Originally posted by inimalist
man, why wasn't I listening to your opinions on the economy earlier!a triangular shaped selling operation where profits are constantly moved to the pinnacle, you say? How could I lose?
You can make fun of him all you want, but those points he made are correct. Not everyone can succeed at those types of business plans and you really have to work hard. It is not for everyone (including myself) but it does work for those who are motivated and have a decent business sense. I've seen people go from the bottom to retirement in less than 5 years...and they were just average in business intelligence. They were just motivated and never gave up.
Yes, I'm saying that a properly motivated person can succeed almost every time. It just takes monstrous amounts of motivation and never giving up.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Ignore Darth Jello. His opinions usually range from dumb to wrong, and more often than not are both with a touch of liberal hysterics thrown into the mix.
Sometimes. Other times, he brings up very valid points. Sometimes, my opinions are based off of incorrect information so they are every bit as dumb as any other opinion. So I can't say Jello is "all bad": he has good points sometimes.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You can make fun of him all you want, but those points he made are correct. Not everyone can succeed at those types of business plans and you really have to work hard.
If you really think there's a pyramid scheme where everybody wins then you don't understand how they work at all.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you really think there's a pyramid scheme where everybody wins then you don't understand how they work at all.
"Duuuuhh derpy derpy dooo! It's a pyramid scheme! dur" Sure, if you have no idea what the business model is and have no idea what a pyramid scheme is.
If you think a legal business that has been around for more than a few decades is a pyramid scheme (a pyramid scheme is a form of fraud and is illegal) then you have no idea what I'm talking about, at all (you don't). They were accused, multiple times of pyramid scheming. Cleared of all charges, each time, in the US ( Do not know about other countries). You make almost all of your money off of you actually selling merchandise.
I do remember them settling a case and paid hefty sums of money but it did not result in an actual admission of guilt or legal enforcement of a guilty find: they just settled. IIRC, that was due to a group being naughty and using illegal means of making money. Amway has policies which make it wrong to get recruiting bonuses after 2 or 3 generations. Meaning, if your recruit recruits someone...that's the last you'll see a signing bonus. That was created, a looong time ago, by Amway, to prevent the pyramid scheming (which the the individuals starting doing on their own...because they are IBOs). You sign an agreement that states you will not do that and if you do, you have to pay a fine or some other penalty, to the organization. Sometimes, it results in your loss of business agreement and you can no longer sell their products It is not only illegal but it is against their policy to allow "infinite" recruiting bonuses which results in an actual pyramid scheme. You have to make almost all your money off of actual sales, not signing bonuses.
I am not part of Amway, btw. I just did an investigation and paper on them for one of my ethics classes (business ethics). 🙂 Basically, here's how they work:
1. Amway products. They are the "goods". It is a name of many different products. Compare them to Procter and Gamble or any other large producer of a diversified product "maker". They have quite a diverse offering of products....very similar to Proctor and Gamble. 😄
2. IBOs: they purchase those products and sell them to people. They are also called distributors. They are independent of Amway but are beholden to Amway's contract: they can only distribute those products in ways that agree with Amway's policies (no under the table pyramid schemes...no lying about competitors (that happened with Procter and Gamble, btw)).
3. You can recruit and get bonuses for signing someone up...but the bonus for that is limited to a couple of generations by Amway policy. My current employer also gives me a bonus for recruiting someone...as has all of my previous employers. So does that make everyone a pyramid schemer? No. That's not the definition of pyramid scheming.
4. The IBOs/distributors make their money off of selling merchandise to individuals. You can also purchase goods from Amway, for yourself (many people do this: they pay the licensing fee to distribute just to get the wholesale price on Amway's products. How is that any different than any other person wishing to get wholesale pricing? It pays for itself and then some, depending on the cost of the licensing fee.)
