DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
It was Lucius the Whore, I believe, not Janus. The problem with that is that acceptance of such things seems to be remarkably selective. If I recall, Lucius's point was essentially that we should accept the legend's veracity because there isn't anything presented in the novel to contradict it. Though this is not true: Vitiate's apparent inability to mentally subjugate the members of the Dark Council strongly suggests that his ability to use the Force to compel obedience is limited.

I could be persuaded to accept the legend as the gospel, but not when comments regarding Palpatine's mastery of the Force from The Dark Empire Sourcebook are so casually swept aside by those who are reluctant to accept the fact that his knowledge base transcends any and all Force users who came before him. After all, nothing contradicts the idea that Sidious had nearly mastered all the known powers and so forth.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Again, Revan had to become an avatar of both the light and dark side to withstand Vitiate's attacks.

Not true. He opened himself up to both sides briefly in order to hurl Vitiate off his feet, not to defend himself from Vitiate, nor did he need to channel or focus any of that power-- in fact, he was specifically stated not to have.

Revan
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He actually tried using his saber and his hands to block the force storm I believe.

Just his hands, according to the text.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Also, there's nothing indicating that vitiate needed to focus and channel his power into one attack. This isn't that other weakling who died at the hands of scourge. There is never any indication that Vitiate has to do that.

Who's to say, then, that Revan needed to open himself up to the Force's light and dark sides to attack Vitiate?

The simple fact that he did something which I don't think we've ever seen in the mythos, just to knock Vitiate off his feet, should be enough to indicate it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
If he could do it to 100 sith lords but not to 9, that wouldn't make sense. He must have felt that they deserved death for their betrayal and it's much easier to replace them with other puppets.

A theme that spans the novel regarding Vitiate is his paranoia. If he so easily subjugated the minds of hundreds of Sith Lords, why would he refuse to do the same to the men and women who populate his Dark Council, his closest, most powerful, and most potentially dangerous servants? He feared them enough to execute them the moment he even suspected their plot against him. It seems to me he could have reduced the threat substantially by using the Force to compel their cooperation, especially when the legend indicates he was wont to do so in the past.

So why not now, with the stakes higher and the treachery more dangerous?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sure, but again, nearly could mean 10 techniques or a million. You could use "nearly" for a lot of force users. Sidious may have the most overall knowledge, but he's definitely lacking in specific areas which others have mastered.

That's just it. The quote suggests that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is unparalleled, as no other Force user is known to have mastered that degree of the Force.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
A theme that spans the novel regarding Vitiate is his paranoia. If he so easily subjugated the minds of hundreds of Sith Lords, why would he refuse to do the same to the men and women who populate his Dark Council, his closest, most powerful, and most potentially dangerous servants? He feared them enough to execute them the moment he even suspected their plot against him. It seems to me he could have reduced the threat substantially by using the Force to compel their cooperation, especially when the legend indicates he was wont to do so in the past.

So why not now, with the stakes higher and the treachery more dangerous?

Possibly because there's no way to guarantee that the mind domination would be permanent, as opposed to death.

That's just it. The quote suggests that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is unparalleled, as no other Force user is known to have mastered that degree of the Force. [/B]

Yes, but that was also written before other characters. How can we possibly take that at face value? While I'm not suggesting Vitiate's mastery is superior or on par, he HAS had 1,400 years to study which makes it very realistic that he COULD be on par.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The simple fact that he did something which I don't think we've ever seen in the mythos, just to knock Vitiate off his feet, should be enough to indicate it.

I'm not sure that's sufficient. Essentially, you're saying that because Revan did that, he needed to do so. Which isn't something that I oppose until you reject the same process here:

[quote]me
Vitiate had to spend moments focusing and channeling his power in order to sweep aside a charging opponent. Likewise, Vitiate had to gather Force energy to him in order to unleash the final burst of lightning that Revan arrogantly tried to deflect bare handed.

[quote]you
Also, there's nothing indicating that vitiate needed to focus and channel his power into one attack. This isn't that other weakling who died at the hands of scourge. There is never any indication that Vitiate has to do that.

Why was Revan's attack out of necessity but Vitiate's wasn't?

Dr McBeefington
Possibly because there's no way to guarantee that the mind domination would be permanent, as opposed to death.

Which goes back to my original point that Vitiate's ability to dominate others clearly isn't perfect or all encompassing; he's limited in what he can do.

Dr McBeefington
Yes, but that was also written before other characters. How can we possibly take that at face value?

Are we to reject canon quotes and sources simply due to the passage of time?

