Mito Uzumaki vs Kisame Hoshigaki (w/the Samahada)

Originally posted by Q99
Exactly, that's why she got bumped down awhile back; she can likely control a good number of tails worth of chakra cloak, but that tells us she has neither KCM nor total transformation mastery.

estahuh

My ploy to use a character you like against you has failed. I didn't expect this.

That's precisely the point- higher modes make you go "RAWR, Jinchuuriki smash!" unless you can separate mind from chakra. If someone didn't have the ability to do so, which is specifically what makes KCM we're told as the darkness of the mind is the limiting factor and without it you can pull as much as you like, then they'd never be a useful sensor.

I'm not recalling much of the specifics concerning this, honestly.

Danzo, Minato (on Bee), Sarutobi (death god), Kushina (could seal Kyuubi within herself. Mito was said to have actually done this, btw), and Iruka (that seal trap he tried using on Naruto to keep him on the island).

estahuh

I can't even pretend that I didn't forget most of those. I'm particularly ashamed about forgetting Minato and Kushina's, which happened recently.

Though I didn't count Sarutobi since, well, that requires dying.

No, I really don't. One, we have one high-end feat from her, the sealing of Kyuubi. Two, if we're told someone is as fast, strong, and tough as A, or as dangerous with puppets as Chiyo, then we'd put them at the same levels, wouldn't we? Known equivalency counts.[/qupte]

Eh. I just dislike automatically making definitive statements concerning a character when it is still ultimately an assumption.

I'd even admit she probably has the same mode now, but I still dislike claiming she definitely has it.

[quote]Because he can be 10 about-as-strong-as-A at once. He's got so much chakra even his individual clones are S-class.

I'd forgotten that Naruto can do that (Despite it happening right now apparently). Partially because it's so absurdly broken I wish he couldn't do it.

Minato used 8-trigam sealing style on Naruto, but it wasn't said he invented it and he did learn his seals from the Uzumaki.

Take a look at Kushina's: here. Note that it has 8 seal bits on it, four on top four on the bottom, and probably it was originally done by Mito.

8-trigrams shouldn't be the only seal that allows total taking of the biju chakra, but it seems to be 8-trigrams or similar in any case.

Fair enough, I've forgotten that.

Originally posted by Q99
You aren't like Neme, who's debating

<3

But on that note, I now take my leave in terms of debating in this thread. I can't come up with a convincing counter-argument at the moment, and as such concede. Which means it's not really necessary to respond to this post.

mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status.

not sure how that's whining but whatever, it's water off of an incandescent duck's back

Originally posted by NemeBro
estahuh

My ploy to use a character you like against you has failed. I didn't expect this.

Yea, I listen to arguments 🙂

There's a few people on the list in spots I wouldn't put them at, but others have presented enough for that I really just had to concede.

I can't even pretend that I didn't forget most of those. I'm particularly ashamed about forgetting Minato and Kushina's, which happened recently.

Though I didn't count Sarutobi since, well, that requires dying.

I think the real zinger is Iruka. If a chunin can do useful seals in combat, then it's not too crazy hard.

I'd forgotten that Naruto can do that (Despite it happening right now apparently). Partially because it's so absurdly broken I wish he couldn't do it.

Exactly.

I mean, when he got KCM, I was like, "Ehh, high stats, sure, but Sage mode already did that..."

Then, he makes a bunch of him and they *all kick as much ass*. Which made me go 😑

But on that note, I now take my leave in terms of debating in this thread. I can't come up with a convincing counter-argument at the moment, and as such concede. Which means it's not really necessary to respond to this post.

Gonna do so anyway ^^

So Q99 is pwning everyone. Awesome.

(But Kushina was bumped down to S. Something I wanted forever ago. Yay. awesome)

Originally posted by psycho gundam
mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status.

not sure how that's whining but whatever, it's water off of an incandescent duck's back

Kyuubi Chakra Mode>Kisame.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
mito get's too much credit, and when put to the test against kisame (who is handicapped on purpose) nothing convincing is brought up to justify her supposed status.

It's only not-convincing to you in the sense of you ignoring everything being brought up.

Which says nothing about the arguments and a lot about your ability to stick your fingers in your ears ^^

Also- seriously, what is up with thinking Kisame, slayer of Jinchuuriki, is handicapped against a Jinchuuriki? He handled 4-tails solo and did incredibly well against Killerbee. He is one of the most dangerous S-mid characters for a host face!

I think you're really underestimating Kisame too.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kyuubi Chakra Mode>Kisame.

if ramen stand guy had it, would he be above kisame too?

Yes he would. 😐

Originally posted by Q99
It's only not-convincing to you in the sense of you ignoring everything being brought up.

Which says nothing about the arguments and a lot about your ability to stick your fingers in your ears ^^

Also- seriously, what is up with thinking Kisame, slayer of Jinchuuriki, is handicapped against a Jinchuuriki? He handled 4-tails solo and did incredibly well against Killerbee. He is one of the most dangerous S-mid characters for a host face!

I think you're really underestimating Kisame too.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
well, the fatal flaw of samahada is a problem. i'm not sure if it's the chackra taste of bee or the sheer amount he has that compels the sword to stick with him.

again, not that he needs to sap chackra though, she can just drown like team gai was going to

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if ramen stand guy had it, would he be above kisame too?

