Voldemort vs. Albus Dumbledore

Started by draxx_tOfU6 pages

Originally posted by quanchi112
Their wands wiere locked into a battle of wills which is different. They also had a connection due to their wands being of the same core.

You're ignoring the context behind every single event.

Voldemort wasn't intending on killing him with the crucio curse just letting him experience pain for a moment.

Voldemort's energy blast broke the Hogwarts enchantment by himself showing himself to be more powerful than the rest of the deatheaters.

There's a reason why the deatheaters followed him and no one would dare stand up against him. Fear.

Dumbledore let Snape kill him out of fear of facing the dark lord again.

the connection of their wands had nothing to do with the fact that Harry was able to counter the killing curse...

it doesn't change the fact that Harry would be dead if he was late in countering...

you make it sound like Dumbly's death was Voldepwn's doing, and you say I ignore context, lol...

let's revisit the circumstances regarding Dumbly's death shall we?...

Dumby, who is always a step ahead of Voldy, knew that Voldy was really a coward, being a coward he would one day ask Draco what he can't accomplish, and that is to kill him...

Dumbly tells Snape that he wants to save Draco and tells him to do the deed himself when the time comes, as he knew that Harry would pwn Voldepwn in the end anyway...

just as Albus predicted, Voldepwn orders Draco to kill Dumbly and threatens him that he will kill his family if he fails...

Draco realizes he is not a murderer and does not kill Dumbly despite Voldepwns threats...

goes to show that Dumbly is not scared of death...

Voldepwn, who is scared of Albus and death, had to divide his soul, making him virtually immortal, and in the end he still got pwned by Harry and his loyal death eaters who "feared" him, lol...

Originally posted by dadudemon
PERFECT! You got both portions of what I was talking about: that Voldemort is more powerful than Dumbles, overall, but that Dumbles knows about magic that Voldemort doesn't (he considers them mundane...the love things and others).

So, yes, book 5, not 4.

I have read all the books only once. 😄

I bow to your awesomeness. hug

Just took a bit of flipping through - and knowing that GoF is waaayyy to early for Dumbles to be saying these things to just-traumatized Harry. 😄

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Just took a bit of flipping through - and knowing that GoF is waaayyy to early for Dumbles to be saying these things to just-traumatized Harry. 😄

So when am I having your babies? 😐

Hmmmm, I dunno.

When are you planning on stalking me?

Okay, Beedle's out now.

The only hand-off of the Elder Wand that takes place in the actual story is when the first brother goes off to a tavern and brags that he's just got a wand that he made Death give him. He's murdered that night, and the next guy takes the wand.

In the afterword by Dumbledore, he insists the wand is real [JK Rowling has said over and over that if ever she is to give the readers unquestionably "true" material, she gives it either to Dumbledore or Hermione; Hermione would've found it out in the library, and Dumbledore just knows everything.] So confirmation that there does exist the three Deathly Hallows from Dumbledore himself [he speaks of being able to give away the Invisibility Cloak very easily, and of no one ever knowing where the Stone has gone [which of course, we now know differently.]

Here's a bit about the wand and what little history that Dumbles gives in the Tales :

pg 99

This leaves us with the wand, and here the obstinate believers in Beedle's hidden message have at least some historical evidence to back up their wild claims. For it is the case - whether because they liked to glorify themselves, or to intimidate possible attackers, or because they truly believed what they were saying, that wizards down the ages have claimed to possess a wand more powerful than the ordinary, even an "unbeatable wand." Some of these wizards have gone so far as to claim that their wand is made of elder, like the wand supposedly made by Death. Such wands have been given many names, among them the "Wand of Destiny" and the "Deathstick."....

