HP Doomsday vs SBP

Originally posted by Cogito
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/SBPDrained.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/SBPDrained2.jpg

States very plainly in these scans that SBP needed the armor at night because he was so drained from being held prisoner for a year in a red sun. While he's absolutely weaker at night than during the day, he is nearly completely drained without the use of his armor in this specific instance in time. This is not a normal nighttime power level for him sans armor.

States very plainly in this scan that SBP was nearly whole again due to his armor. So the heroes beat him down from when he was nearly whole again. Just an fyi.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's honestly the way I've always seen it; though for a long time on this forum it's been the minority view.

Yeah, and Kal's got way more experience using his powers and in ways aside from just brute strength and lethal force. And in virtually every instance of a Prime/Kal showdown, Kal was trying to redeem Prime or reason with him instead of just kick his ass. Ultimately, I think Prime is a bit more powerful, but he wouldn't rage stomp Kal one on one in a real fight, imo.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, and Kal's got way more experience using his powers and in ways aside from just brute strength and lethal force. And in virtually every instance of a Prime/Kal showdown, Kal was trying to redeem Prime or reason with him instead of just kick his ass. Ultimately, I think Prime is a bit more powerful, but he wouldn't rage stomp Kal one on one in a real fight, imo.

I was always of the opinion that an actual fight between them was a toss up, if both of them are bringing their a-game.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/10/25/1539595/primvs3.jpg

States very plainly in this scan that SBP was nearly whole again due to his armor. So the heroes beat him down from when he was nearly whole again. Just an fyi.

This is true. My point was merely that he wasn't 100%. Furthermore, between when he said that and when he got beat down he did a substantial amount of fighting and was exposed to red solar radiation (albeit with the armor on). We don't know exactly how that affected him.

It's clear from the portrayal that he was drained right before the sun came up and then rejuvenated after, so he wasn't 100%. As I said in my first post in this thread, HP DD might have a decent shot at winning if he could push the fight into the night and face a weakened SBP.

I do apologize, though, for perhaps insinuating more weakness than may have been the case.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
At the same time, Red Star's attack was totally hurting Prime in Sinestro Corps War:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/10/25/1539595/primvs7.jpg

... while Prime no-sold Red Star's attack in Teen Titans.

Inconsistancies in both cases but the difference is the laso turned the tide and proved to be Primes downfall. To Red Star's credit, Prime did admit he had power. Don't hear a compliment from him too often.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So Kon-El doing it three times and Bart Allen doing it three times deserves no consideration?

As stated earlier, Kon-El is the exception. I'll give Bart credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Phantom Zone Zod shot hv right through Superman in For Tomorrow. Hell, kid Chris Kent shot hv right through Zod during Last Son.

Don't know the circumstances behind those cases but I don't wanna say Kryptonians show weaknesses toward their own powersets. Seems more believable for Prime to be able to do so. His ko'ed Earth 2 Supes/Wondergirl, sniped Zariel, sliced Gls in half, hurt Guardians, etc.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, Bart Allen shoulda just beat the crap out of him straight-up instead of bothering with time-travel. vin

You know, I really don't know why they potray him being fearful of the Flashes. Especially after his reaction/reflex speed has been shown to be on par with 3 simultaneously. I just don't get it. confused1

Originally posted by Cogito

Without posting scans of the fight, Sodam Yat punched SBP once, hit him with one GL blast of some sort, and heat visioned him once before he got his ass beat and impaled. There was not so much as a grunt of pain.

Then Ion fights some more, gets a few good hits on SBP. That is, until SBP beats him so bad he "feels the incessant blows and the bones splintering and cracking beneath his feat" and Ion asks himself if this is where he's going to die.

O rly? Lets start at the beginning.

Anti-Monitor's mere touch scars a Guardian
"Their Guardian (Anti-Monitor) is dead!" Anti-Monitor disagrees
SBP immediately kills Anti-Monitor by busting through him

Ok, so what do we have here. A touch of antimatter can harm and kill a Guardian, yet it does absolutely nothing to SBP when he flies straight through it.

