Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
You still go to school?
Yes and I'll continue to go for many years.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Another good question would be to look at how much support from home they got and what their families started with. Africans who can trace back to slaves have a family history that starts with nothing.
That's true of the Italians (and many other immigrants from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries), as well. The extreme majority came with nothing. They were the poorest of poor and heavily discriminated against.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm looking at your source right now and finding something odd.
Nigerian descent: 33% managerial professional
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/ancestry/Nigerian.txt
Maybe it's the Italians that need to catch up?
So Nigerians are all of African Americans and in no way represent a particular group of sub-Saharan African immigrants?
Originally posted by inimalist
I'd suggest you are undervaluing the impact of slavery, jim crow and all that stuff.
How could you come to that conclusion when I haven't even stated my reasons for the differences?
Originally posted by inimalist
culture may have been against white irish, italian and jewish people at some point (catholics too), but the entire judicial, policing and governmental system were set up against black people.
Well, from what I found, all of those applied to Italians: judicial system, policing, and commericial organizations were very much against Italians. I never knew that there were "Italian Lynchings" in America. There were anti-Italian laws, too. It wasn't just some "disparate impact" legilsation, either: it was specific to Italians. There were quotas put in place on the number of people allowed from countries (lol). I guess it was getting bad. There were local laws, too, like no Italians loitering n'stuff.
My points were going to be ones that were about their physical appearance making it easier to blend. They also changed their last names to be more "American" sounding. That's how my last name ended up being what it is. 😄
Also, they preyed on eachother so the "community support" thing is not really a good point. In some cases, the Italians made it worse on each other.
I also think their culture/religion played a large role in their ability to cope in a new land...but starting on the bottom of the totem pole. So, yes, social identity helped. If you think African Americans didn't carry over their religion or customs, you'd be wrong (ambiguous you). In fact, someone made the case (I believe, successfully) that all of our modern music (pop music) gets their drum beats/tracks from an African influence. That's awesome.
Originally posted by dadudemon
How could you come to that conclusion when I haven't even stated my reasons for the differences?Well, from what I found, all of those applied to Italians: judicial system, policing, and commericial organizations were very much against Italians. I never knew that there were "Italian Lynchings" in America. There were anti-Italian laws, too. It wasn't just some "disparate impact" legilsation, either: it was specific to Italians. There were quotas put in place on the number of people allowed from countries (lol). I guess it was getting bad. There were local laws, too, like no Italians loitering n'stuff.
My points were going to be ones that were about their physical appearance making it easier to blend. They also changed their last names to be more "American" sounding. That's how my last name ended up being what it is. 😄
Also, they preyed on eachother so the "community support" thing is not really a good point. In some cases, the Italians made it worse on each other.
I'd just say there are far more salient historical reasons than simply "blacks look different" or "have different names". Whether there were similar types of abuse, the scale and acceptance of it compared to the white minorities is really not comparable.
Originally posted by inimalist
I'd just say there are far more salient historical reasons than simply "blacks look different" or "have different names". Whether there were similar types of abuse, the scale and acceptance of it compared to the white minorities is really not comparable.
You mean when the largest lynching on record was 11 Italians? See what I did there? 😐
And, no, at some points and places, blacks were more accepted than Italians (and Irish). The, "no WOPs allowed" but separate places for blacks in establishments pretty much establishes how anti-Italian some parts of America were.
And, yes, what they looked like and what their names were directly and significantly determined how well they "blended in".
It was far more popular to be "dats racist against blacks" than it was to say "dats racists against Italians". However, if someone argues 'they just blended in", I'd point to the fact that they did not blend in, at all. They just forged their own place and hate died down as immigration died down....because they blended in to the minds of the existing "whites".
Originally posted by dadudemonAlso, they preyed on eachother so the "community support" thing is not really a good point. In some cases, the Italians made it worse on each other.[/B]
Perhaps this was a phenomenon back in the day when they first jumped off the boat; if it was, it was short-lived. But pertinent to your question of how Italians have succeded compared to blacks would be the "community support" as it were that you are dismissing.
How else do you explain going to a construction site any time in the 20th century and finding everyone named either Mario or Luigi and related to each other either by blood or marriage? 😄
Originally posted by theICONiac
Perhaps this was a phenomenon back in the day when they first jumped off the boat; if it was, it was short-lived.
I don't think 60-80 years is "short-lived". In fact, it hasn't completely died down yet: there are still protection rings.
Originally posted by theICONiac
But pertinent to your question of how Italians have succeded compared to blacks would be the "community support" as it were that you are dismissing.