Dr McBeefington
While I'm not suggesting Vitiate's mastery is superior or on par, he HAS had 1,400 years to study which makes it very realistic that he COULD be on par.

Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side could certainly rival or exceed Palpatine's, but I'm unaware of Vitiate's explorations into other aspects of the Force beyond Sith knowledge.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I'm not sure that's sufficient. Essentially, you're saying that because Revan did that, he needed to do so. Which isn't something that I oppose until you reject the same process here:

Why was Revan's attack out of necessity but Vitiate's wasn't?

Which goes back to my original point that Vitiate's ability to dominate others clearly isn't perfect or all encompassing; he's limited in what he can do.

Are we to reject canon quotes and sources simply due to the passage of time?

Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side could certainly rival or exceed Palpatine's, but I'm unaware of Vitiate's explorations into other aspects of the Force beyond Sith knowledge. [/B]

Dr McBeefington
I disagree. What I'm saying is, if Revan had to reach a state that's (probably)never been reached in the SW mythos before, just to knock the guy off his feet and nothing else, then there's not much else he could have done.

Still, you haven't explained why I should accept that Revan's maneuver was one of absolute necessity whereas Vitiate's was not.

Dr McBeefington
Because Vitiate didn't give any indication that he was initially threatened by Revan.

Choosing to spend critical moments gathering your energies in defense as your enemy charges you seems to indicate that Vitiate was threatened to an extent by Revan.

Dr McBeefington
It's possible. But one has to question the logic of his limits if he could do it to 100 sith lords as a 100 year old sith, but not to 9-10 sith lords when he's had 1,300 years to perfect his powers.

Indeed, which is why I question the authenticity of the legend.

Dr McBeefington
No, but we can't take them at face value either. Logically speaking, how can you clam that quote is all encompassing when characters haven't been introduced yet?

Because the quote isn't character conditional. It doesn't say "Palpatine's knowledge of the Force transcends any who came before him." If it did, then I could persuaded to question it more arduously.

Dr McBeefington
Well, he had his essence in various Jedi over the generations before the Galactic War came about. Those Jedi served on the council. It's very likely that his jedi knowledge exceeds that of Palpatine as well. I look at it this way. Vitiate was able to complete his quest for immortality (something never done before or since in the mythos) in 100 years. How much MORESO could he do with 1,300 under his belt. And he had a dark council to run the day to day affairs of the empire precisely SO he could delve into force teachings. While Palpatine gathered as much info as possible in what, 30-40 years at most, Vitiate could have done the same in a millennium. While Sidious could have possibly had the most extensive collection ever recognized, he still was bound by his lifetime to study it. Vitiate had 1,300 years to study the force. Logically speaking, there's more potential for Vitiate to exceed Palpatine's knowledge than anything else, as well as mastery.

Likewise, I look at it conversely: Comparatively, Vitiate was limited to what he had to study: there is, to my knowledge, no account of him ever studying anything beyond the dark side. Palpatine, on the other hand, spent decades as "culmination" of Sith teachings while actively pursuing knowledge and teachings from alternative Force-wielding sects and, unlike Vitiate, was not limited in resources or bound by astrographical constraints. The entire galaxy was his oyster and between the vast resources he collected and his ability to tear knowledge from the minds of others, I see no reason to believe that Vitiate's knowledge of the Force collectively rivals Palpatine's.

The dark side, perhaps. But there's nothing to indicate the breadth of his knowledge comes close to Sidious's. Unless you've been holding out on me.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Still, you haven't explained why I should accept that Revan's maneuver was one of absolute necessity whereas Vitiate's was not.

Choosing to spend critical moments gathering your energies in defense as your enemy charges you seems to indicate that Vitiate was threatened to an extent by Revan.

Indeed, which is why I question the authenticity of the legend.

Because the quote isn't character conditional. It doesn't say "Palpatine's knowledge of the Force transcends any who came before him." If it did, then I could persuaded to question it more arduously.

Likewise, I look at it conversely: Comparatively, Vitiate was limited to what he had to study: there is, to my knowledge, no account of him ever studying anything beyond the dark side. Palpatine, on the other hand, spent decades as "culmination" of Sith teachings while actively pursuing knowledge and teachings from alternative Force-wielding sects and, unlike Vitiate, was not limited in resources or bound by astrographical constraints. The entire galaxy was his oyster and between the vast resources he collected and his ability to tear knowledge from the minds of others, I see no reason to believe that Vitiate's knowledge of the Force collectively rivals Palpatine's.

Dr McBeefington
Because Revan was threatened by Vitiate's power while Vitiate didn't feel threatened by Revan? I would think it was obvious. Both of them knew that they weren't equals and they acted accordingly.