Yes. It's an auto- S class level ability.

Assume any random ninja X: if x has an ability that bumped X's speed up to almost unparalleled levels, a large strength boost, and an ESP "how evil are they?" sensing ability, X automatically becomes an S-class threat.

Let us put it this way: Naruto could keep up, without problem, to A. A was the fastest ninja alive. So fast that it could doop the Sharingan's predictive abilities. That's a broken ability and there's very few who can defend against such speed. Even Kisame, who I think is a beast in Taijutsu, was shocked by it.

that's the thing: mito is getting all of that for free when for all we know she could just sense evil intent. tobi didn't mention anything but that ability so i'm not going to do it either.

the kyuubi grants this ability (the only common denominator here), and the seal and circumstances that surround the sealing within mito were different than naruto, so i'm not jumping to conclusions without proof.

The Kyuubi does not grant this ability. The mode grants this ability. If it was just the Kyuubi, Naruto would demonstrate the ability while harnessing the Kyuubi's chakra outside the mode. He doesn't.

I frankly don't think that even if Mito has the mode she could beat Kisame, honestly, short of using the broken clones.

The mode inherently just gives amplified physical stats on par with Bee, which as we have seen is not sufficient to take on Kisame.

Just my two cents on Kisame actually fighting a Mito with the Mode. Barring broken clones of brokenness.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I frankly don't think that even if Mito has the mode she could beat Kisame, honestly, short of using the broken clones.

The mode inherently just gives amplified physical stats on par with Bee, which as we have seen is not sufficient to take on Kisame.

Just my two cents on Kisame actually fighting a Mito with the Mode. Barring broken clones of brokenness.

We actually covered this: it grants physical stats superior to Bee.

A is the fastest alive. He did not go all out against Bee. He DID do so against Naruto.

Well, he probably did use his full strength against Bee. I don't think he used his fullspeed though. Not that it would matter cause Bee never actually proved himself to be faster than A.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's the thing: mito is getting all of that for free when for all we know she could just sense evil intent. tobi didn't mention anything but that ability so i'm not going to do it either.

This has been covered a couple times now.

Either KCM does it, or two people have the exact same prerequisites for the same incredibly rare ability yet somehow get it via different means.

We know that drawing on kyuubi chakra without the mode draws in the Kyuubi's evil and makes one beastial, which rather precludes being a good sensor- no prior level granted any sensor ability at all, let alone the highest forum of sensor ability in the world. We also know that being able to draw upon the chakra without the mind is what lets you get as much as you need and thus KCM.

Do you have any evidence supporting this 'coincidental different methods to get a nigh-unique ability' hypothesis of yours? Because that's the conclusion you're jumping to.

NemeBro
I frankly don't think that even if Mito has the mode she could beat Kisame, honestly, short of using the broken clones.

The mode inherently just gives amplified physical stats on par with Bee, which as we have seen is not sufficient to take on Kisame.

Just my two cents on Kisame actually fighting a Mito with the Mode. Barring broken clones of brokenness.

Broken clones of brokenness were what I've been thinking of 🙂

With the broken clone effect, Mito would probably win with KCM, yeah. I don't see any reason why she wouldn't know how to make clones. One could perhaps make the argument that she is not aware of the inherent broken nonsense using clones in that form brings however, though it seems like something someone would try.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We actually covered this: it grants physical stats superior to Bee.

A is the fastest alive. He did not go all out against Bee. He DID do so against Naruto.

The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

And then it directly stated that only two people have ever bested him at his full speed, just mere pages later.

Pick which authority you are going to subscribe to.

Or, you could just take the statement in context and understand it was a strength test, not a speed test. 😉

Originally posted by NemeBro
Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

None of that has anything to do with what I am talking about.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The manga directly stated that Bee surpassed his brother. Not his brother holding back.

Before Bee was shown to surpass him, the flashback directly brings up A chewing Bee out about not being able to match his speed using the Lariat.

Bee at the least matched the speed of the Lariat and exceeded it in power.

Naruto himself directly notes that a straight punch from A might kill him.

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/542/8

I'm certainly seeing the words power and strength. Speed, not so much. Unless you have a different translation?

I'll just note that as long as you have the broken clones of brokenness (such a great name), it could be 80% of A and B and it'd still be crazy high power.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And then it directly stated that only two people have ever bested him at his full speed, just mere pages later.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c544/14.html

"You're only the second person to dodge my top-speed punch."

Bee didn't dodge it, he matched it. 131

If there is a difference in speed between A and Bee, it isn't very large.

Pick which authority you are going to subscribe to.

Not sure what you mean.

Or, you could just take the statement in context and understand it was a strength test, not a speed test. 😉

Or it could be both. 🙂 The notion that A, despite being in his second level Lightning Release form, was going slower than normal, has no backing.

That said, I did misremember the flashback, I'll admit that.

None of that has anything to do with what I am talking about.

You said KCM grants superior physical stats to Bee.

Speed? Yeah.

Strength? Demonstratably not.

Durability? Bee took the Lariat to the neck while overpower it, compared to Naruto who admitted that at full contact being hit by A would screw him. Do note Naruto said this concerning an A who was still in his "calmer" Lightning Shroud.