DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
First, you said that Vitiate did not gather his powers the second time but now you're saying you knew that he did? Jokes aside, were you confused or are you lying or trolling?

Third, where is your basis for concluding a tremendous discrepancy in time?

First, your use of the adjective 'allegedly' is inappropriate; the sources I provided regarding his manipulation of Byss and Coruscant are canonical and binding, unless you have reason to argue otherwise.

Second, the powers could be attributed to his deep study in the dark side following the purge of the Jedi order. No one claimed that he possessed the ability prior to Order 66.

And a millennium of possibly exploring the dark side to an unspecified degree with an unspecified amount of dark side resources at his disposal translates to parity with Sidious how?

Feel free. Hyperbole and demands substantiation can be directed at Vitiate as well, which is one of the overall points I was trying to get at. And given that there's so much less going for Vitiate than Sidious by way of sources, feats, quotes, etc. I'm not alarmed by this at all.

When you can provide an argument as to how Vitiate's possible studies in the entirety of the dark side translates to parity with Sidious, you'll get your concession. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No, I'm saying I re-read the quote.

Excellent.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I didn't say tremendous.

You said "much more time" to be precise.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But Vitiate seemed to sit there waiting for Revan when he entered his chambers. That seems like more time than during a fight sequence.

Vitiate was not known to begin channeling his powers until Revan charged him. Between this and the fact that it was a lull in the fight that afforded Vitiate a second chance to gather his energies, I still see no evidence of a notable time disparity.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall him mind wiping leia or luke, or any of the jedi after Order 66.

He didn't, to my knowledge. Of course the alternative is that it could have been a giant illusion rather than an outright alteration of memory.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
1. 1,300 years.
2. The guy was a scholar who spent 100 years on his planet studying the dark side. He didn't participate in anything other than studying for 100 years. No GHW nothing. But suddenly, we should believe that he was doing something else for 1,300 years?

I'm not suggesting that Vitiate didn't study afterwards; I'm suggesting that there's nothing to indicate he continued his studies of the dark side as a totality and instead may have tailored his studies to suit his specific goals, as Plagueis did with the pursuit of immortality.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Except the Sidious quote can be chalked up to hyperbole if I was doing what you're doing with Vitiate. There's no direct quotes linking Vitiate to intense study, other than logical deduction and the fact that he spent 100 years doing it. Either way, you can ignore it or accept it, doesn't matter.

And as I said, you can deem the quote about Sidious as hyperbole to your heart's desire. The fact remains that there is more substantiation for that quote-- which provides examples of the sorts of things Sidious studied-- than there is for the quotes about Vitiate, to say nothing of the vast disparity in sources that mention Sidious's studies versus Vitiate's.

What I'm trying to say is that I have an advantage in the fact that Sidious is an infinitely more important and influential member of the Star Wars canon than the freshly-minted Vitiate, who has little exposure. I can casually use sources like cannon-fodder, hence my lack of a problem with your dismissal of them as hyperbole.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall claiming anything than Vitiate's possible superiority over Sidious in dark side mastery. Should I paste you the past 2 pages?

That won't be necessary, especially from the guy who admits to having to reread quotes in order to obtain their meaning rather than merely slowing down. You needn't be so hasty. Chill and read the words for they are.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
1. 1,300 years.
2. The guy was a scholar who spent 100 years on his planet studying the dark side. He didn't participate in anything other than studying for 100 years. No GHW nothing. But suddenly, we should believe that he was doing something else for 1,300 years?

You're assuming that he had constant material to study in those 1,300 years. It doesn't matter if he had 1,300 years to study if he only had a fraction worth of that in reading material. And you're assuming that the amount he had would not be eclipsed by the extra 4,000 years of advancement in Sith Lore as well as that of every other typer of Force cult out there.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I'm not suggesting that Vitiate didn't study afterwards; I'm suggesting that there's nothing to indicate he continued his studies of the dark side as a totality and instead may have tailored his studies to suit his specific goals, as Plagueis did with the pursuit of immortality.

And as I said, you can deem the quote about Sidious as hyperbole to your heart's desire. The fact remains that there is more substantiation for that quote-- which provides examples of the sorts of things Sidious studied-- than there is for the quotes about Vitiate, to say nothing of the vast disparity in sources that mention Sidious's studies versus Vitiate's.

That won't be necessary, especially from the guy who admits to having to reread quotes in order to obtain their meaning rather than merely slowing down. You needn't be so hasty. Chill and read the words for they are. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The book makes it clear that he was studying the dark side, as an all encompassing project. Why would that change once he became immortal? Or perhaps he gave control of his empire to the dark council because he wanted to play video games?

