Hiding who you were at birth Right or Wrong?
If a person does not want to sleep with a person of the same sex, or have any type of relationship outside of a platonic one with them. Is it right for that person that has had a sex change or is hiding who they are not to tell the person right away?
If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape?
Comments.
Re: Hiding who you were at birth Right or Wrong?
Originally posted by Stoic
If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape?
It would be an absurd stretch, like the woman who accused a man of rape because he didn't tell her he was Jewish.
Lol at it being rape.
A choice made in ignorance of the complete facts is still a free choice.
We don't call cases where a woman believed the man was wearing a condom but was really having unprotected sex "rape" (at least I don't and I don't know anyone who would), just a case of one party misleading the other. Though I think in the case of a stealth transsexual its a lot less malicious than a phantom condom.
I think as a rule people should be honest about who they are and what condition(s) they have that might complicate things in the aftermath. If a transsexual is afraid that their partner might have a meltdown upon discovery then they really shouldn't be with those kinds of people in the first place. Stick with people who are comfortable with it.
Originally posted by StoicIs it right not to tell right away...I don't know if "right" is the word I'd use. Maybe "prudent." But it depends on the tellee.
If a person does not want to sleep with a person of the same sex, or have any type of relationship outside of a platonic one with them. Is it right for that person that has had a sex change or is hiding who they are not to tell the person right away?
If not and the heterosexual person unsuspectingly sleeps with someone that has hidden who they are, or has been medically altered sexually, would that not be rape?I'd say no, at least not legally. Maybe ethically. And maybe there could be some other charge that could be brought against the non-teller.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So if a girl gets pregnant and regrets it then she didn't want to have that particular sex, therefore it was rape?
That's taking it to a different place though isn't it? The pregnant woman mentioned knew what was happening the entire time, whereas if there was someone dressed in drag, sexually altered or any other unknown variable not mentioned, but mentioned after the fact is deceptive. No?
I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.
I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?
so, because some people are uncomfortable about human sexuality it is the responsibility of any transgendered person to have to reveal intensely personal information to every potential sexual partner, though it risks abuse, both personal and physical, and ostracism, or else they have committed rape? like a criminal violation of another person's body?
even if you might argue it is the polite thing to do (which is still absurd), this is the most backward approach to the issue that I think there could be. why not propose a "transgender" registry, to go alongside the sex offender one, so that these poor, unsuspecting people who are having consensual sex with strangers can be protected from what they are attracted to...
Originally posted by Stoic
That's taking it to a different place though isn't it?
Possibly, too charged of a an example as well. I'll pick a different one.
But lets pick a more concrete alternate example. I tell a woman I'm an fireman and she has sex with me because of that (I'm not really an fireman). Is that rape? How about if I promise to marry her? If I'm secretly a Nazi and she doesn't want to have sex with Nazis?
People lie or selectively reveal things about themselves in order to have sex all the time.
Originally posted by Stoic
I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?
No she wasn't raped because there's nothing about it that seems like rape to me. I'd define rape as sex without consent (exuding consent obtained under duress).
You can say it was wrong for being deceptive (though seriously who tells everyone they meet intensely personal details about their life?) but that brings you into all sorts of other areas. AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female.
Originally posted by Stoic
That's taking it to a different place though isn't it? The pregnant woman mentioned knew what was happening the entire time, whereas if there was someone dressed in drag, sexually altered or any other unknown variable not mentioned, but mentioned after the fact is deceptive. No?I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.
I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?
Where does that end though? Dyed hair? Contact Lenses? Favorite Band?
I agree with the "you shouldn't do it" though, but it's not rape.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female.
afaik, it is the difference between gender and sex
sex refers literally to your genetic composition (though there is considerable evidence that this isn't a binary M/F thing we once thought it was) and is essentially immutable to change. A person with an XY chromosome cannot change to an XX.
gender is a construct that individuals and cultures create, whereby many people feel that the gender they associate with personally does not match the physical body they have.
A person's experience of gender is far more important in their own identity, therefore people going through sex change surgery, regardless of their sex, would be the gender they appear as after surgery. Its a little more complex once you start getting into the more modern gender classifications, where there are 7 or 8 different categories, but really I'm just agreeing with you. A person who is a female-to-male transgendered individual is a male for all intents and purposes, especially in how they see themselves. It would be untrue for them to say they were female, in terms of gender (the most important consideration), though it might not reflect sex.
I hardly think that, even for people who don't undergo the surgery and merely crossdress or whatever, people are being dishonest when they describe their gender as what they actually feel it is.
It would be like getting angry with me because I introduce myself as a single human being rather than the processes that underlie my behaviour at a neurological level.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Possibly, too charged of a an example as well. I'll pick a different one.But lets pick a more concrete alternate example. I tell a woman I'm an fireman and she has sex with me because of that (I'm not really an fireman). Is that rape? How about if I promise to marry her? If I'm secretly a Nazi and she doesn't want to have sex with Nazis?
People lie or selectively reveal things about themselves in order to have sex all the time.
No she wasn't raped because there's nothing about it that seems like rape to me. I'd define rape as sex without consent (exuding consent obtained under duress).
You can say it was wrong for being deceptive (though seriously who tells everyone they meet intensely personal details about their life?) but that brings you into all sorts of other areas. AFAIK trans people consider themselves to be of one sex or another and want to move past it once they've gotten surgery. Its arguably not deceptive to call themselves male or female.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Where does that end though? Dyed hair? Contact Lenses? Favorite Band?I agree with the "you shouldn't do it" though, but it's not rape.
Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?
Originally posted by Stoic
Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?
HIV causes physical, demonstrable harm...
also, its not lying to tell people you are who you feel you are...