I remain unsure, then, as to why Vitiate would spend crucial moments in two scenarios gathering energy he didn't need. That seems to be counterintuitive to a display of superiority. It would be no different than taking supplement vitamins and doing stretches in order to lift a 10 pound free weight.

Dr McBeefington
That isn't what I interpreted from the beginning of the fight.

Then why gather all that unnecessary energy?

Dr McBeefington
One could argue that because Sidious could somehow mind wipe 2 billion people but couldn't do it to a single jedi, perhaps that feat should be reanalyzed?

Should I direct you to the numerous times I've said in this thread that Sidious's ability to subjugate others is clearly limited?

Dr McBeefington
I think everybody is willing to concede that Palpatine had the most works gathered and was either the most utmost authority on the force, or right up there. I think what CAN be debated is whether or not someone like Vitiate, based on 1,400 years living, could have surpassed Sidious. I'd understand if Vitiate wasn't the brightest tool in the shed or even just remotely intelligent. But Vitiate was a scholar who unlocked immortality in only 100 years. You have to look at what he could have potentially done in the other 1,300.

This has nothing to do with the validity of the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook. Vitiate rivaling Sidious doesn't retroactively eliminate the idea that Sidious mastered most of the known Force powers, etc. and so forth.

Dr McBeefington
Let's put it this way. Sidious' overall knowledge might look superior initially, but Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side could be so far beyond Sidious that their overall knowledge is equal.

If I am a polymath and you're an expert in a particular field, our knowledge isn't equal. Sidious's mastery extends to areas well beyond Sith knowledge; Vitiate potentially knowing more about the dark side doesn't establish parity with Sidious in the realm of knowledge.

Dr McBeefington
Of course I'm willing to concede that Sidious does have the quantity of force knowledge to his advantage because I also don't think that as a Sith sorcerer, Vitiate studied anything but the dark side. But I would definitely argue in favor of his dark side knowledge surpassing Sidious, whether by a little or a lot.

Potentially. Out of curiosity, where is it mentioned about Vitiate's pursuits post-Nathema? I can't find the source.

All I've found are mentions on the official website that he's pursuing 'mysterious goals', there is no mention of his continuous dark side studies.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I remain unsure, then, as to why Vitiate would spend crucial moments in two scenarios gathering energy he didn't need. That seems to be counterintuitive to a display of superiority. It would be no different than taking supplement vitamins and doing stretches in order to lift a 10 pound free weight.

Should I direct you to the numerous times I've said in this thread that Sidious's ability to subjugate others is clearly limited?

This has nothing to do with the validity of the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook. Vitiate rivaling Sidious doesn't retroactively eliminate the idea that Sidious mastered most of the known Force powers, etc. and so forth.

If I am a polymath and you're an expert in a particular field, our knowledge isn't equal. Sidious's mastery extends to areas well beyond Sith knowledge; Vitiate potentially knowing more about the dark side doesn't establish parity with Sidious in the realm of knowledge.

Potentially. Out of curiosity, where is it mentioned about Vitiate's pursuits post-Nathema? I can't find the source.

All I've found are mentions on the official website that he's pursuing 'mysterious goals', there is no mention of his continuous dark side studies. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Again, what makes you think he was gathering energy/strength?

{By the way, I'm using an online copy of Revan. The first quote can be found in the second paragraph of chapter twenty-eight and the second quote can be found in the twelfth paragraph of that same chapter.}

Revan
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.

Revan
His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head. Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Which doesn't account for my example, which falls in line with the "WTF" reasoning as to why Vitiate couldn't do that against 9 sith lords after 1,300 years.

I've repeated ad infinitum that Sidious's ability to manipulate others was clearly limited,

me, page 9
First, Palpatine did use the Force to influence the likes of Yoda and Windu. Second, the manipulations of Byss and Coruscant occurred after he began his two decade study of the Force, which would naturally yield great gains in Force mastery. Third, both manipulations likely required time or at least enormous preparation on Sidious's part.

Without time and preparation and the benefit of extensive study in the Force, it's conceivable that Sidious would face enormous difficulty if not outright impossibility trying to mentally subjugate the likes of Yoda or Windu.

So if you wouldn't mind clarifying as to what your point is comparing Vitiate and Sidious and their abilities to use the Force to mentally subjugate others, I'd be eternally grateful.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Errr I forgot that's what we're talking about. I thought there was a quote pertaining to Sidious' superiority overall.

None, at least, that I've produced in this thread.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So what you're saying is, it's better to know a little about a lot than a lot about a little?

