Hiding who you were at birth Right or Wrong?

Originally posted by Stoic
Imagine if you may, someone having HIV, knowing that they have it, and sleeping with someone before telling them that they had the disease. This may seem to be an extreme example that I am pulling up, but what of people that have certain religious beliefs on the subject of sleeping or being in a same sex relationship? What of their choices? Should they be or go unheard because someone decides that they won't tell for whatever fear they have? Deception is deception, no matter how you wrap it up. Right or wrong?

That would still not be rape. But intentionally inflicting someone with HIV is illegal, and they would get prosecuted for that.

Sleeping with a transvestite on the other hand has no actual harm, beyond what you attribute to it yourself. So it is much more similar to finding out someone didn't like a movie you love, or that someone was an atheist and didn't tell you, than having unprotected sex when you have HIV.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That would still not be rape. But intentionally inflicting someone with HIV is illegal, and they would get prosecuted for that.

Sleeping with a transvestite on the other hand has no actual harm, beyond what you attribute to it yourself. So it is much more similar to finding out someone didn't like a movie you love, or that someone was an atheist and didn't tell you, than having unprotected sex when you have HIV.

But if you never intended on sleeping with a transgendered person, and did not know until after the fact, is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV, and does not tell you. It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie. Just because one has mortal implications as opposed to the other does not lesson it. I think that it should also be considered a crime. Open minded or not, everyone needs to be able to decide whether or not they want to sleep with so and so, even if it's at the expense of being politically correct.

Nah Mean?

Originally posted by Stoic
But if you never intended on sleeping with a transgendered person, and did not know until after the fact, is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV, and does not tell you. It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie. Just because one has mortal implications as opposed to the other does not lesson it. I think that it should also be considered a crime. Open minded or not, everyone needs to be able to decide whether or not they want to sleep with so and so, even if it's at the expense of being politically correct.

Nah Mean?

It's not the same though. HIV kills you, actually. Sleeping with a transgendered person does nothing to you. You have not been harmed. So it is in no way similar to sleeping with someone that transmits HIV to you without your knowledge.

If you have to disclose that you are transgender, why do you not have to disclose everything else about you? What if you never wanted to sleep with a blonde, but the girl you slept with is a blonde but didn't tell you and had brunette dyed hair? By your logic, that too, would have to be a crime. Do you want that to be a crime?

Originally posted by Stoic
politically correct.

/red flag

Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

A heterosexual person, that never had any intention of being with a homosexual person has the right to be told before having a relationship with that person because that is their choice, and to withhold this information is, or could be construed to be as bad as a woman taking a walk in the park, and is sexually assaulted by a mugger.

This could scar that person for life. Who are you or I to say? People no matter what their gender preference is has the right to know things of this nature. I asked a question earlier, and received no answer. What if the person that was not told this information went against their beliefs? Should they not be respected as well? Should their beliefs, or wants be ignored? Deception like I said is deception, whether it be from being deceived into unknowingly sleeping with a person with HIV, or a person that is transgendered.

If a White, Latino, Asian, Indian or whatever ethnicity has a problem sleeping with a Black person, and the Black person knows this, but does not look remotely Black it is still that persons right to know, so that they can make the decision if they want, or not want to pursue being with that Black person.

you convinced me

transgendered people might as well have aids and we should treat them like sex offenders

take that PC strawman!

Originally posted by Stoic
Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

It's not your choice if she hides it from you.

Originally posted by Stoic
A heterosexual person, that never had any intention of being with a homosexual person has the right to be told before having a relationship with that person because that is their choice, and to withhold this information is, or could be construed to be as bad as a woman taking a walk in the park, and is sexually assaulted by a mugger.

No, not if we apply "logic" and "reason".

Originally posted by Stoic
This could scar that person for life. Who are you or I to say? People no matter what their gender preference is has the right to know things of this nature. I asked a question earlier, and received no answer. What if the person that was not told this information went against their beliefs? Should they not be respected as well? Should their beliefs, or wants be ignored? Deception like I said is deception, whether it be from being deceived into unknowingly sleeping with a person with HIV, or a person that is transgendered.