Canon fodder?
I see not only two lesser GLs, but also Kilowog, Alan Scott, Superman, Powergirl....
and Guardians

Say what you will, but Kyle without Ion is a legit high herald.

No, I'm not saying fighting at night is PIS. I'm saying he's defeat by plot forces - the Speed Force, Guardian suicide, imminent reboot, and the like.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/SBPDrained.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/CogitoXP/SBPDrained2.jpg

States very plainly in these scans that SBP needed the armor at night because he was so drained from being held prisoner for a year in a red sun. While he's absolutely weaker at night than during the day, he is nearly completely drained without the use of his armor in this specific instance in time. This is not a normal nighttime power level for him sans armor.

Even without armor, though, his HV cuts through Superman with ease

And let's look at who fights SBP and beats him pre-sunrise.

We have, among others: Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Miss Martian, Alan Scott, Zauriel, Starman...Serious heavy hitters all of them. And this was immediately following his fight with Superman, Supergirl, and Power Girl.

And of course that was after his initial welcoming party

I'd keep going with this, and maybe I'll follow up with more, but I'm out of time now.

the sodam yat fight? you basically see him giving prime trouble and making him bleed UNTIL that plot device kicked in and prime got the upper hand due to the plot device , Lol i find it ironic how you always clame if prime loses its due to plot device how ever in this fight prime won due to a plot device 🙂

SBP showed some good resistance to exploding forces as he showed to magic... how does it change the fact it counters your argument that prime owned anti monitor and that prime never does impressive in any fight ?

kyle without ION is not a high herald i think he is low- mid herald but thats an opinion thing, how ever for me ION kyle was the ordinary kyle as he just recieved his powers and didnt really know how to use them properly, and of course the plot device kicks in which didnt allow the fight to end properly... i think the writer wanted to say something by letting prime win due to a plot device

Lol so now ever force that defeated prime is suddenly a plot force? its like having superman fray his ass with the heat vision and then go and say "superman won because of the heat vision plot device" thats just rediculous, the speed force is something the flashes were able to create due to there power so that power defeated prime whats wrong with that? if thor owns somebody with a tornado its a plot device? get real, and SBP had his power suit almost in every one of those fights and he still gothis ass handed to him specially by the teen titans 😉

it was stated that his power was almost fully restored and it was stated at the beginning of the arc, in the middle of that fight most chances his powers already were restored to normal levels

ok so his heat vision cuts superman with easy and the teen titans recent showing shows he cant even hurt a low herald with his heat vision so its 1 feat vs 1 feat whyshould we go by yours then?

heavy hitters? all i see is couple of heralds that it , and each of those heralds got a good lick on prime just like martian manhunter did, what about supergirl and superman owning him with there heat vision and make him cry for mommy? what about that? what about nobodies beating him down before the sun rose?

how about the flash family beating him down making him bleed and run away? 3 times!!!!!

and why wont you adress my point of conner giving him always a hard fight and hurting him?

i see that everytime it gets to prime people always make excuses like prime getting owned in the night its due to him being weaker but he got his power suit on so its full power prime, but when prime beats ION due to a plot device thats cool 😮‍💨

and the recent teen titans fight is very valid but people choose just to ignore it like it didnt happen even with the fact that conner alone always gave prime serious trouble and that during all his fights he got licked by bunch of heralds all around so stop with this imaginary skyfather prime because he is just superman level

Originally posted by h1a8
Any being that can move planets around like toys, can resist universal destroying blasts, can shatter dimensions with punches is FAR BEYOND
Black Adam or any herald level being. This ridiculousness has just got to stop.

I see the term context has little meaning to you when you post...

Originally posted by h1a8
Any being that can move planets around like toys, can resist universal destroying blasts, can shatter dimensions with punches is FAR BEYOND
Black Adam or any herald level being.

On another note, I'm unconvinced that Prime is much more powerful than H/P Doomsday (if at all.) Doomsday nearly killed Darkseid with something like 4 strikes (and that's back when Darky was written at some of his most powerful levels to date), he no-sold the OE and AF, he trounced an amped Superman multiple times, he owned Waverider, he utterly shit stomped the collective team-up of Kyle, Wally, J'onn, Dianna, Orion, and Plastic Man. Etc. etc.