.... The first well-documented mention of a wand made of elder that had particularly strong and dangerous powers was owned by Emeric, commonly called "The Evil," a short-lived but exceptionally aggressive wizard who terrorized the south of England in the early Middle Ages. He died as he had lived, in a ferocious duel with a wizard known as Egbert. What became of Egbert is unknown, although the life expectancy of medieval duelers was generally short. In the days before there was a Ministry of Magic to regulate the use of Dark Magic, dueling was usually fatal.
A full century later, another unpleasant character, this time named Godelot, advanced the study of Dark Magic by writing a collection of dangerous spells with the help of a wand he described in his notebook, "my moste wicked and subtle friend, with bodie of elder, who knowes ways of magick moste evile."
As can be seen, Godelot considers his wand to be a helpmeet, almost an instructor. Those who are knowledgeable about wandlore, s I am, will agree that wands do indeed absorb the expertise of those who use them, though this is an unpredictable and imperfect business; one must consider all kinds of additional factors, such as the relationship between the wand and the user, to understand how well it is likely to perform with any particular individual. Nevertheless, a hypothetical wand that had passed through the hands of many Dark wizards would likely be to have, at the very least, a marked affinity for the most dangerous kinds of magic."

And we know just a touch of how the Elder Wand passed from person to person, from The Deathly Hallows - the first owner in current that we hear about is the wandmaker of Durmstrang - whose name I've forgotten of course and I'm not getting up one more time to grab the last book of the fourth book. From him, Grindlewald masters the wand through theft, and from him, Dumbledore masters the wand with superior dueling. Next Draco takes the wand, or rather, takes the Spirit of the wand, masters it through disarming, and Harry takes the Spirit of the wand, and then the wand itself, mastering it through superior dueling.

Unfortunately, of course, Voldemort doesn't believe that the wand can be mastered except in the case of superior dueling to the death, which is why he makes all the mistakes he does in Deathly Hallows.

Knowledge is power. Clearly, Voldemort knows less than Dumbles. So.... who wins again?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Information is power.
Fixed.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
the connection of their wands had nothing to do with the fact that Harry was able to counter the killing curse...

it doesn't change the fact that Harry would be dead if he was late in countering...

That has everything to do with it. They both cast a spell at the same time and their wands were locked into a battle of wills.

you make it sound like Dumbly's death was Voldepwn's doing, and you say I ignore context, lol...
[/B]
Voldemort sent them forth to kill him. So it was a part of his doing. Dumbledore was going to give up his life anyways due to him being terminal because of the horcrux anyway( Go Voldie go).

let's revisit the circumstances regarding Dumbly's death shall we?...

Dumby, who is always a step ahead of Voldy, knew that Voldy was really a coward, being a coward he would one day ask Draco what he can't accomplish, and that is to kill him...

Dumbly tells Snape that he wants to save Draco and tells him to do the deed himself when the time comes, as he knew that Harry would pwn Voldepwn in the end anyway...

just as Albus predicted, Voldepwn orders Draco to kill Dumbly and threatens him that he will kill his family if he fails...[/B]

Dumbledore didn't think he was a coward he thought he was a genius who pushed the boundaries of magic further than anyone up to that point. Dumbledore knew he was going to die so he wanted Snape to kill him if Draco couldn't go through with it. That was his fail safe along with Voldemort to gain Snape's complete trust. Guess what Voldemort still killed Snape anyways. Good job Dumbledore.

Draco realizes he is not a murderer and does not kill Dumbly despite Voldepwns threats...

goes to show that Dumbly is not scared of death...

Voldepwn, who is scared of Albus and death, had to divide his soul, making him virtually immortal, and in the end he still got pwned by Harry and his loyal death eaters who "feared" him, lol... [/B]

Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again.

Voldemort wasn't scared of Albus he took him on and Albus looked scared of him while Voldemort was laughing having a grand old time.

Voldemort, 10/10. He isn't limited to 3 minutes and kills the old fool.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fixed.

Meh.... semantics.

quanchi, baby,

"Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again."

Um, just to CLUE YOU IN, Dumbledore is the FOUNDER of the Order of the Phoenix. As in, it's his idea. He is the president of the Order of the Phoenix. He found the headquarters, he wrote the manifesto, and he made up the rules.

