DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Stealth Moose
At no point is the Emperor truly afraid of losing,

While I agree that Vitiate doesn't cower in terror at the sight of the enemies arrayed against him, the text notes that the presence of Surik alone is sufficient to make him uncomfortable after she intervenes:

Revan
Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

The text also identifies the moment Scourge betrays and kills Surik as an opportunity Vitiate "needed" to exploit:

Revan
Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.

Dr McBeefington
I personally think Revan got a little cocky trying to block Vitiate's force storm with his hands..

Especially when one considers the fact that Revan had a perfectly able lightsaber in his possession with which he deflected previous attacks with minimal difficulty.

Stealth Moose
Meetra, the same Jedi who has trained under Kreia, fought Nihilus and Sion, called Revan the "strongest Force user [she] had ever known".

It certainly makes one ponder the nebulous nature of Nihilus's abilities, in addition to appreciating Revan's talent.

Originally posted by Resonate
While I agree that Vitiate doesn't cower in terror at the sight of the enemies arrayed against him, the text notes that the presence of Surik alone is sufficient to make him uncomfortable after she intervenes:

He hesitates and re-evaluates the two Force users approaching. I think stretching that into "uncomfortable" or as M.Yoda did "shitting one's pants" is just that - stretching it. Vitiate is a very methodical being, and Meetra's gamble to save Revan genuinely surprised him. He's been surrounded by Sith for 1l plus years, so there's that too.

The text also identifies the moment Scourge betrays and kills Surik as an opportunity Vitiate "needed" to exploit:

Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan's head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi's chest.

I think you're reading too heavily into the word choice and less into the context. It's already demonstrated that Vitiate is more than a match for Revan at this point, and Meetra is inferior to Revan. Scourge is at best a match for Meetra, but none of them has a snowball's chance in hell against the Emperor unless they exploit brilliant teamwork.

And none of that mattered because at this stage, Scourge has already betrayed them.

Especially when one considers the fact that Revan had a perfectly able lightsaber in his possession with which he deflected previous attacks with minimal difficulty.

Actually, Revan explicitly notes that this attack is different, that the Emperor is building up energy instead of simply spamming lightning. That makes all the difference. Non-charged up lightning from the Emperor stopped Revan dead in his charge, even when deflected, but powered up in a few seconds turned into a storm which utterly defeated the Jedi.

It certainly makes one ponder the nebulous nature of Nihilus's abilities, in addition to appreciating Revan's talent.

Well, on paper Nihilus is ridiculously strong. If Meetra thinks Revan is stronger, that either implies that Revan IS stronger (which seems unlikely, since he hasn't demonstrated Force Drain or TK on the same scale) or she doesn't consider Nihilus in the same category since he's a wound, like some sort of force of nature.

Stealth Moose
He hesitates and re-evaluates the two Force users approaching. I think stretching that into "uncomfortable" or as M.Yoda did "shitting one's pants" is just that - stretching it. Vitiate is a very methodical being, and Meetra's gamble to save Revan genuinely surprised him. He's been surrounded by Sith for 1l plus years, so there's that too.

Certainly Mizukage's interpretation is a stretch, but I'm not sure how mine is. The text ascribes 'uncertainty' as one of the adjectives to describe Vitiate's conduct upon being confronted by Surik, which consequently speaks to a faltering confidence. Despite Vitiate's millennium of experience and purported power, her presence is sufficient to make him hesitate. I'm not suggesting that that implies parity between them, only that he did react in a manner suggesting mild concern when facing her.

Stealth Moose
I think you're reading too heavily into the word choice and less into the context. It's already demonstrated that Vitiate is more than a match for Revan at this point, and Meetra is inferior to Revan. Scourge is at best a match for Meetra, but none of them has a snowball's chance in hell against the Emperor unless they exploit brilliant teamwork.

Considering context would require one to recall that Revan handled himself quite well against Vitiate unaided, putting him on his ass twice and deflecting or avoiding outright his pedestrian lightning. As McBeefington mentioned, some of Revan's defeat can be attributed to gross arrogance: rather than utilize his lightsaber, he attempted to manhandle his opponents conjured lightning barehanded. Context would also require one to consider the fact that both times that Vitiate felled Revan were because Revan allowed him time to harness and channel his energies (per the text), first by the reckless charge and then by the reckless pause. Thus I'd submit that context would require one to amend the statement that none of them stood a chance in hell against Vitiate, unless one refers to Surik and Scourge alone, which is still conjecture.

Stealth Moose
Actually, Revan explicitly notes that this attack is different, that the Emperor is building up energy instead of simply spamming lightning. That makes all the difference. Non-charged up lightning from the Emperor stopped Revan dead in his charge, even when deflected, but powered up in a few seconds turned into a storm which utterly defeated the Jedi.

I agree that it makes all the difference. Revan's mistake was allowing his enemy to twice harness his energies rather than press the attack; when that wasn't the case, Vitiate failed completely to overwhelm Revan.