Or maybe he was rebuilding the Sith Empire.

Nah, that would just be dumb. mmm

You're assuming that he had constant material to study in those 1,300 years. It doesn't matter if he had 1,300 years to study if he only had a fraction worth of that in reading material. And you're assuming that the amount he had would not be eclipsed by the extra 4,000 years of advancement in Sith Lore as well as that of every other typer of Force cult out there.

1. He apparently had constant material for 100 years.
2. The sith on Dromund Kaas during the Cold War spent their lives studying the Dark Temple, which was built 1,000+ years prior.
3. Vitiate employed scientists to find the location of Dromund Kaas, which had been lost for what, a few hundred years if not a millennium? Logic suggests he had adequate sources at his disposal.

Or maybe he was rebuilding the Sith Empire.

Nah, that would just be dumb.

Yea, that's why he created the dark council and tasked them with the day to day affairs of the sith empire. Swing and a miss DE, I suggest you leave this to the big boys.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The book makes it clear that he was studying the dark side, as an all encompassing project.

Quote and page number?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The problem is, you can dissect Palpatine's quote in terms of quantity of powers. You can't make a reasonable argument for Vitiate in terms of him not continuing the study of the dark side after he became immortal. If anything, I would think his intensity level increased.

Where is the evidence that he continued to study the dark side holistically?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
From someone who has trouble with reading comprehension (but has someone point it out to him rather than admitting it), you should ask me to re-paste the past two pages for you in which I only made one claim (dark side superiority), where you also acknowledged said claim could very well be possible.

Considering the number of concessions you've made to me in this discussion versus the number I've made to you and the fact that you openly admit to having to reread a simple passage to understand its meaning, I'm not sure why you're so desperate to get into another cockfight.

Cool your easily aroused temper and read slower rather than place your stubborn pride on display for the internet to see.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure why we're having discussion about overall force knowledge.

Because you claimed Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side would afford him "overall knowledge" equal to Sidious's broader efforts to study the Force. I can provide the quote if need be. I have no problem believing Vitiate's dark side knowledge is on par or potentially in excess of Sidious's if you can provide a source indicating he continued his holistic dark side studies post-Nathema.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Quote and page number?
Page 155

His position as ruler of Nathema officially recognized, Lord Vitiate returned to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side's power. He stayed there for 100 years.

[quote]Where is the evidence that he continued to study the dark side holistically?

Considering the number of concessions you've made to me in this discussion versus the number I've made to you and the fact that you openly admit to having to reread a simple passage to understand its meaning, I'm not sure why you're so desperate to get into another cockfight.

Cool your easily aroused temper and read slower rather than place your stubborn pride on display for the internet to see.

Because you claimed Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side would afford him "overall knowledge" equal to Sidious's broader efforts to study the Force. I can provide the quote if need be. I have no problem believing Vitiate's dark side knowledge is on par or potentially in excess of Sidious's if you can provide a source indicating he continued his holistic dark side studies post-Nathema. [/B]

Dr McBeefington
Page 155

I have that one. Do you have one for his post-Nathema efforts?

Dr McBeefington
1. Scholar

A scholarly disposition doesn't imply a holistic study of the dark side, particularly when he is being motivated by specific goals. Again, Plagueis isn't out studying, say, the metaphysical effects of Force lightning to obtain his specific goals-- because combat is irrelevant to those goals.

Dr McBeefington
2. Paranoid of death.

He already achieved his immortality.

Dr McBeefington
3. Studied for 100 years without meddling in sith affairs. The question is, does any evidence exist that he did something other than study?

I didn't claim Vitiate didn't study. This will be the last time I repeat that.

Dr McBeefington
Considering I've made one concession, maybe 2,

I count four in this thread.

Dr McBeefington
Oh the irony of this statement. If you weren't so angry, you'd have admitted defeat a while ago in certain aspects of this argument.

My volcanic anger is currently preventing me from recalling these aspects. Would you take care to remind me one more time?

Dr McBeefington
No, I said that his mastery of the dark side could be well beyond Sidious as to give him equal footing in overall mastery, but I quickly realized this error and conceded that Sidious most likely has overall superiority.

Yes, that's what I thought. I accept your concession.

Dr McBeefington
The fact that you want a direct quote in some situations while settling for logical deduction in others tells me you're ready to concede this point and move on.

Or it could be a wish that you fulfill your burden and provide these quotes.

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I have that one. Do you have one for his post-Nathema efforts?