In physical confrontations Prime is an absolute beast, no denying that... But so is H/P Doomsday. That makes this battle ridiculously hard to gauge.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree, actually. I think Prime is capable of beating any herald out there.

On another note, I'm unconvinced that Prime is much more powerful than H/P Doomsday (if at all.) Doomsday nearly killed Darkseid with something like 4 strikes (and that's back when Darky was written at some of his most powerful levels to date), he no-sold the OE and AF, he trounced an amped Superman multiple times, he owned Waverider, he utterly shit stomped the collective team-up of Kyle, Wally, J'onn, Dianna, Orion, and Plastic Man. Etc. etc.

In physical confrontations Prime is an absolute beast, no denying that... But so is H/P Doomsday. That makes this battle ridiculously hard to gauge.

ha! you took like.....13 lines to say what i said with one line and a thumbs up. i am efficient. nwoot

Originally posted by Sundipped
Inconsistancies in both cases but the difference is the laso turned the tide and proved to be Primes downfall. To Red Star's credit, Prime did admit he had power. Don't hear a compliment from him too often.

Originally posted by Sundipped
As stated earlier, Kon-El is the exception. I'll give Bart credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Don't know the circumstances behind those cases but I don't wanna say Kryptonians show weaknesses toward their own powersets. Seems more believable for Prime to be able to do so. His ko'ed Earth 2 Supes/Wondergirl, sniped Zariel, sliced Gls in half, hurt Guardians, etc.

Originally posted by Sundipped
You know, I really don't know why they potray him being fearful of the Flashes. Especially after his reaction/reflex speed has been shown to be on par with 3 simultaneously. I just don't get it. confused1

Originally posted by red_turtle
the sodam yat fight? you basically see him giving prime trouble and making him bleed UNTIL that plot device kicked in and prime got the upper hand due to the plot device , Lol i find it ironic how you always clame if prime loses its due to plot device how ever in this fight prime won due to a plot device 🙂

SBP showed some good resistance to exploding forces as he showed to magic... how does it change the fact it counters your argument that prime owned anti monitor and that prime never does impressive in any fight ?

kyle without ION is not a high herald i think he is low- mid herald but thats an opinion thing, how ever for me ION kyle was the ordinary kyle as he just recieved his powers and didnt really know how to use them properly, and of course the plot device kicks in which didnt allow the fight to end properly... i think the writer wanted to say something by letting prime win due to a plot device

Lol so now ever force that defeated prime is suddenly a plot force? its like having superman fray his ass with the heat vision and then go and say "superman won because of the heat vision plot device" thats just rediculous, the speed force is something the flashes were able to create due to there power so that power defeated prime whats wrong with that? if thor owns somebody with a tornado its a plot device? get real, and SBP had his power suit almost in every one of those fights and he still gothis ass handed to him specially by the teen titans 😉

it was stated that his power was almost fully restored and it was stated at the beginning of the arc, in the middle of that fight most chances his powers already were restored to normal levels

ok so his heat vision cuts superman with easy and the teen titans recent showing shows he cant even hurt a low herald with his heat vision so its 1 feat vs 1 feat whyshould we go by yours then?

heavy hitters? all i see is couple of heralds that it , and each of those heralds got a good lick on prime just like martian manhunter did, what about supergirl and superman owning him with there heat vision and make him cry for mommy? what about that? what about nobodies beating him down before the sun rose?

how about the flash family beating him down making him bleed and run away? 3 times!!!!!

and why wont you adress my point of conner giving him always a hard fight and hurting him?

i see that everytime it gets to prime people always make excuses like prime getting owned in the night its due to him being weaker but he got his power suit on so its full power prime, but when prime beats ION due to a plot device thats cool 😮‍💨

and the recent teen titans fight is very valid but people choose just to ignore it like it didnt happen even with the fact that conner alone always gave prime serious trouble and that during all his fights he got licked by bunch of heralds all around so stop with this imaginary skyfather prime because he is just superman level

I mean honestly, do we only accept a Darkseid who gets Batkicked and falls down stairs? Do we only look at Squirrel Girl when she got owned by a baby? A Wolverine that got kicked by a deer?