Palpatine mastered this wide breadth of techniques. How does that mean he knows only a little?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It doesn't, nor does it need to. Vitiate was described as a scholar who spent 100 years on Nathema studying the dark side. After the creation of the sith empire, he turned it over to the dark council, suggesting he was to continue pursuit of dark side knowledge.

It depends on the nature of his pursuit and his goals. There's no reason to assume that he's spending his time pursuing every single shred of trivia of the dark side. Plagueis, for example, was concerned with immortality, thus he would have no need to pursue knowledge of techniques that are irrelevant to that search.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
{By the way, I'm using an online copy of Revan. The first quote can be found in the second paragraph of chapter twenty-eight and the second quote can be found in the twelfth paragraph of that same chapter.}

I don't get it. He took the time to gather his strength and power when Revan came into his chambers, but was ineffectual. But then, during the fight, he did it again without having the time to gather his strength, and was more successful?

I've repeated ad infinitum that Sidious's ability to manipulate others was clearly limited,

So if you wouldn't mind clarifying as to what your point is comparing Vitiate and Sidious and their abilities to use the Force to mentally subjugate others, I'd be eternally grateful.

Palpatine mastered this wide breadth of techniques. How does that mean he knows only a little?

It depends on the nature of his pursuit and his goals. There's no reason to assume that he's spending his time pursuing every single shred of trivia of the dark side. Plagueis, for example, was concerned with immortality, thus he would have no need to pursue knowledge of techniques that are irrelevant to that search. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't get it.

I can tell. You're deliberately or unwittingly obfuscating the point at hand, which is that the text emphatically states that Vitiate gathered his powers against Revan to hurl him back telekinetically and then to attack him with the storm of Sith lightning. His other attacks were pedestrian and Revan endured them handily.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My point is it doesn't make sense.

Only if one ignores context.

me, page 9
First, Palpatine did use the Force to influence the likes of Yoda and Windu. Second, the manipulations of Byss and Coruscant occurred after he began his two decade study of the Force, which would naturally yield great gains in Force mastery. Third, both manipulations likely required time or at least enormous preparation on Sidious's part.

Without time and preparation and the benefit of extensive study in the Force, it's conceivable that Sidious would face enormous difficulty if not outright impossibility trying to mentally subjugate the likes of Yoda or Windu.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My point was, Vitiate's ability to do it against 100 sith lords is the most impressive display in the mythos when we talk about subjugation.

Arguably, yes, I'd agree.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What did he master canonically?

The Dark Empire Sourcebook, page 67
With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal,
he gathered the greatest works of knowledge
from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in
all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was
the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the
Tyia. Coupled with perversions of the secrets he
ripped from the living minds of Jedi he captured
during the Purge, he learned more than he ever
expected.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook, page 38
(Palpatine has spent decades studying the most
arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed
that he has mastered nearly all the known powers,
previously unknown powers, and devises new ones
at his pleasure)

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The book explains that Vitiate was a sith scholar who pursued dark side knowledge and sith sorcery. He was also paranoid of death so how much more reason does he need to continue studying? The fact that he gave control of his empire to the dark council should be evidence of that.

He would have no reason to study that which is not relevant or commensurate with his goals. Which is why I ask for a source that elucidates further as to what those goals are or at least a source that says he continued his studies of the dark side.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I can tell. You're deliberately or unwittingly obfuscating the point at hand, which is that the text emphatically states that Vitiate gathered his powers against Revan to hurl him back telekinetically and then to attack him with the storm of Sith lightning. His other attacks were pedestrian and Revan endured them handily.

Only if one ignores context.

He would have no reason to study that which is not relevant or commensurate with his goals. Which is why I ask for a source that elucidates further as to what those goals are or at least a source that says he continued his studies of the dark side. [/B]

Dr McBeefington
because if one doesn't ignore the text, he'd have a hard time explaining why Vitiate had more success not gathering his strength during the fight than gathering his strength before the fight began.

😐

Where did Vitiate have "more success" against Revan by not gathering his strength?

Dr McBeefington
It makes perfect sense if you ignore context.

Advocating the dismissal of context is bizarre, but then so has this whole discussion been for the past several exchanges.

Dr McBeefington
As a scholar who delved into the dark side deeply, there is no reason to assume that immortality was his only goal, or if it even was a goal or just a byproduct of his studies. That he gave over his empire's operations almost immediately after they transformed Kaas City makes it pretty obvious he went out doing his own things. Unless you can speculate more logically on what those things are, I think it's mere logical deduction that he never stopped his sith studies.