A scholarly disposition doesn't imply a holistic study of the dark side, particularly when he is being motivated by specific goals. Again, Plagueis isn't out studying, say, the metaphysical effects of Force lightning to obtain his specific goals-- because combat is irrelevant to those goals.

He already achieved his immortality.

My volcanic anger is currently preventing me from recalling these aspects. Would you take care to remind me one more time?

Or it could be a wish that you fulfill your burden and provide these quotes. [/B]

I've already proven my case by deducing Vitiate's continued study habits. You've yet to prove what else he would be doing. Again, I accept your concession here. Let's move on.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No,

I see, I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Sure, you're now trying to argue that Sidious was the superior in overall knowledge when that point was conceded almost instantly,

Me
I see, I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Let's move on.

I'm afraid we'll have to, since you can't find the quotes I need. Do you have any argument suggesting that Vitiate can defeat Sidious or has this thread run its course?

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
I see, I accept your concession.

I'm afraid we'll have to, since you can't find the quotes I need. Do you have any argument suggesting that Vitiate can defeat Sidious or has this thread run its course?

I've already accepted your concession. Your parroting is quite lovely but your argument is dead in the water in regards to the aspects mentioned repeatedly. I never once said that he could defeat DE Sidious, other than he has shown superior mental capacities. Whether or not that helps him isn't something that can be argued. The fact that he doesn't use a lightsaber already means he's not winning that battle. Now, since you won't accept defeat (as is often the case when you're defeated), we can move on. It's been fun, we should do this again sometime. 😂

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I've already accepted your concession.

Nah, too late. You conceded first (and second, and third, and fourth lol), I win. hahahahahahaha 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I never once said that he could defeat DE Sidious,

Hence why I asked rather than accused.

Proven the possibility of Vitiate's dark side superiority over Sidious? Check

Proven your inability to read while criticizing others about it? Check

Proven your rampant homosexuality on multiple occasions? Check

Looks like another good day on KMC. 😂

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Nah, too late. You conceded first (and second, and third, and fourth lol), I win. hahahahahahaha 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
1. He apparently had constant material for 100 years.
2. The sith on Dromund Kaas during the Cold War spent their lives studying the Dark Temple, which was built 1,000+ years prior.
3. Vitiate employed scientists to find the location of Dromund Kaas, which had been lost for what, a few hundred years if not a millennium? Logic suggests he had adequate sources at his disposal.

1. Apparantly being the key word. Unless Nyriss was there with him, how does she know what he did all those years?

2. Explain to me what this means. By Cold War are you refering to the strained peace between the Republic and Empire in the TOR era? Because 1000 years before then Vitiate was already on Dromund Kaas.

3. Does it now? How does it being lost mean it had a shit-ton of holocrons etc on it? Or that Vitiate personally found anything there?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yea, that's why he created the dark council and tasked them with the day to day affairs of the sith empire. Swing and a miss DE, I suggest you leave this to the big boys.

Lol, simply because a ruler deligates does not mean that he takes no place in any proceedings. Even deligating the day to day affairs of the Empire to the council, the sheer size of the Empire would mean that he would be extremely busy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Apparantly being the key word. Unless Nyriss was there with him, how does she know what he did all those years?

2. Explain to me what this means. By Cold War are you refering to the strained peace between the Republic and Empire in the TOR era? Because 1000 years before then Vitiate was already on Dromund Kaas.

3. Does it now? How does it being lost mean it had a !@#$%^&*-ton of holocrons etc on it? Or that Vitiate personally found anything there?

Lol, simply because a ruler deligates does not mean that he takes no place in any proceedings. Even deligating the day to day affairs of the Empire to the council, the sheer size of the Empire would mean that he would be extremely busy. [/B]

Originally posted by ChainOfLove
Nah, too late. You conceded first (and second, and third, and fourth lol), I win. hahahahahahaha 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Labyrinth of Evil pg. 203
"You're about to make an unscheduled appearance on the HoloNet, Chancellor," Grievous said. "I apologize for not providing a mirror, hairbrush, and cosmetics, so that you might at least camouflage some of your fear."

Palpatine's voice was sinister when he spoke. "You can display me, but I won't speak."

Grievous nodded at what seemed an obvious statement. "I'll display you, but you won't speak. Is that understood?"

"You will do all the talking."

"That's correct. I will do all the talking."

"Very good." For no apparent reason, Grievous felt uncertain. "Lord Tyranus will soon be here to take charge of you."

Palpatine smiled without showing his teeth. "Then I am assured of being greatly entertained."

Looks like a mind trick nothing more.