It's a pity for them, and I agree people should deceive others that way. Should they be punished by law? No, most definitely not.

Originally posted by Stoic
If a White, Latino, Asian, Indian or whatever ethnicity has a problem sleeping with a Black person, and the Black person knows this, but does not look remotely Black it is still that persons right to know, so that they can make the decision if they want, or not want to pursue being with that Black person.

So you would throw that "black" person in jail cause they pretended to be "latino"? You don't find that ridiculous?

Originally posted by Stoic
It's still a deception, and no matter how you dress a lie up, it's still a lie.

I did ask you to be more clear about things. In your opening post, you didn't ask "Is the person lying?", you asked "is it rape?"

Which by any rational or legal definition it is not, and you saying it can be construed as equivalent to being sexually assaulted by a mugger is ludicrous.

I'll assume you meant the discussion to be more broad than that, because if it is not I'll close it now as it has a simple answer. However, I find little basis for good argument here. If your discussion is "Is it wrong to withhold facts about yourself from someone you sleep with?" then maybe you have a discussion, though I doubt it will go very far as legally requiring full disclosure is ridiculous.

Your weird focus on transexualism as being the unrevealed factor is worrying, though, and if I feel this is just an excuse to attack transexuals I will close.

Originally posted by Stoic
Actually I simply wouldn't date the girl if I had a dislike of blonds vs brunettes, and that's my choice. The key here, is simple, it's "my" choice.

So you're literally arguing that if a woman dies her hair she's a rapist?

Originally posted by inimalist
you convinced me

transgendered people might as well have aids and we should treat them like sex offenders

take that PC strawman!

And then you became the person that tried to make what I said or wrote into something that it was not. That of course is your choice. You don't see it as a crime, while someone else may. You even seem to be attempting to stand on some moral high ground, while arguing the immoral.

Do you or don't you think that it is wrong, or right to withhold information of this nature? Either it's yes or it's no.

Originally posted by Stoic
And then you became the person that tried to make what I said or wrote into something that it was not.

The problem is that you never manage to say what you mean. Is English your first language?

Also you literally said:
"is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV"

Originally posted by Stoic
I saw a lady on the Jerry Springer Show that was deceived into believing that the woman that had made love to her was a man, and to be honest, when I first saw this woman I really thought that it was a man.

I would say that the woman that was deceived, was raped. What's your take on it?

How the **** did she not notice it was a woman? I mean, you can only be so drunk. But noones that drunk.

Yes, I think you should tell someone this, in the benefit of honesty. But it is not a punishable crime by any means, in my opinion. And if you think you would get "scarred for life", toughen up. That's pathetic.

So...everyone (beside Stoic) is really on the side of "You should tell, but if you don't you shouldn't get punished", yeah?

What a lovely uncontroversial topic...

Originally posted by Stoic
Do you or don't you think that it is wrong, or right to withhold information of this nature? Either it's yes or it's no.

of the half dozen posts I have made in this thread, your attention fixated on one with the least amount of substance. While I might question the relevance of asking me something I have laid out pretty clearly in other posts, the simple answer is no, I don't think it is wrong to withhold this information, and in fact, I don't think a male-to-female transgendered individual is actually lying when they say they are female.

I find your position, which seems to tell people who they are rather than letting them express it for themselves, naive and fairly dismissive of the actual diversity we see in human sexual and gender psychology. Further, it seems to be based wholly around defending people who make rash decisions and have to live with the consequences, rather than using any logic or evidence to put forth an actual position. For instance, why stop simply at sex? why not have people be required to provide a note from their doctor detailing all of their recent sexual activity? what about political affiliations? If these things are important to you, wouldn't it be more fair to say that it is your responsibility to find them out before you have sex with someone rather than expecting them to come forward with incredibly personal information? Further, since it is you that has the problem, how are they to know what information they should tell you? should transgendered people just wear little signs when they go out to avoid any such mistakes?