Stealth Moose
Well, on paper Nihilus is ridiculously strong. If Meetra thinks Revan is stronger, that either implies that Revan IS stronger (which seems unlikely, since he hasn't demonstrated Force Drain or TK on the same scale) or she doesn't consider Nihilus in the same category since he's a wound, like some sort of force of nature.

Or more likely, this is the result when an author who is prone to gratuitous character-wanking fails to take the works of others into consideration. (Zahn, I'm looking at you.)

Considering context would require one to recall that Revan handled himself quite well against Vitiate unaided

If by "quite well" you mean Revan had to be an avatar of equal parts dark/light side (never before seen in the mythos), then you are correct.

Dr McBeefington
If by "quite well" you mean Revan had to be an avatar of equal parts dark/light side (never before seen in the mythos), then you are correct.

The word avatar is never used in the description and for good reason: it's inaccurate. More precisely, Revan became a conduit of light and dark energy and released it without harnessing its potency.

I'm honestly undecided.

Who's knowledge was greater?

Vitiate had knowledge of the ancient Sith Lords themselves - perhaps the greatest source of Dark Side knowledge. A source lost to Bane, knowledge which DE Sidious could only piece together from centuries of excavation across countless and innumerable star systems to come to a total understanding after his death gave him time to make sense of it all. Sidious' knowledge perhaps rivaled Vitiate's when combined with the knowledge gained from Revan, Bane, and the millennia of increasingly deadly Sith Lords after him who had adhered to the Rule of Two.

Both Sidious and Vitiate were innately prodigious, Sidious was older when he started, yet he was still miraculously gifted given the limitations of his Force potential. The incredible things Vitiate did as a child prodigy could be attributed to his Force potential moreso than Palpatine's, whose abilities were more from his intellectual capability, whereas Vitiate's was more the result of his Dark Sith Blood. The result was that they both learned quicker than Anakin and even Luke - the most prodigious Jedi of all.

In the end, Palpatine gained a greater understanding of the Dark Side, and was more corrupted by it - on the basis that I can't see Vitiate summoning Great Rifts in space-time by tapping the Netherworld of the Dark Side, yet I can see Sidious performing the ritual of Nathema to increase his power and lifespan to nearly inexhaustible levels.

Sidious FTW.

P.S.

They both contain two incomplete chunks of esoteric Dark Side knowledge vast beyond imagining. If pieced together in the capable hands of a megalomaniac Force sensitive like Palpatine was, it could create a being capable of threatening The Ones and the galaxy more existentially than Abeloth herself.

Originally posted by Dolos
I'm honestly undecided.

Who's knowledge was greater?

Vitiate had knowledge of the ancient Sith Lords themselves - perhaps the greatest source of Dark Side knowledge. A source lost to Bane, knowledge which DE Sidious could only piece together from centuries of excavation across countless and innumerable star systems to come to a total understanding after his death gave him time to make sense of it all. Sidious' knowledge perhaps rivaled Vitiate's when combined with the knowledge gained from Revan, Bane, and the millennia of increasingly deadly Sith Lords after him who had adhered to the Rule of Two.

Both Sidious and Vitiate were innately prodigious, Sidious was older when he started, yet he was still miraculously gifted given the limitations of his Force potential. The incredible things Vitiate did as a child prodigy could be attributed to his Force potential moreso than Palpatine's, whose abilities were more from his intellectual capability, whereas Vitiate's was more the result of his Dark Sith Blood. The result was that they both learned quicker than Anakin and even Luke - the most prodigious Jedi of all.

In the end, Palpatine gained a greater understanding of the Dark Side, and was more corrupted by it - on the basis that I can't see Vitiate summoning Great Rifts in space-time by tapping the Netherworld of the Dark Side, yet I can see Sidious performing the ritual of Nathema to increase his power and lifespan to nearly inexhaustible levels.

Sidious FTW.

P.S.

They both contain two incomplete chunks of esoteric Dark Side knowledge vast beyond imagining. If pieced together in the capable hands of a megalomaniac Force sensitive like Palpatine was, it could create a being capable of threatening The Ones and the galaxy more existentially than Abeloth herself.

"In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side." (SWTORE)

"Should he succeed in his plans, the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history." (SWTORE)

Some information here: http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/the-emperors-plan-knight/324/

Sith Emperor had lot of time under his disposal to study the dark side and he eventually reached a point at which he could annihilate the entire galaxy after adequate preparation of-course; no other dark side practitioner in the known history of Star Wars posed this much threat to the galaxy itself; not even Abeloth.

With GL out of the picture and new content continuously pouring in to Star Wars mythos, we are left with subjective preferences in debates like these.