Rules about which he is frightened? Why would Dumbledore MAKE himself make a SOCIETY which includes all of the things he is frightened of?
Because he wouldn't.

Just because you view the world through a Voldemort-sized lens doesn't mean you're going to convince the rest of us to.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Meh.... semantics.

quanchi, baby,

"Dumbledore isn't scared of death more than he is Voldemort. He'd rather face his end then go through the fear of the order of the phoenix again."

Um, just to CLUE YOU IN, Dumbledore is the FOUNDER of the Order of the Phoenix. As in, it's his idea. He is the president of the Order of the Phoenix. He found the headquarters, he wrote the manifesto, and he made up the rules.

Rules about which he is frightened? Why would Dumbledore MAKE himself make a SOCIETY which includes all of the things he is frightened of?
Because he wouldn't.

Just because you view the world through a Voldemort-sized lens doesn't mean you're going to convince the rest of us to.

I was referring to the movie order of the phoenix scene where he confronts Voldemort. I was implying he doesn't want to relive another battle with him.

Watch the scene again because it's obvious Dumbledore was scared and not in control of their fight.

So.. Dumble whiny baby can't bear to go on and fight another day?

Errrr.... yeah. That's not in his character. At. All. And you didn't change his character with your OP.

If you haven't noticed, Dumbledore never turns down a fight. And being scared doesn't mean he's a loser. Courage is not being able to handle anything on earth without crying, courage is that little voice that says, keep going.

Or some such nonsense.

Dumbledore is obviously not afraid to die, since he willingly did so.

Why would he be afraid of Voldemort?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Hmmmm, I dunno.

When are you planning on stalking me?

I just don't have it in me to stalk anyone. The "I have too much of a life" thing is going to get in the way... 🙁 I could at least pretend to stalk.

On topic: Dumbles just has too much of a willingness to die. He is well over 100 at the point of the story. It is not like he knows it is his time to die. So I do not think it mattered to Dumbles when he died: it was his time, anyway. 😄

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was referring to the movie order of the phoenix scene where he confronts Voldemort. I was implying he doesn't want to relive another battle with him.

Watch the scene again because it's obvious Dumbledore was scared and not in control of their fight.

lulz, a Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate against Dumbles...

it must really bug you to know that it is common knowledge in the wizarding community that Voldy fears Dumbledore...

it also makes me lol that despite Voldy dividing his soul into separate pieces, a bunch of teenagers still managed to track most of the horcrux and destroy them...

to try and gain immortality, only to lose it in such a lame and careless way, pathetic...

Originally posted by siriuswriter
So.. Dumble whiny baby can't bear to go on and fight another day?

Errrr.... yeah. That's not in his character. At. All. And you didn't change his character with your OP.

If you haven't noticed, Dumbledore never turns down a fight. And being scared doesn't mean he's a loser. Courage is not being able to handle anything on earth without crying, courage is that little voice that says, keep going.

Or some such nonsense.

Dumbledore gave into death. The guy gave into Voldemort's will meaning his death.

I didn't say being scared does mean he's a loser the fight proves Voldemort is flat out superior considering Dumbledore was fighting for survival despite having the most powerful wand in existence.

Voldemort>>>Dumbledore in the movie.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
lulz, a Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate against Dumbles...

it must really bug you to know that it is common knowledge in the wizarding community that Voldy fears Dumbledore...

it also makes me lol that despite Voldy dividing his soul into separate pieces, a bunch of teenagers still managed to track most of the horcrux and destroy them...

to try and gain immortality, only to lose it in such a lame and careless way, pathetic...

Dumbledore was trying to kill him just the same but ending up basically just fighting to live through the day.

Voldemort sure didn't look scared when he fought him just the opposite. Look at the look on Albus' face. The guy looks petrified as do the orders when they see Voldemort. The entire world fears Voldemort including Dumbledore that must drive you absolutely batsh-t insane.

