Mito Uzumaki vs Kisame Hoshigaki (w/the Samahada)

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note Aura didn't start the argument, I and psycho did 🙂

And I've still yet to hear any good argument for her not to have Kyuubi Chakra Mode, only the 'incredible coincidence' hypothesis.

I find it hard to believe that Hiruzen could be the strongest person in Konoha if his wife could do this.

Though frankly the Kyuubi mode is overrated as well. It's not even the equivelant of baseline Bee, and as we have very much seen, it's not the equivelant to all of the Kyuubi's power, nowhere near.

Yes, I see absolutely no basis for the idea the form is as powerful as Bee's various transformations. I very much doubt this form is even equal to the 4 tails cloak. It certainly doesn't have as good of feats as the 4 tails. Its definitely not as strong as the 6 tails, since he can't resist Shinra Tensei this time. So I think the comparison to Bee's various modifications is an erroneous one. Bee went through a similar form with the eight tails, and he has definitely abandoned it in favor of the wild-looking cloaks.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I try not to make assumptions based on a single nigh-throwaway line of dialogue that she can reproduce the exact same form of Naruto's and therefore gets all of his feats.

Never said that. It does mean she has the capabilities that come from the mode itself, though, something a couple people here seem to like to ignore.

You are making assumptions based on less than a single line on what her power should be. "A single line that says a direct known factor isn't enough. Let's base our power rating on zero lines instead," isn't going to fly.

Just because you don't find one line enough (one fairly definitive line which has had no alternate explanations raised) doesn't mean you should make assumptions based on zero lines.

I find it hard to believe that Hiruzen could be the strongest person in Konoha if his wife could do this.

You mean, Hashirama? He's still absurdly powerful himself. I don't have problem seeing him equal or stronger than someone in KCM.

King Kandy
Yes, I see absolutely no basis for the idea the form is as powerful as Bee's various transformations. I very much doubt this form is even equal to the 4 tails cloak.

Lemme think about my response to that...

We've seen how powerful KCM is, quite a bit stronger than the 4-tail cloaks (way above the non-total transformation version, no matter the number of tails, still more useful than the turn into kyuubi 4-tails version), and you two have presented zero evidence actually supporting a lower-powered form.

"Yea, I think it's probably less powerful, based on nothing," is not much of an argument ^^;

Its definitely not as strong as the 6 tails, since he can't resist Shinra Tensei this time.

Oh, what, and 6-tails total transformation mode isn't S+? Not to mention it's a lot more flexible, in that the user can still do jutsu other than biju ball and bashing stuff as well as getting a huge speed boost and not becoming a huge target.

If you're going to make an argument, try not to make one that doesn't still put KCM at S+.

---

Seriously people, if you're trying to argue for her at S plain? Your arguments here suuuuuuck. Try harder!

Originally posted by Q99
Never said that. It does mean she has the capabilities that come from the mode itself, though, something a couple people here seem to like to ignore.

You're reading "He can read emotion like Mito" to mean "He has that form that Mito has that can do all this other neat stuff but I'm only mentioning read emotion."

You could certainly argue she has use of the Kyuubi's power, obviously, but frankly, that doesn't mean she has the mode itself.

Hell, we've known for like 200 chapters that the Kyuubi could read emotions, when it noted the sinister nature of Sasuke's chakra reminds it of Madara.

You are making assumptions based on less than a single line on what her power should be. "A single line that says a direct known factor isn't enough. Let's base our power rating on zero lines instead," isn't going to fly.

Please do tell me what assumption I've made. Can we reason that the Kyuubi host is powerful? Sure. But we do not have enough information to make any coherent argument for or against her.

I didn't mention your rating system at all, and am not arguing her being dropped to S. I frankly couldn't give two shits where you put her on it, so please do drop the defensive attitude for your list.

Just because you don't find one line enough (one fairly definitive line which has had no alternate explanations raised) doesn't mean you should make assumptions based on zero lines.