Further, you seem to be fixating "deception" as the principle issue in the matter, including when you were trying to compare it to rape or HIV. In both the cases of rape or HIV infection, the lie or deception causes immediate bodily harm, hence why they are criminal, whereas sleeping with a transgendered individual causes, potentially, mental anguish due entirely to the poor choices made by the individual you are trying to call a victim.

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH A TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VET THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

Originally posted by inimalist
of the half dozen posts I have made in this thread, your attention fixated on one with the least amount of substance. While I might question the relevance of asking me something I have laid out pretty clearly in other posts, the simple answer is no, I don't think it is wrong to withhold this information, and in fact, I don't think a male-to-female transgendered individual is actually lying when they say they are female.

I find your position, which seems to tell people who they are rather than letting them express it for themselves, naive and fairly dismissive of the actual diversity we see in human sexual and gender psychology. Further, it seems to be based wholly around defending people who make rash decisions and have to live with the consequences, rather than using any logic or evidence to put forth an actual position. For instance, why stop simply at sex? why not have people be required to provide a note from their doctor detailing all of their recent sexual activity? what about political affiliations? If these things are important to you, wouldn't it be more fair to say that it is your responsibility to find them out before you have sex with someone rather than expecting them to come forward with incredibly personal information? Further, since it is you that has the problem, how are they to know what information they should tell you? should transgendered people just wear little signs when they go out to avoid any such mistakes?

Further, you seem to be fixating "deception" as the principle issue in the matter, including when you were trying to compare it to rape or HIV. In both the cases of rape or HIV infection, the lie or deception causes immediate bodily harm, hence why they are criminal, whereas sleeping with a transgendered individual causes, potentially, mental anguish [b]due entirely to the poor choices made by the individual you are trying to call a victim.

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH A TRANSGENDERED INDIVIDUAL IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO VET THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE. [/B]

YOU WROTE

IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So...everyone (beside Stoic) is really on the side of "You should tell, but if you don't you shouldn't get punished", yeah?

What a lovely uncontroversial topic...

Going to jail may be a bit harsh, but depending on the person deceived, things could get ugly. You know this as well as I do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The problem is that you never manage to say what you mean. Is English your first language?

Also you literally said:
"is the same as sleeping with someone that has HIV"

Don't pick my words, read the post, and if you have a problem reading and understanding the English language, I will be willing to help you understand. Then again I believe that you could use an online dictionary, it's free. Just don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote to make yourself appear to be standing on some high moral plateau. Did you understand that, or should I explain it in a way that you can?

Brodock nailed it, imo. This wouldn't be rape.

Originally posted by Stoic
Don't pick my words, read the post, and if you have a problem reading and understanding the English language, I will be willing to help you understand. Then again I believe that you could use an online dictionary, it's free. Just don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote to make yourself appear to be standing on some high moral plateau. Did you understand that, or should I explain it in a way that you can?

So when you said that having sex with a transgendered person was the same as having sex with someone who has HIV you didn't mean that having sex with a transgendered person was the same as having sex with someone who has HIV?

That's not confusing at all.

Originally posted by Stoic
YOU WROTE
[b]
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying. [/B]

being transgendered is much different than being homosexual...

otherwise, sure, I'm terrible...

EDIT: just to clarify, you know a male-to-female transgendered person who has sex with men is not a homosexual, yes?

Originally posted by Stoic
YOU WROTE
[b]
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO (WHAT WORD IS THAT?) THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL PARTNERS YOU MIGHT HAVE.

If you believe everything that you wrote, that is up to you, I don't, and it's wrong to withhold information of this nature. You can type in all caps, to make yourself seem right or righteous if you like, but it still does not make it right. Homosexuality isn't in the closet phase any longer, which is not in question. If a person has gotten close enough to another person to become intimate, being honest shouldn't be as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, or trying. [/B]