5. The more customers you have purchasing products, the more money you make. GASPITY! That MUST be a pyramid scheme. Wait...not it isn't. That's just how a business is run. Everyone freaks out because they were told as children by their ignorant parents that it is a pyramid scheme. In reality, that's how any other business is run. Lemme guess, Wal-Mart is a pyramid scheme because they give recruitment bonuses, purchase wholesale licensing and distribute products? No, they aren't. 😐 They are an example of a mega-retailer with thousands of wholesale licensing contracts. They are Amway on steroids and then some. Yes, some IBOs that sell Amway products have their own retail shops. Just google search and you can find a few brick and mortar sellers in your area.
6. There is a limit on how far up Amway will allow their products to be marked. There was a couple of times Amway cracked down on some of their distributors for marking up prices too high. Yes, just like any other wholesaler would if their products were being marked up too high (tarnishing their name).
Now that you know how their business model works, are you still going to ignorantly call it a pyramid scheme? If so, then you are calling any type of wholesale to retail agreement a pyramid scheme. That's obviously quite stupid if you hold that opinion.
Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
maybe youre just going to the wrong ones? Thats cool though i like mine relatively empty any way
Well, I asked the owners and they saw a considerable drop of customers. Economy and what have you.
But, I agree, I prefer mine allllll to myself, so I don't mind. You only live once.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You can make fun of him all you want, but those points he made are correct. Not everyone can succeed at those types of business plans and you really have to work hard. It is not for everyone (including myself) but it does work for those who are motivated and have a decent business sense. I've seen people go from the bottom to retirement in less than 5 years...and they were just average in business intelligence. They were just motivated and never gave up.Yes, I'm saying that a properly motivated person can succeed almost every time. It just takes monstrous amounts of motivation and never giving up.
I didn't, nor would I, call Amway a pyramid scheme, just to throw it out there.
But thats like saying because Bernie Madoff wasn't running an exact duplicate of the ponzi scheme there is no problem with it.
But hey, for any of these to work, some people have to make money.
Also, I was commenting more on the fact AsbestosFlanagan claimed those as why businesses fail by-and-large.
Originally posted by inimalist
I didn't, nor would I, call Amway a pyramid scheme, just to throw it out there.
My bad. But I do not think you hold this position...as we shall see...
Originally posted by inimalist
But thats like saying because Bernie Madoff wasn't running an exact duplicate of the ponzi scheme there is no problem with it.
Well...a couple of things.
1. Calling his scheme a Ponzi Scheme (not what you're doing) is not entirely correct. Unlike a real Ponzi Scheme, he had a real business at its front and he did not promise outrageous returns. Sure, his returns were too high during a volatile market, but they were consistent and actually were less than the 75 year market average of 12%: 10.x%. It was due to being consistent during really low slumps that he stuck out. Had the economic collapse been less than what it was, his business may have stayed above water. Though, when he died, the sons would have had to lower the return rate and possibly even outed his father. I think the sons and the father agreed to turn the father in...rather than the sons making some sort of benevolent agreement to turn him in. It's just too stupid and naive for anyone to think that he was the only one that knew it was a flavor of a ponzi scheme.
2. The comparison you're making is non-sequitur: Amway is not running a pyramid scheme and, legally, cannot run one. They are the same as any other wholesaler-contract agreement with minor differences. For example, Advocare runs a similar setup to Amway. The best gains I made in my life (physical fitness) were when I used advocare products. However, they were expensive as all get out. It's because they were directly sold from IBOs...just like Amway.
3. The comparison to a Ponzi Scheme and Madoff is not entirely "do-able" because he did not run a classic Ponzi scheme. On top of that, the comparison to a Ponzi Scheme and a pyramid scheme is not logical either because they are two different types of fraud. Lastly, saying Amway runs a pyramid scheme when the vast majority of all money made is from actually selling tangible products, shows that even making a claim that they are a pyramid scheme is just plain wrong.
Originally posted by inimalist
But hey, for any of these to work, some people have to make money.
Correct: the extreme majority of funds come from selling Amway products. If you try to make most of your money by just selling licenses to distribute, you'll make shit money.
Be my guest: try it. 🙂
You'll quickly run out of people you can refer.