You assume that the ability to read emotions definitely comes form the mode. That could be the case, but it's still speculation, not fact.

I could even admit it might be "fairly likely" that she has the mode, but not enough for me to give her the win over Kisame, not a chance.

You mean, Hashirama? He's still absurdly powerful himself. I don't have problem seeing him equal or stronger than someone in KCM.

Yes I meant Hashirama.

I'm not so certain about that. Though the full extent of Hashirama's abilities are admittedly unknown.

Also, Bee at base would still be more powerful than Mito, or at least on par.

Her having the full Kyuubi means nothing at all, since the mode doesn't seem to use the full extent of the Kyuubi's powers anyway.

NemeBro

You're reading "He can read emotion like Mito" to mean "He has that form that Mito has that can do all this other neat stuff but I'm only mentioning read emotion."

Yea, the nigh-unique power that comes directly from Kyuubi Chakra Mode.

I'm still waiting for any other vaguely plausible explanation for how she can have it without KCM that even approaches her having KCM in likeliness.

So far no-one here has given any.

You could certainly argue she has use of the Kyuubi's power, obviously, but frankly, that doesn't mean she has the mode itself.

Yet no-one else has the ability until they get to that level of mastery, the only other time it's known to exist is when someone gains that mode. That does imply things rather strongly.

I'm curious one other thing that it could mean besides having KCM. Because currently we're working on a very short list of possible explanations here.

Please do tell me what assumption I've made.

That she has a power that is known to come from a specific mode but not that mode.

I didn't mention your silly rating system at all. I frankly couldn't give two shits where you put her on it,

Oh, even aside from the ratings, I find the arguments against her from most corners pretty silly.

"Sure, she has such high mastery of kyuubi that she has one of the strongest and rarest powers coming from it, but that doesn't mean she has the only known way to get that power even though she has all the prerequisites of that power."

so please do drop the defensive attitude.

See, the thing is people come up and act sarcastic about it every week or so, even though the actual support for it doesn't contain much in the way of 'arguments'.

So I'm going to sarcastic the heck out of it if I don't get some solid arguments. Someone wants to drop it? Fine. Someone wants to bring up actual arguments? Also fine. Someone wants to just assume based on nothing and try and present opinion as trumping what evidence we do have? Ehh, I'm not going to take that seriously or pretend to do so, not with how much it's come up.

If you aren't in the "She's definitely weaker!... you'll just have to trust me on that, because I can't back it up but won't drop it," crowd, then I apologize for catching you in the crossfire, because I've gotten the impression you are.

Also, Bee at base would still be more powerful than Mito, or at least on par.

Not disagreeing, he does have some strong powers she should not, namely Biju Ball.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, the nigh-unique power that comes directly from Kyuubi Chakra Mode.

I'm still waiting for any other vaguely plausible explanation for how she can have it without KCM that even approaches her having KCM in likeliness.

So far no-one here has given any.

She has the power based on having a good deal of mastery over the Kyuubi (Who has demonstrated that power), but doesn't necessarily have the mode that gives Naruto said power.

Done.

I'm not even saying that is as possible as her having KCM, but I frankly find arguments concerning a character who to my recollection has done nothing at all noteworthy on-panel

Yet no-one else has the ability until they get to that level of mastery, the only other time it's known to exist is when someone gains that mode. That does imply things rather strongly.

I'm curious one other thing that it could mean besides having KCM. Because currently we're working on a very short list of possible explanations here.

Only it's a standard ability of the Kyuubi. Seriously, sensing emotions is a standard ability of the damn thing. Is it so hard to believe that Mito could access what is IMHO a fairly minor ability in terms of complexity of the beast without needing the entire mode?

Also, "no one else" has shown to be able to do it without the mode because our only definitive case subject is Naruto.

That she has a power that is known to come from a specific mode but not that mode.

Ah, but I did not make that assumption. I simply assume nothing, I speculate on what "could" be possible, but I am firmly under the stance that Mito warrants no discussion at all.

Oh, even aside from the ratings, I find the arguments against her from most corners pretty silly.