From neutral perspective, both Sidious and Vitiate are impressive in their own right in the grand picture. Both honed their talents in different manner; their preferences being influenced by their surroundings and circumstances. Both were extraordinarily powerful in the Force. Sidious is relatively much more explored character whereas much of the Vitiate's capabilities are shrouded in mystery and/or yet to be explored. However, Vitiate's story is panning out in more promising and exciting fashion and logic dictates that Vitiate became nearly reached the pinnacle of dark side practitioners but was stopped with combination of multitude of factors/forces working against him after his true nature came to light.

Vitiate likely had greater knowledge of the Dark Side given the length of time he had to study, that he was a notable scholar and was known to seclude himself from his Empire in favor of his studies. Even in TOR we learn that he chooses to plum the Voss for their secrets.

However, that does assume that he had an unlimited knowledge base to continually learn from. Its possible that despite having 1300 years to study, that he only had the materials to allow for a much shorter period of study. Sidious may be greater given that he could have access to greater resources across the galaxy and millennia more build up of knowledge to find. However given that Vitiate spent a looot of his time studying, I find it unlikely that he ran out of material, or he would have devoted his time to other things.

However, that does assume that he had an unlimited knowledge base to continually learn from. Its possible that despite having 1300 years to study, that he only had the materials to allow for a much shorter period of study.

More than likely, most of his study is independent study, done on his own. He wasn't in old sith territory, meaning he wasn't looking into the works of other sith.

Sidious is RoT, meaning that there's basically been 1,000 years of various researchers doing their own research and building on top of each other, as well as searching out Sith knowledge from the galaxy (like Andeddu's holocron, which was found relatively recently).

S_W_LeGenD
However, Vitiate's story is panning out in more promising and exciting fashion

Nephthys
Vitiate likely had greater knowledge of the Dark Side given the length of time he had to study, that he was a notable scholar and was known to seclude himself from his Empire in favor of his studies. Even in TOR we learn that he chooses to plum the Voss for their secrets.

However, that does assume that he had an unlimited knowledge base to continually learn from. Its possible that despite having 1300 years to study, that he only had the materials to allow for a much shorter period of study. Sidious may be greater given that he could have access to greater resources across the galaxy and millennia more build up of knowledge to find. However given that Vitiate spent a looot of his time studying, I find it unlikely that he ran out of material, or he would have devoted his time to other things.

That Vitiate had ~20x longer than Sidious to study the Force and consumed scores of Sith Lords along the way and can only said to be probably more masterful in the dark side is embarrassing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That Vitiate had ~20x longer than Sidious to study the Force and consumed scores of Sith Lords along the way and can only said to be probably more masterful in the dark side is embarrassing.

He did demonstrate more ritual knowledge at bare minimum.

And that's the advantage of coming from a later era- A scientist today can learn in five years things scientist spent a lifetime to learn a hundred years ago.

The later you are, the more you can pick up from studying earlier work. Probably how Krayt figured out self-resurrection when Plageius, Sidious, and Vader didn't.

Not really, as theres little that can conceivably prove such a thing. It all comes down to probability in the end.

Edit: ^^^ And yet theres also the fact that a great deal of darkside knowledge is lost over the years. The passage of time doesn't necessarily lead to progress.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, as theres little that can conceivably prove such a thing. It all comes down to probability in the end.

Yes really. Vitiate consumed the energy of [dozens/hundreds/thousands] of Sith Lords and had better than 14 lifetimes to study the Force... and instead of outclassing Sidious, only rivals him. In what way is that not laughable?

In much the same way Yoda had, what, 20x the lifespan of Luke and Sidious and yet both outclass him in power and Force Mastery?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In much the same way Yoda had, what, 20x the lifespan of Luke and Sidious and yet both outclass him in power and Force Mastery?

I do believe you were the one who argued that there's no proof Yoda voraciously consumed other Force usersForce knowledge, that the dark side is a quicker path to power, aaaand Yoda only had ten times Sidious's lifespan.

Face it, bro: Vitiate is a joke and you really can't defend his alarming lack of progress. 😬

I very much can......

....not. Because theres so little known about his abilities or knowledge in the Force that its pointless to argue with such little to go on. 😬

Hey, I'm not saying he's not powerful. I'm saying that, given the time and resources he had to become powerful, he's a grade-A wimp.

So you're saying because Vitiate had over a thousand years to study and that makes him marginally better than Sidious, or equal, he's a grade A wimp? If I'm understanding your logic correctly, what does that make Sidious in comparison to Luke, losing a saber battle (regardless of the help Leia gave him)?

Originally posted by steveholt953
So you're saying because Vitiate had over a thousand years to study and that makes him marginally better than Sidious, or equal, he's a grade A wimp? If I'm understanding your logic correctly, what does that make Sidious in comparison to Luke, losing a saber battle (regardless of the help Leia gave him)?

That's not comparable... unless you're conceding that Sidious as a natural Force user eclipses Vitiate as Luke eclipses him.

Why is it not comparable? It's your logic I'm disputing, and it follows your logic to some extent. If force user X has so much time to study yet is only marginally better than force user Y, user force X is a wimp. Extreme circumstances (son of the chosen one) aside, the logic follows.