Case-in-point: I get a $3000 bonus for referring people to come work where I work. That sounds like a lot...but how many people do you think I know are motivated to work where I work and to stick around for at least 3 months so I can get my bonus? That's much more than the signing bonuses I observed with Amway distributors: they had like $300-$500 signing bonuses and can only go 2 or 3 people deep. In other words, they cap the referral bonuses because Amway doesn't make money off of referrals: they make money off of selling their actual products. Imagine that: a wholesaler wanting to sell their wholesale goods. dur
😆
Originally posted by inimalist
Also, I was commenting more on the fact AsbestosFlanagan claimed those as why businesses fail by-and-large.
I do not understand this point in the context of the conversation because it does not fit. I won't mince words...so I'll just be up front:
Basically, I'm calling bullshit on this point of yours and saying that you were directly criticizing the scheme as some sort of pyramid scheme and that position is supported by your comments in this very post with the Ponzi comparison.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Calling his scheme a Ponzi Scheme (not what you're doing) is not entirely correct.
Car doesn't look like a Model-T but it's still a car. Putting a new spin on a scam doesn't make it stop being a scam. I mean really, you could argue that no one who isn't named Ponzi can reallu create a Ponzi scheme with exactly the same validity.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Car doesn't look like a Model-T but it's still a car. Putting a new spin on a scam doesn't make it stop being a scam. I mean really, you could argue that no one who isn't named Ponzi can reallu create a Ponzi scheme with exactly the same validity.
You missed the point entirely, but that is not a surprise: you're good at that because you love your strawman arguments.
Originally posted by dadudemon
"Duuuuhh derpy derpy dooo! It's a pyramid scheme! dur" Sure, if you have no idea what the business model is and have no idea what a pyramid scheme is.If you think a legal business that has been around for more than a few decades is a pyramid scheme (a pyramid scheme is a form of fraud and is illegal) then you have no idea what I'm talking about, at all (you don't). They were accused, multiple times of pyramid scheming. Cleared of all charges, each time, in the US ( Do not know about other countries). You make almost all of your money off of you actually selling merchandise.
I do remember them settling a case and paid hefty sums of money but it did not result in an actual admission of guilt or legal enforcement of a guilty find: they just settled. IIRC, that was due to a group being naughty and using illegal means of making money. Amway has policies which make it wrong to get recruiting bonuses after 2 or 3 generations. Meaning, if your recruit recruits someone...that's the last you'll see a signing bonus. That was created, a looong time ago, by Amway, to prevent the pyramid scheming (which the the individuals starting doing on their own...because they are IBOs). You sign an agreement that states you will not do that and if you do, you have to pay a fine or some other penalty, to the organization. Sometimes, it results in your loss of business agreement and you can no longer sell their products It is not only illegal but it is against their policy to allow "infinite" recruiting bonuses which results in an actual pyramid scheme. You have to make almost all your money off of actual sales, not signing bonuses.
I am not part of Amway, btw. I just did an investigation and paper on them for one of my ethics classes (business ethics). 🙂 Basically, here's how they work:
1. Amway products. They are the "goods". It is a name of many different products. Compare them to Procter and Gamble or any other large producer of a diversified product "maker". They have quite a diverse offering of products....very similar to Proctor and Gamble. 😄
2. IBOs: they purchase those products and sell them to people. They are also called distributors. They are independent of Amway but are beholden to Amway's contract: they can only distribute those products in ways that agree with Amway's policies (no under the table pyramid schemes...no lying about competitors (that happened with Procter and Gamble, btw)).
3. You can recruit and get bonuses for signing someone up...but the bonus for that is limited to a couple of generations by Amway policy. My current employer also gives me a bonus for recruiting someone...as has all of my previous employers. So does that make everyone a pyramid schemer? No. That's not the definition of pyramid scheming.
4. The IBOs/distributors make their money off of selling merchandise to individuals. You can also purchase goods from Amway, for yourself (many people do this: they pay the licensing fee to distribute just to get the wholesale price on Amway's products. How is that any different than any other person wishing to get wholesale pricing? It pays for itself and then some, depending on the cost of the licensing fee.)