PS: typing all this on a phone sucks

Originally posted by Cogito
Look, every character with more than one appearance has low feats. If you want to focus only on that, and ignore his long established history of super-team busting, GL Corps pissing their pants, Guardians and Flashes sacrificing their lives to oust him history then you're few people are ever going to take you seriously.

I mean honestly, do we only accept a Darkseid who gets Batkicked and falls down stairs? Do we only look at Squirrel Girl when she got owned by a baby? A Wolverine that got kicked by a deer?

PS: typing all this on a phone sucks

the characters you mentioned got much more higher feats to prove those one are PIS, with SBP thats not the case because all his one on one fights actually prove my side of the story and shows us that his team wrecking feats are just canon fodder law (and even that didnt help him much because he still gotabused by the flash team, teentitans,superman+supergirl,black lanterns, no names low heralds act act)

so the only things all those you got is him giving the GLs a fight? Lol you get my point now? 😉

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't see him no-sell the one weakness he still has either. Teen Titans basically had to take him down straight-up.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Prime wrecked Red Star both times. I know the TT's had to team up to beat him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't see any reason to act like Kon-El didn't do what he did... three times over. Given another opportunity, he'd probably do it again.

That's why I said Kon-El was an exception. There's no doubt in my mind that it most likely will happen again no matter who's writing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There are no circumstances. Phantom Zone Zod pierced Superman's shoulder with hv towards the beginning of their fight. When Zod was attacking Earth, lil Chris Kent pierced his hand with hv. No context necessary, same with Prime doing it to Superman. Powergirl threatened to neuter Prime with hv an instant before and I believe that she could. Piercing hv doesn't impress me.

You are aware of Primes incredible damage soak/invulnerability right. He laughed off a combined Guardian assault. The same kind of assault in which 1 beam was incinerating SC heralds.

PG is not piercing Prime with mere hv.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because 3 of them BFR'ed him and defeated him in the future off-panel so obviously he can't keep up with them. And Bart Allen beat him up twice thereafter solo. Clearly, Prime's not on their level of speed. Which is why he's scared of them.

If you ask me, Johns went overboard with Prime being susceptible to Bart (later on). I can cope with Bart (w/speed force amp) punking Prime but TLO3W's incident was a bit too much.

In a scan I showed earlier he displayed combat speed on par with 3 Flashes + Jay himself stated here that he's too strong he was helpless.

😐 Doesn't make much sense to me.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Prime wrecked Red Star both times. I know the TT's had to team up to beat him.

That's why I said Kon-El was an exception. There's no doubt in my mind that it most likely will happen again no matter who's writing.

Maybe because he can. And Prime isn't as unbelievably more powerful as you think. Or Kon-El isn't as unbelievably weaker as you think. Kon-El is a teambuster.

Originally posted by Sundipped
You are aware of Primes incredible damage soak/invulnerability right. He laughed off a combined Guardian assault. The same kind of assault in which 1 beam was incinerating SC heralds.

PG is not piercing Prime with mere hv.

Apparently the story and Superman disagree. Otherwise Superman wouldn't have chastized her for threatening to cross a line.

Originally posted by Sundipped
If you ask me, Johns went overboard with Prime being susceptible to Bart (later on). I can cope with Bart (w/speed force amp) punking Prime but TLO3W's incident was a bit too much.

In a scan I showed earlier he displayed combat speed on par with 3 Flashes + Jay himself stated here that he's too strong he was helpless.

😐 Doesn't make much sense to me.

Countering Flashes in one panel and then spending the rest of your encounters getting pummeled, outright defeated, or fleeing speedsters doesn't prove that Prime's speed was on par with 3 Flashes. It proves that his countering them was likely a result of him surprising them with his relative speed at first.