"Sure, she has such high mastery of kyuubi that she has one of the strongest and rarest powers coming from it, but that doesn't mean she has the only known way to get that power even though she has all the prerequisites of that power."

Something else just occurred to me.

Wasn't Minato the creator of the Seal and the Key (Him creating his own variation/expansion of a seal created by Mito's clan that originally was used to seal the Kyuubi) that led to Naruto unlocking the KCM? How could Mito have the mode when the jutsus that are required to create it didn't even exist back then? Unless I'm remembering wrong.

See, the thing is people come up and act sarcastic about it every week or so, even though the actual support for it doesn't contain much in the way of 'arguments'.

So I'm going to sarcastic the heck out of it if I don't get some solid arguments. Someone wants to drop it? Fine. Someone wants to bring up actual arguments? Also fine. Someone wants to just assume based on nothing and try and present opinion as trumping what evidence we do have? Ehh, I'm not going to take that seriously or pretend to do so, not with how much it's come up.

If you aren't in the "She's definitely weaker!... you'll just have to trust me on that, because I can't back it up but won't drop it," crowd, then I apologize for catching you in the crossfire, because I've gotten the impression you are.

I'm a genius and every argument I've ever made is flawless so I can't see your problem. estahuh

On a more serious note, looking back at some of my posts concerning this in the past, I can see why'd you consider my posts vaguely douchey, and for that I apologise.

That said, on the third point, that's sort of my point. "Definitely weaker"? Weaker than... What? Weaker than Naruto (I'd say probably)? Weaker than Kakashi (Hard to say but probably not)? Weaker than Konohamaru (This doesn't warrant discussion, the answer is obviously)? We don't know, we don't know the full extent of her abilities, her limitations, how she fights, etc. All we know is that as a host with large amounts of chakra, the Kyuubi contained in her, and good Sealing jutsu, she's probably pretty powerful. But I honestly don't think that Mito, who could for all intents and purposes not exist in the manga and no one would notice, really warrants any discussion, and probably shouldn't be on the Ratings list at all, if I were to be honest.

Not disagreeing, he does have some strong powers she should not, namely Biju Ball.

Well I'm working off the assumption that she's probably not as strong as current Naruto.

i want her, and kushina off the list, and for Q99 to kiss the ring

"rubber guy" has more feats.

NemeBro

Only it's a standard ability of the Kyuubi. Seriously, sensing emotions is a standard ability of the damn thing. Is it so hard to believe that Mito could access what is IMHO a fairly minor ability in terms of complexity of the beast without needing the entire mode?

But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Also, without KCM, that is getting the chakra without the mind, drawing on lots of kyuubi power turns on bestial, and has a big source of evil right there inside their head. Not exactly conductive to precise sensors powers, is it?

And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

Would it be great to have more? Sure. But we only *know* one way to have the ability, and we have no info pointing to anything else.

Some evidence > No evidence.

But I honestly don't think that Mito, who could for all intents and purposes not exist in the manga and no one would notice, really warrants any discussion, and probably shouldn't be on the Ratings list at all, if I were to be honest.

Discussion? Maybe not. But ratings? As long as we have a general impression of someone's power, they've gone on so far.

Well I'm working off the assumption that she's probably not as strong as current Naruto.

Things she has Naruto doesn't: Master sealing.

Things Naruto has she doesn't: Rasengan, sage mode.

Things both have: Kyuubi Mastery to uber-sensor levels.

Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if current Naruto, when fighting unified, breaks into SS-, but at the least he's pretty high within S+. Even without his two extra abilities, though, I do thing *just* the pure KCM abilities are plenty to make someone S+, they really are pretty uber on their own.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i want her, and kushina off the list, and for Q99 to kiss the ring

Sorry, but whining is not an argument and never will be 🙂

You made this thread to try and 'prove' your point but right off the bat you gave up trying to make you point right off the bat and backed off into whining again.

