinetic assaults, death beams and all around bi-winning?
The smoke forms are visible. Archers can wait for the moment the form momentarily stops and the individual emerges to start blasting arrows. Or a Fell Beast can feast on one in mid-air.
Also, Immobulus for the Nazgul and their Beasts. Again.
Originally posted by Korto VosOkay, don't fathom "obliteration". Fathom "immobilization". Cuz screw the rest. Forget Fiendfyre, Avada Kedavra, Protego, apparation, all of it.
Ehh...no matter how powerful the individual Death Eater is with his/her repertoire of spells, I just cannot fathom this obliteration occurring in this battle's mechanics.
Voldemort and his Death Eaters don't need to move. They need only Immobulus. A pulsating, faster-than-an-arrow wave of purple magic that immobilizes every Uruk, horse, Beast, Huorn, and yes, even the mythical arrows. They'll fire off such a collection of Freezing Charms as to make little 12-year old Hermione proud.
Originally posted by Korto Vos...
KV, teh 1-Man Army!Honestly, I enjoy this discussion/debate. We can keep continuing this, or we can just Agree to Disagree and retire this thread onto the shelves of the MVF.
Immobulus!
I'd make that my catchphrase if I didn't already have one. And only losers have more than one.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know what? I'll give you this one. The Death Eaters will look at the onslaught of arrows and apparate out of the way. They Fiendfyre the entire valley and incinerate everything in it. They'll Immobulus the Nazgul on their way.
Why not simply immobulus the arrows?
Frankly:
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1.22. End thread.