The bad guy was going to lose just like in every major epic fantasy series. The funniest part is the context and the help Harry Potter has to survive against him is legendary.

Voldemort's impact, his deeds, his stamp on the Harry Potter universe >>>>Dumbledore's.

ahaha, Voldemort resorted to possessing Harry in the fight because he couldn't defeat Dumbledore...

A Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate at best, lol...

even Neville defied Voldy, haha...

Voldy has nothing to be ashamed of, fearing the one the wizarding world proclaims as the greatest wizard is quite understandable...

"the only one he's ever feared", awesome...

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dumbledore gave into death. The guy gave into Voldemort's will meaning his death.

I didn't say being scared does mean he's a loser the fight proves Voldemort is flat out superior considering Dumbledore was fighting for survival despite having the most powerful wand in existence.

Voldemort>>>Dumbledore in the movie.

I love it... "he gave into death." Because that's what you do when it's time for you to die. It's all your fault, man, you gave into it... that reminds me of something that Walter from The Big Lebowski would say, right after he declares that Dude deserves monetary compensation for that rug that really tied the room together.

Dumbles sacrificed himself. So that the Order and Harry could be ten steps ahead of Voldemort. Because Voldemort has the delusion that death, dead, and the dying are all weak.

Once Draco disarmed him, mastering the Elder Wand, he knew that Voldemort would never get it, that he might want the Wand, but he wouldn't understand that "just" not having a defense ready was, to the Wand, defeat. That's why he made the really dumb decision to kill off his most trusted companion... and that's how Harry became Master of Death.

If only Voldemort were a little less ignorant - he might have actually won his war.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
ahaha, Voldemort resorted to possessing Harry in the fight because he couldn't defeat Dumbledore...

A Voldy who is out for the kill can only manage a stalemate at best, lol...

even Neville defied Voldy, haha...

Voldy has nothing to be ashamed of, fearing the one the wizarding world proclaims as the greatest wizard is quite understandable...

"the only one he's ever feared", awesome...

He changed his tactics while Dumbledore was supposed to protect Harry instead of being helpless.

Dumbledore tried drowning him all the same and killing him with redirecting his Fiendfyre. Looks like that failed.

Neville got knocked out after Voldemort laughed at him.

Dumbledore feared Voldemort on screen. Dumbledore couldn't even prevent Voldemort taking possession of him.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
I love it... "he gave into death." Because that's what you do when it's time for you to die. It's all your fault, man, you gave into it... that reminds me of something that Walter from The Big Lebowski would say, right after he declares that Dude deserves monetary compensation for that rug that really tied the room together.

Dumbles sacrificed himself. So that the Order and Harry could be ten steps ahead of Voldemort. Because Voldemort has the delusion that death, dead, and the dying are all weak.

Once Draco disarmed him, mastering the Elder Wand, he knew that Voldemort would never get it, that he might want the Wand, but he wouldn't understand that "just" not having a defense ready was, to the Wand, defeat. That's why he made the really dumb decision to kill off his most trusted companion... and that's how Harry became Master of Death.

If only Voldemort were a little less ignorant - he might have actually won his war.

He was going to die but didn't have to when he did die.

Dumbledore gave into Voldemort's will. Dumbledore knew he couldn't defeat him. That speaks volumes about how formidable Voldemort actually is.

Harry did trick Voldemort but seeing as how Voldy wasn't present you can hardly blame him he's not all knowing.

The bad guy always loses in these kinds of films but Dumbledore realizing he has to forfeit his own life tells the story.

Dumbledore, obviously. Anyone that paid 1/2 attention to the films knows this. Another fail thread.

I like the scene before Dumbles comes in, Harry was outnumbered 2-1 against Voldy and Bellatrix...

Nobody ordered Bellatrix to leave, but she left when Dumbles came in, she left her master because she too was afraid of the greatest wizard...

I also like how Rowling portrayed Voldy as the big baddie, yet at the same time made it common knowledge to the wizarding world that he feared Dumbledore, awesome...