If you can't respond with an argument and can only complain and cry about it, why should I care what you say? It's just a grudge against a character(s), not a power argument, and it's not an opinion poll.

"rubber guy" has more feats.

Rubber guy is on the list too, and Kushina has more feats than him.

We do have people on based on informed ability too, like Hashirama.

We put Muu up when all we knew was all the Kage felt only Onoki could meet him. Less than Mito has now, in other words.

3rd Raikage got on more for his informed performance than his actual shown feats, which weren't *that* high (and he got on before said feats at that, too).

We have umbrella-needle guy. Kiba's mom and Shino's dad. Hizashi. Baki. And so on.

Yea, I'm being consistent. I'm not going to indulge in your pet dislike with no evidence, stop whining about it and grow up.

Originally posted by Q99
But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Also, without KCM, that is getting the chakra without the mind, drawing on lots of kyuubi power turns on bestial, and has a big source of evil right there inside their head. Not exactly conductive to precise sensors powers, is it?

And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

Would it be great to have more? Sure. But we only *know* one way to have the ability, and we have no info pointing to anything else.

Some evidence > No evidence.

Discussion? Maybe not. But ratings? As long as we have a general impression of someone's power, they've gone on so far.

Things she has Naruto doesn't: Master sealing.

Things Naruto has she doesn't: Rasengan, sage mode.

Things both have: Kyuubi Mastery to uber-sensor levels.

Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if current Naruto, when fighting unified, breaks into SS-, but at the least he's pretty high within S+. Even without his two extra abilities, though, I do thing *just* the pure KCM abilities are plenty to make someone S+, they really are pretty uber on their own.

Sorry, but whining is not an argument and never will be 🙂

You made this thread to try and 'prove' your point but right off the bat you gave up trying to make you point right off the bat and backed off into whining again.

If you can't respond with an argument and can only complain and cry about it, why should I care what you say? It's just a grudge against a character(s), not a power argument, and it's not an opinion poll.

Rubber guy is on the list too, and Kushina has more feats than him.

We do have people on based on informed ability too, like Hashirama.

We put Muu up when all we knew was all the Kage felt only Onoki could meet him. Less than Mito has now, in other words.

3rd Raikage got on more for his informed performance than his actual shown feats, which weren't *that* high (and he got on before said feats at that, too).

We have umbrella-needle guy. Kiba's mom and Shino's dad. Hizashi. Baki. And so on.

Yea, I'm being consistent. I'm not going to indulge in your pet dislike with no evidence, stop whining about it and grow up.

I have nothing against Psycho Gundam because he's my boy...but...

Well said. 😄 👆

And, with the experience Naruto's clones got fighting for that long period of time...it SHOULD give him a nice experience boost with KCM and other things. He's basically been fighting all damn day or something like that.

To think that Mito had that mode for decades.

Why does no one acknowledge the requirements to be a jinchuriki are "lots of natural chakra levels and very skilled ninja"? She is taking in the Kyuubi which was full powered (Jiraiya said, in reference to he half powered Kyuubi, that it had the most chakra out of the tailed beasts) so it required her to have waaaaaaaay more chakra than most characters in Naruto could have. We also know that she was an Uzamaki, which means she ALREADY had lots of chakra...but she was exceptional among Uzumaki, even, meaning she was retardedly chakra-leveled. And she had KCM? She's easily Kage-level. With her hand seals (she sealed the beast in herself...wtf? HERSELF! If that doesn't say she was exceptional (because other nations have a team do it...)...)

Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

Originally posted by Bentley
Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

HA! 😄

Originally posted by Bentley
Rubber guy should get an spin off, about pirates.

Best thing anyone's said this thread, I would totally buy that manga!

Will Jinpachi be his first mate?

Random Love Letter guy would obviously be the Gol D Roger character in this spinoff.

Sorry, but whining is not an argument and never will be

Well, little kids use the argument so never will be is a stretch. awesome

Why does no one acknowledge the requirements to be a jinchuriki are "lots of natural chakra levels and very skilled ninja"?