Except, no. It looks like you're basing your opinion on "tight familial bonds" off of one too many mafia movies and The Sopranos. facepalm
Originally posted by theICONiac
How else do you explain going to a construction site any time in the 20th century and finding everyone named either Mario or Luigi and related to each other either by blood or marriage? 😄
Don't forget "micks", too. 😐
Yeah, it was comprised of immigrant workers, not just Italians. The Italians, the Irish, etc. were the Latinos of yesteryear. And, no, they were not all related to each other. In fact, it was mostly the opposite. Hardly any of them were related.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Except, no. It looks like you're basing your opinion on "tight familial bonds" off of one too many mafia movies and The Sopranos. facepalm
Sorry dadudemon, but your supposed info on the dynamics of Italian family/community is not going to trump my life experiences here in Toronto.
I went to a Catholic school were the student body was easily 50% Italian. The street I grew up on (mostly protestant white with a smattering of black/east asian) was adjacent to another, wealthier street. EXCLUSIVELY Italian. Had many friends who went to my school who lived there. Parents who were either 1st/2nd generation Canadians.
The closeness and sense of community on this street of about 200 houses was kinda cool. It was like a different world.
Their success was largely due to who they were/their strong work ethic. How come this richer street wasn't all Irish immigrants? Because the Irish never had the same mindset as the Italians did/do.
And BTW, before you come back and say this is Canada and not the same, we have black people too, and they are also over-represented in the criminal system/poverty statistics as well.
Originally posted by dadudemon
In my history class, we were tasked with researching and writing about how poorly Italian Americans were treated. I did not know how truly poorly they were treated until I dug into the research. Some of it is just awful. Reminded me of the treatment of African Americans and in some ways it was worse.They were discrimnated against (true), lynched (true), routinely denied jobs and education because of their ethnicity (true), were persecuted because of their religion (true...Americans didn't like Catholics for obvious reasons), came to America at the bottom of the social totem pole (true), and were relegated to very low-paying blue-collar jobs (true). Yet, as early as 1990, 30 of Italians were managers or professionals and 35% were white-collar. http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/ancestry/Italian.txt
So, how is that possible for such a heavily discriminated against people to rise from the ashes in such a short period of time?
Basically, why is there such a difference between Italian Americans and African Americans? What factors from and for each group lead to their differing socioeconomic statuses?
I actually had many reasons for the differences. But I wanted to read/hear reasons from others before I got into it.
The answer to your question may be "unity". Many African American people have the every man for themselves attitude. I've heard, and knew that at a time, Italians were treated poorly, but they were still allowed to sit at the front of the bus, use the same washrooms, eat in the same restaurants, and date other (classified) Caucasians.
Unity may be the reason that keeps African Americans locked in stasis, and has other ethnicity's thrive at a larger rate than them. It wasn't five days ago that I heard that a study had been done, that determined that African American women were the least likely to ever be married.
It would be nice if one day, we could all become united as a people, and destroy the ethnic lines drawn from a time that should be long passed, but I doubt that, that would ever happen as long as the government, media, and schools continue to use the term "what race are you from?" when we are all from the same race. Next time you read a job application, notice how it asks what race are you from. When it should be what is your ethnicity.
Just my two cents.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, no, at some points and places, blacks were more accepted than Italians (and Irish). The, "no WOPs allowed" but separate places for blacks in establishments pretty much establishes how anti-Italian some parts of America were.
thats sort of my exact point. as the system existed, white immigrants were persecuted as whites within the same system as other whites, whereas an entire novel system of repression was designed to deal with blacks
Originally posted by dadudemonI'm sure they tried to but were not as successful as other groups because, for the most part, the other groups were not captured in their homelands and brought here against their will for the expressed purpose of enslavement (at least, afaik, not to the same degree).
If you think African Americans didn't carry over their religion or customs, you'd be wrong ...
Maybe I'm looking too much at 'pop history', but it seems like no other group was as culturally/familially 'deconstructed' as Africans.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's true of the Italians (and many other immigrants from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries), as well. The extreme majority came with nothing. They were the poorest of poor and heavily discriminated against.
It seems to me that having been a slave your whole life and suddenly losing your job because you're legally "free" is a bit more extreme of a starting point for a family line than being a poor immigrant.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So Nigerians are all of African Americans and in no way represent a particular group of sub-Saharan African immigrants?
Yes 😐
Actually I was going to average together a few countries from Africa but I couldn't find any others.
Originally posted by theICONiac
Sorry dadudemon, but your supposed info on the dynamics of Italian family/community is not going to trump my life experiences here in Toronto.I went to a Catholic school were the student body was easily 50% Italian. The street I grew up on (mostly protestant white with a smattering of black/east asian) was adjacent to another, wealthier street. EXCLUSIVELY Italian. Had many friends who went to my school who lived there. Parents who were either 1st/2nd generation Canadians.