5. The more customers you have purchasing products, the more money you make. GASPITY! That MUST be a pyramid scheme. Wait...not it isn't. That's just how a business is run. Everyone freaks out because they were told as children by their ignorant parents that it is a pyramid scheme. In reality, that's how any other business is run. Lemme guess, Wal-Mart is a pyramid scheme because they give recruitment bonuses, purchase wholesale licensing and distribute products? No, they aren't. 😐 They are an example of a mega-retailer with thousands of wholesale licensing contracts. They are Amway on steroids and then some. Yes, some IBOs that sell Amway products have their own retail shops. Just google search and you can find a few brick and mortar sellers in your area.
6. There is a limit on how far up Amway will allow their products to be marked. There was a couple of times Amway cracked down on some of their distributors for marking up prices too high. Yes, just like any other wholesaler would if their products were being marked up too high (tarnishing their name).
Now that you know how their business model works, are you still going to ignorantly call it a pyramid scheme? If so, then you are calling any type of wholesale to retail agreement a pyramid scheme. That's obviously quite stupid if you hold that opinion.
QFT.👆
This post pretty much nailed it.
It takes hard work and determination to succeed in ANY business.
But the residual income you earn afterwards makes it all worth it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct: the extreme majority of funds come from selling Amway products. If you try to make most of your money by just selling licenses to distribute, you'll make shit money.Be my guest: try it. 🙂
You'll quickly run out of people you can refer. [/B]
Asbestosflaygon: I respect your choice to be in Amway. It is not for me, but I hope you do go Diamond 🙂
dadudemon, the above quote shows your absolute ignorance towards the Amway business model. Any REAL money made in Amway is through selling 'licenses' with THESE people buying selling Amway products, and by extension getting more people to become distributors themselves...the more people you have in your downline (buying/selling Amway products) the more money you make.
You think you can retire to some tropical paradise simply by selling laundry soap to all your family/friends???
Originally posted by theICONiac
dadudemon, the above quote shows your absolute ignorance towards the Amway business model. Any REAL money made in Amway is through selling 'licenses' with THESE people buying selling Amway products, and by extension getting more people to become distributors themselves...the more people you have in your downline (buying/selling Amway products) the more money you make.
The above quote shows your real ignorance when it comes to the Amway business model. Since I've already explained how it works and clearly indicated that there are caps on the amount of people you can recruit, your post is just trolling and I have suspected you of being a troll for a while, now.
Originally posted by theICONiac
You think you can retire to some tropical paradise simply by selling laundry soap to all your family/friends???
You think you can retire to some tropical paradise by simply selling licenses only 2 recruits deep? It's like you didn't even read my post and still ended up completely ignorant of how you actually make money. I guess you didn't realize that Amway sells over a billion dollars of merchandise, annually. Lemme guess: Amway's actual owners sell all of that with their personal IBOs, right? dur
Originally posted by dadudemon
The above quote shows your real ignorance when it comes to the Amway business model. Since I've already explained how it works and clearly indicated that there are caps on the amount of people you can recruit, your post is just trolling and I have suspected you of being a troll for a while, now.You think you can retire to some tropical paradise by simply selling licenses only 2 recruits deep? It's like you didn't even read my post and still ended up completely ignorant of how you actually make money. I guess you didn't realize that Amway sells over a billion dollars of merchandise, annually. Lemme guess: Amway's actual owners sell all of that with their personal IBOs, right? dur
2 recruits deep??? Please see:
http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCenterDocuments/Visitor/ops-amw-gde-v-en--BusinessReferenceGuide.pdf
Page A-2. Maybe Amway is trolling you too??? 💃
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Thanks, but no thanks.I've already achieved Double Diamond status and 'retired' from Amway.
You were serious??
Impressive!
Any particular reason not to go further? I would have thought at such a high level going forward (triple diamond/crown etc) would have been simpler?