Mostly because it isn't. Premature baby Gaara wasn't really a ninja. Nor was Naruto. They might have had a large amount of chakra but I dunno.

But now I'm just nitpicking. 😛

Originally posted by Q99
But we know Kushina was an experienced Kyuubi Jinchuuriki who had chakra good at controlling Kyuubi, and she didn't have it, and nor did any of the other modes grant *any* sensor awareness to Naruto.

Considering all of Naruto's other Kyuubi modes consisted mostly of of "RAWR NARUTO SMASH" him not using it in those modes isn't really a defense.

Also, without KCM, that is getting the chakra without the mind, drawing on lots of kyuubi power turns on bestial, and has a big source of evil right there inside their head. Not exactly conductive to precise sensors powers, is it?

By that train of thought I guess Kushina did not in fact have any decent control over the Kyuubi's chakra because obviously without that mode it is impossible to control Kyuubi's power.

[quote[And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

Would it be great to have more? Sure. But we only *know* one way to have the ability, and we have no info pointing to anything else.

Some evidence > No evidence.[/quote]

You've managed to sidestep a large chunk of my argument. If you want to discuss this with anything resembling rationality, don't do that.

Namely that the conditions that lead to using the KCM were created by Minato, if I am recally correctly.

Discussion? Maybe not. But ratings? As long as we have a general impression of someone's power, they've gone on so far.

Perhaps that is a problem inherent in the system then.

Things she has Naruto doesn't: Master sealing.

Which usually doesn't mean a whole lot in a fight. Only Danzo has demonstrated combat sealing on someone who didn't already have a seal on them (Like Naruto), though I suppose we could assume she could use it for other useful effects, like when Jiraiya sealed Amaterasu.

Things Naruto has she doesn't: Rasengan, sage mode.

You forgot a plethora of demonstratable feats and the ability to hang with the top dogs in the Naruto universe.

Things both have: Kyuubi Mastery to uber-sensor levels.

Yes but she hasn't exactly shown to have or explicitly said to have the KCM has she?

Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if current Naruto, when fighting unified, breaks into SS-, but at the least he's pretty high within S+. Even without his two extra abilities, though, I do thing *just* the pure KCM abilities are plenty to make someone S+, they really are pretty uber on their own.

How is he pretty high into S+? He's not even that much stronger than A, if at all, who is S. He is demonstratably not as powerful as Bee as well.

This discussion can go no further until you answer this: Did or didn't Minato create the seals that lead to the creation of the KCM?

I'm pretty sure she did. Mito only had the four trigram or whatever it's called seal that held the Kyuubi in her, Naruto had the Eight Trigrams seal and then received teh key to unlock KCM.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Mostly because it isn't. Premature baby Gaara wasn't really a ninja. Nor was Naruto. They might have had a large amount of chakra but I dunno.

But now I'm just nitpicking. 😛

No, it is.

Gaara has a crap-ton of natural chakra levels: one of the highest natural levels of those "alive".

In order to USE the chakra from your tailed beast, you have to have lots of chakra...or you die.

Selecting the son of a good kunoichi and the Kazekage is hardly a reason to say Gaara wasn't predicted to have lots of natural chakra....it's actually a no brainer. 🙂

NemeBro
By that train of thought I guess Kushina did not in fact have any decent control over the Kyuubi's chakra because obviously without that mode it is impossible to control Kyuubi's power.

Exactly, that's why she got bumped down awhile back; she can likely control a good number of tails worth of chakra cloak, but that tells us she has neither KCM nor total transformation mastery.

Considering all of Naruto's other Kyuubi modes consisted mostly of of "RAWR NARUTO SMASH" him not using it in those modes isn't really a defense.

That's precisely the point- higher modes make you go "RAWR, Jinchuuriki smash!" unless you can separate mind from chakra. If someone didn't have the ability to do so, which is specifically what makes KCM we're told as the darkness of the mind is the limiting factor and without it you can pull as much as you like, then they'd never be a useful sensor.