The closeness and sense of community on this street of about 200 houses was kinda cool. It was like a different world.
Their success was largely due to who they were/their strong work ethic. How come this richer street wasn't all Irish immigrants? Because the Irish never had the same mindset as the Italians did/do.
And BTW, before you come back and say this is Canada and not the same, we have black people too, and they are also over-represented in the criminal system/poverty statistics as well.
Okay, so your entire point contained in this post is irrelevant to not only this thread but the post you replied to.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It seems to me that having been a slave your whole life and suddenly losing your job because you're legally "free" is a bit more extreme of a starting point for a family line than being a poor immigrant.
It seems to me that having many of your family members die on the way to America because of putrescent conditions during the voyage, having nothing but the clothes on your back and what you can carry in your pockets, and being heavily discriminated against once you got to America (sounds remarkably similar to the "middle passage" crap that he Africans had to endure on the way to America, doesn't it?) is a bit more extreme of a starting point than having 3 decades to look for a job after being freed from slavery.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes 😐Actually I was going to average together a few countries from Africa but I couldn't find any others.
lol
Originally posted by inimalist
thats sort of my exact point. as the system existed, white immigrants were persecuted as whites within the same system as other whites, whereas an entire novel system of repression was designed to deal with blacks
I dunno...
If I had the option to eat a place...but had to do so with people of my same general ethnicity versus NOT eating at the place at all, I would choose the former. It seems like an obvious choice. Hell, I bet you some of the blacks were glad so many Irish and Italians came over: took some of the heat off of them in some places, no doubt. Being able to go to places that other "whites" could not go must have made many of them feel truly free (and I do not fault them for it).
But lumping them all in as "whites" is also another problem: no matter how adamant you or others may be, sorry, it was hard for most of them to hide their ethnicity. Sure, Italians may have great variance in "appearance" but the vast majority of the Italian-American immigrants came from southern Italy. Only a brief peek at history tells us why. How in the world could people systematically discriminate against Italians if they didn't reveal their names or even speak? Obviously, their appearance. I am sure some unfair discrimination occurred against mistaken non-Italians..."Get out of my shop! We don't serve WOPs here!" Then they kick out an innocent Lithuanian who doesn't get a chance to declare his innocence. But, we have to be real: they were found out and discriminated against because of their language, accents, ethnic appearance, clothing, names, religion, and at times their behavior.
Originally posted by Stoic
The answer to your question may be "unity". Many African American people have the every man for themselves attitude. I've heard, and knew that at a time, Italians were treated poorly, but they were still allowed to sit at the front of the bus, use the same washrooms, eat in the same restaurants, and date other (classified) Caucasians.
Not entirely true. Some were not permitted (along with the Irish) to go to establishments that even blacks could. Some were not permitted to use services at all that blacks got to use. They were treated like dogs, in some places. The hate was so great that there were public lynchings and it was so bad that the "record" for the most lynchings at once is 11 Italians...not blacks. Which is crazy.
Originally posted by Stoic
Unity may be the reason that keeps African Americans locked in stasis, and has other ethnicity's thrive at a larger rate than them. It wasn't five days ago that I heard that a study had been done, that determined that African American women were the least likely to ever be married.
I agree: the social system and attitudes of the immigrants DO play a large role. Also, their ability to eventually "blend" when the anger at their group gave them an advantage over blacks, too.
Originally posted by Stoic
It would be nice if one day, we could all become united as a people, and destroy the ethnic lines drawn from a time that should be long passed, but I doubt that, that would ever happen as long as the government, media, and schools continue to use the term "what race are you from?" when we are all from the same race. Next time you read a job application, notice how it asks what race are you from. When it should be what is your ethnicity.Just my two cents.
I agree here, as well. I looked up Italian-American discrimination and saw that there are some groups trying to bring up causes similar to the NAACP: they want to be recognized as being discriminated against and be considered along the same lines as African Americans. That's hilariously not going to work because they seem to have done well enough for themselves, on average. It is hard to sell that you're being discriminated against when you are above population averages for most other ethnic groups.
Originally posted by Mindship
I'm sure they tried to but were not as successful as other groups because, for the most part, the other groups were not captured in their homelands and brought here against their will for the expressed purpose of enslavement (at least, afaik, not to the same degree).Maybe I'm looking too much at 'pop history', but it seems like no other group was as culturally/familially 'deconstructed' as Africans.
No, you're correct. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't complete annihilation. Thanks to their traditions, we have things like "western voodoo" and ...well........pretty much all modern music. Believe it or not...electronica owes its actual roots to African slaves! GASPITY! Dem hard BEATS, boy!