And using an alternate Jay Garrick who could be as slow or slower than the real Jay Garrick means very little. I think you're overgeneralizing and aggrandizing Prime's levels which end up crashing hard against the various "harsh" realities that we're discussing. None of this should be surprising or quizical.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just that while you think Prime got shafted in a major way in his Teen Titans fight with the lasso leading to his defeat, he also benefitted in a major way in the fight by inexplicably no-selling a red sun energy attack.

RS's attacks noticably had more of an affect the first time but he still admitted RS had power after no-selling them the second time around. This is not really that big a deal considering he still owned him with little difficulty twice.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Maybe because he can. And Prime isn't as unbelievably more powerful as you think. Or Kon-El isn't as unbelievably weaker as you think. Kon-El is a teambuster.

Didn't say Kon-El was a weakling but no question Prime is superior.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm aware the Guardians didn't do anything but incinerate no-name Lanterns (not the SC Heralds) and got those same attacks no-sold by Cyborg Superman. Superman Prime actually yelped and then got outwrestled by one of the jobber Guardians.

He yelped initially then laughed it off. Prime didn't get outwrestled. The Guardian had already initiated the self destruct process emitting that bright green light which broke Primes focus.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Apparently the story and Superman disagree. Otherwise Superman wouldn't have chastized her for threatening to cross a line.

So just because Supes said don't do it means it would have been done? You know better than that ODG. Prime pierced Supes twice. We know for a fact he can do it. Easily. HV may pierce the average Kryptonian but Prime has proven he is above average.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Bart being amped with the Speed Force to fight Prime is a myth. Bart exhausted the Speed Force he absorbed to just travel backwards in time. It was exhausted to such a point that he fainted and didn't wake up until after Conner fought and died. He had, at best, residual Speed Force powers that faded completely. This should be more obvious now since Bart actually has blitzed Prime four times solo. Once right before the Speedforce BFR, once when he returned in Infinite Crisis (the instance we're speaking of), once when he returned in Legion of 3 Worlds and, yet again, once more in Teen Titans. Bart doesn't need an imaginary Speedforce amp to battle Prime; we know this because he definitely didn't have an amp the three other times he did it solo. While Bart hasn't demonstrated the ability to overcome him on his own, he can take him on.

Countering Flashes in one panel and then spending the rest of your encounters getting pummeled, outright defeated, or fleeing speedsters doesn't prove that Prime's speed was on par with 3 Flashes. It proves that his countering them was likely a result of him surprising them with his relative speed at first.

And using an alternate Jay Garrick who could be as slow or slower than the real Jay Garrick means very little. I think you're overgeneralizing and aggrandizing Prime's levels which end up crashing hard against the various "harsh" realities that we're discussing. None of this should be surprising or quizical.

Bart did say he passed out in Tokyo when he came back so I'll concede to him not having an amp.

Prime did suprise the Flashes with his speed and most likely it did catch them off guard but what it also shows is his ability to fight back and connect with punches of his own while/after punches are being thrown at him. He has the ability to fight back (even against 3) but as you stated, in the other instances he just succumbs to only Bart. I would like to see a strictly Prime vs. Bart fight 1 on 1 without Prime being so emo to see how it would turn out.

Not overgeneralizing Prime. His track record (save Flashes) speaks for itself.

Originally posted by Sundipped
RS's attacks noticably had more of an affect the first time but he still admitted RS had power after no-selling them the second time around. This is not really that big a deal considering he still owned him with little difficulty twice.

He yelped initially then laughed it off. Prime didn't get outwrestled. The Guardian had already initiated the self destruct process emitting that bright green light which broke Primes focus.

Ok. Prime failed to wrestle out of the jobber Guardians' grip.

Originally posted by Sundipped
So just because Supes said don't do it means it would have been done? You know better than that ODG. Prime pierced Supes twice. We know for a fact he can do it. Easily. HV may pierce the average Kryptonian but Prime has proven he is above average.

Not overgeneralizing Prime. His track record (save Flashes) speaks for itself.

Kon-El and Flashes' performances aren't exceptional to me. I see them as consistent.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see the term context has little meaning to you when you post...

I see no secret context in moving planets around like toys, surviving universal destroying blasts, and shattering dimension with punches based off pure strength.