Which usually doesn't mean a whole lot in a fight. Only Danzo has demonstrated combat sealing on someone who didn't already have a seal on them (Like Naruto), though I suppose we could assume she could use it for other useful effects, like when Jiraiya sealed Amaterasu.

Danzo, Minato (on Bee), Sarutobi (death god), Kushina (could seal Kyuubi within herself. Mito was said to have actually done this, btw), and Iruka (that seal trap he tried using on Naruto to keep him on the island).

You forgot a plethora of demonstratable feats and the ability to hang with the top dogs in the Naruto universe.

No, I really don't. One, we have one high-end feat from her, the sealing of Kyuubi. Two, if we're told someone is as fast, strong, and tough as A, or as dangerous with puppets as Chiyo, then we'd put them at the same levels, wouldn't we? Known equivalency counts.

How is he pretty high into S+? He's not even that much stronger than A, if at all, who is S. He is demonstratably not as powerful as Bee as well.

Because he can be 10 about-as-strong-as-A at once. He's got so much chakra even his individual clones are S-class.

This discussion can go no further until you answer this: Did or didn't Minato create the seals that lead to the creation of the KCM?

Minato used 8-trigam sealing style on Naruto, but it wasn't said he invented it and he did learn his seals from the Uzumaki.

Take a look at Kushina's: here. Note that it has 8 seal bits on it, four on top four on the bottom, and probably it was originally done by Mito.

8-trigrams shouldn't be the only seal that allows total taking of the biju chakra, but it seems to be 8-trigrams or similar in any case.

Dadudemon

Selecting the son of a good kunoichi and the Kazekage is hardly a reason to say Gaara wasn't predicted to have lots of natural chakra....it's actually a no brainer.

Also, chakra compatibility was flat-out mentioned. Bee's family had the chakra for it, the Uzumakis did, and before they used Gaara they did note "He's compatible".

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have nothing against Psycho Gundam because he's my boy...but...

Well said. 😄 👆

q99 said it best himself:

Originally posted by Q99
And no, it's not impossible to believe... but we also have nothing indicating that to be the case. We have one scenario with evidence pointing at it, and the rest is just speculation.

"the rest" being 85% of what makes current naruto a capable ninja in the manga right now. mito can at least know that kisame is hiding in his sword....that helps i guess. ermm

kisame tools her in this thread brah

Originally posted by psycho gundam
horribly said actually: he's using his wonky list as the rationale for mito/kushina.

Oh wait you're serious

Why yes, you are actually complaining about a consistently used rationale on the list being used as a reason for her to be on the same list. Think about how silly that sounds for a moment. "Waaah, you're being consistent!" simply isn't going to do.

Your focus on Kushina doesn't help either, since we've seen her fight. It's really obviously just some petty grudge and not a considered argument.

So, uh, cry some more? You aren't like Neme, who's debating, you're just yelling that you aren't getting your way. I see no reason not to just put you in your corner with your bottle and continue to not care what you're whining about.

"the rest" being 85% of what makes current naruto a capable ninja in the manga right now. mito can at least know that kisame is hiding in his sword....that helps i guess. ermm

And the Kyuubi Chakra Mode's physical abilities.

If one actually looks at the list, Mito is hardly the worst offender. And complaining about Kushina is just silly.

I always thought the rule of thumb was, if they have a name and anything else to work with, judge 'em. Of course the list isn't perfect, but for what it is, it's better than something I could make.

Genma is noticeably absent from the list by the way. B+ to A-?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If one actually looks at the list, Mito is hardly the worst offender. And complaining about Kushina is just silly.

I always thought the rule of thumb was, if they have a name and anything else to work with, judge 'em. Of course the list isn't perfect, but for what it is, it's better than something I could make.

Exactly. It's not intended to be totally strict about who's on it.

Genma is noticeably absent from the list by the way. B+ to A-? [/B]

Hm, he has very good databook stats, but the only technique of his we know about is FTG and for some reason he's still only Special Jonin, so B+.