Originally posted by dadudemon
It seems to me that having many of your family members die on the way to America because of putrescent conditions during the voyage, having nothing but the clothes on your back and what you can carry in your pockets, and being heavily discriminated against once you got to America (sounds remarkably similar to the "middle passage" crap that he Africans had to endure on the way to America, doesn't it?) is a bit more extreme of a starting point than having 3 decades to look for a job after being freed from slavery.
I hope that I'm not taking this out of context; but there is a big difference between being conquered, driven from your home, into the open arms of huge sailing vessels, taught that all of your beliefs were heathenish, renamed, beaten, sold into slavery, watching helplessly at times when your wife was raped, than under your own power deciding to freely migrate to a place that you assume would grant you and yours a better life.
The Italians weren't taken from their homes against their wills. There's a bit of a difference when you look at it in those terms, you have to admit.
Originally posted by Stoic
I hope that I'm not taking this out of context; but there is a big difference between being conquered, driven from your home, into the open arms of huge sailing vessels, taught that all of your beliefs were heathenish, renamed, beaten, sold into slavery, watching helplessly at times when your wife was raped, and under your own power deciding to freely migrate to a place that you assume would grant you and yours a better life.
That wasn't true for all of them...just like it wasn't true for all of of the Italians.
There's also a difference between coming to America of your own free will (that's a misnomer in and of itself because many could choose death in their own country or just try to come here)just to be the lowest of the low in most places, among other humans. Many of them thought they would be temporarily here for work.
Originally posted by Stoic
The Italians weren't taken from their homes against their wills. There's a bit of a difference when you look at it in those terms, you have to admit.
I see the difference as being a bit arbitrary since the outcomes were crap for both and are comparable in many ways. However, for reasons I already outline (and others), the Italians had a better shot at it, long term.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It seems to me that having many of your family members die on the way to America because of putrescent conditions during the voyage, having nothing but the clothes on your back and what you can carry in your pockets, and being heavily discriminated against once you got to America (sounds remarkably similar to the "middle passage" crap that he Africans had to endure on the way to America, doesn't it?) is a bit more extreme of a starting point than having 3 decades to look for a job after being freed from slavery.
30 years that many of them spent as slaves in all but name thanks to sharecropping. More than a few freed slaves had no choice but to go right back to their owners.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That wasn't true for all of them...just like it wasn't true for all of of the Italians.There's also a difference between coming to America of your own free will (that's a misnomer in and of itself because many could choose death in their own country or just try to come here)just to be the lowest of the low in most places, among other humans. Many of them thought they would be temporarily here for work.
I see the difference as being a bit arbitrary since the outcomes were crap for both and are comparable in many ways. However, for reasons I already outline (and others), the Italians had a better shot at it, long term.
hmmm, I didn't know how deep it actually went thanks for the lesson (not being sarcastic, I really didn't know). The thing here is that the struggle continues for blacks even today, a very good friend of mine, who happens to be a part time Bus Driver, and prominent business man had to restrain himself from breaking a South African mans neck, for calling him kaffa. The South African man told him "hey kaffa, go and fetch my bags". Instead of stomp raping him, my buddy threw him off of the bus.
My point being, is that the bullshit, is still going strong. I for the life of me can't tell what causes one person to hate another by just looking at the color of their skin. I used to think that perhaps it was because of a domination game, but as you just pointed out in you post above, things may be more complex than what I may believe.
I'm mixed, I'm American Indian, and Black and not to go on a tangent of whoa is me and all of that shit, I just wanted to share something with you that happened to me as a child.
I was born in Jersey, and raised in Montreal, I went to a school that was predominantly filled with Greek children. One day instead of taking the school bus, my mom drove me to school. One of the Greek children, walked up to me, and began to laugh, and told me that my mother was an ugly monkey. She wasn't of course, my mom was exceptionally good looking in her younger days, she was a model even.
If I were to analyze why a child would, or had that type of thing in their hearts, I would say that racism is perpetual, and that it is handed down from parents to children. So even though slavery has been abolished, statistically speaking, blacks are still in chains. Lower wages for the same jobs, makes it hard for black people to leave the ghettos.
My grand mother lives in the ghetto, and she pays more property taxes than my ex boss, who lives in an affluent community. the treatment is blatant, and in some cases, as clear as day.
Look at Birmingham Alabama for instance, up until 2 years ago, black children and white children were not allowed to go to school dances, or attend proms together.
In my opinion, and if I were to vote on the winner of the take it in the ass, with an exploding Firecracker Award, I'd say African American's win by a land slide.