I'm going to conclude that you haven't any source to elucidate Vitiate's goals or to describe the studies he initiated to achieve them. That's unfortunate, but please feel inclined to seek them out at your convenience. I'm sure they're out there.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Where did Vitiate have "more success" against Revan by not gathering his strength?

Advocating the dismissal of context is bizarre, but then so has this whole discussion been for the past several exchanges.

I'm going to conclude that you haven't any source to elucidate Vitiate's goals or to describe the studies he initiated to achieve them. That's unfortunate, but please feel inclined to seek them out at your convenience. I'm sure they're out there. [/B]

Ah yes, vintage Gideon. Dismissing the use of logical deduction where it's blatantly obvious while at the same time, taking a Sidious quote at face value. I'll leave it to you to provide a valid argument as to what else our immortal scholar was doing if it wasn't studying the dark side.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
During the fight when Revan threw him on his back twice. He came back and unleashed a force storm.

😐

I provided that segment already, and the Emperor did have to gather his powers:

Revan
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Think you missed the point (not surprising). I was saying anything makes sense if you ignore context, which we shouldn't.

Absolutely bewildering. Just so we're clear, there is no discrepancy between Sidious's manipulations of Byss and Coruscant and his apparent inability to replicate the feat with Windu and Yoda.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ah yes, vintage Gideon. Dismissing the use of logical deduction where it's blatantly obvious while at the same time, taking a Sidious quote at face value. I'll leave it to you to provide a valid argument as to what else our immortal scholar was doing if it wasn't studying the dark side.

I'm confused as to why I should believe that Vitiate 'pursuing his mysterious goals' translates to 'actively and voraciously studying every possible scrap of the dark side ever mwahahaha'.

But I'm willing to be convinced; find the sources at your earliest convenience.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
😐

I provided that segment already, and the Emperor did have to gather his powers:

Absolutely bewildering. Just so we're clear, there is no discrepancy between Sidious's manipulations of Byss and Coruscant and his apparent inability to replicate the feat with Windu and Yoda.

I'm confused as to why I should believe that Vitiate 'pursuing his mysterious goals' translates to 'actively and voraciously studying every possible scrap of the dark side ever mwahahaha'.

But I'm willing to be convinced; find the sources at your earliest convenience. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yea, I got that. It seemed that the Emperor had much more time to do it before than fight than during the fight, yet he was more successful the 2nd time around.

First, you said that Vitiate did not gather his powers the second time but now you're saying you knew that he did? Jokes aside, were you confused or are you lying or trolling?

Second, the success can be attributed to the different nature of the attack. The first salvo was telekinesis, to hurl Revan aside; the second salvo was Force lightning, which is infinitely more debilitating.

Third, where is your basis for concluding a tremendous discrepancy in time?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
:::facepalm::: With ANY jedi. Just so we're clear, you're saying that there's no issue with having the ability to [b]allegedly mind wipe 2 trillion inhabitants, while not being able to do that with 1 jedi? Or a powerful jedi?[/b]

First, your use of the adjective 'allegedly' is inappropriate; the sources I provided regarding his manipulation of Byss and Coruscant are canonical and binding, unless you have reason to argue otherwise.

Second, the powers could be attributed to his deep study in the dark side following the purge of the Jedi order. No one claimed that he possessed the ability prior to Order 66.

Third, Palpatine has used the Force to dominate the minds of Jedi: Galen Marek in The Force Unleashed novelization and Luke Skywalker following their duel on Byss. But as has been reiterated exhaustively, his power is clearly limited.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nobody ever made that claim, but good attempt. The only claim was that he was a scholar, paranoid of death, proficient in sith sorcery, and he had 1,300 years to study the force. While nobody claimed that he did it as voraciously as Sidious, he still had those 1,300 years.

And a millennium of possibly exploring the dark side to an unspecified degree with an unspecified amount of dark side resources at his disposal translates to parity with Sidious how?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No need for sources.

Dr McBeefington, with addendum by ChainOfLove
Ah yes, vintage GideonBeefy.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Logical deduction. If we're going to ignore that just so you could have a better argument, i'll need you to substantiate the Sidious quote with specifics, otherwise chalk it up to hyperbole.

Feel free. Hyperbole and demands substantiation can be directed at Vitiate as well, which is one of the overall points I was trying to get at. And given that there's so much less going for Vitiate than Sidious by way of sources, feats, quotes, etc. I'm not alarmed by this at all.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Either way, unless you have a good argument that would negate logical deduction, i'll take that as your concession in this specific matter.

When you can provide an argument as to how Vitiate's possible studies in the entirety of the dark side translates to parity with Sidious, you'll get your concession.