DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't limit him to mediocrity among the greats. You can be 'one of' the strongest and still be 'the' strongest. The HoT has little in terms of source-backing, yet his/her actions speak for themselves. There nothing 'minor' about fighting through Kaas City and the Imperial Gaurd (the codex mentions that the Imperial Gaurd are the best trained, most elite force in the galaxy) and then defeated a Sith of Vitiates calibre in a darkside nexus.

I think that their is some kind of misunderstanding/confusion about relative strength of HoT within the Order.

"One of the strongest padawans the Jedi have seen for generations races into peril when a surprise attack by savage native warriors nearly devastates the Order on Tython" (SWTORE)

This statement is valid for just "padawan incarnation" of HoT.

In the big picture, HoT seems like another Luke Skywalker in the making.

Thanks for the clarity on that quote.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for the clarity on that quote.

B/W I learned something new about Vitiate's capabilities recently from Bioware forums; he is capable of one-shotting HoT with one of his powers during their second confrontation. 😎

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This might help:

"In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side." (SWTORE)

"Should he succeed in his plans, the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history." (SWTORE)

Some information here: http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/the-emperors-plan-knight/324/

Sith Emperor had lot of time under his disposal to study the dark side and he eventually reached a point at which he could annihilate the entire [B]galaxy after adequate preparation of-course; no other dark side practitioner in the known history of Star Wars posed this much threat to the galaxy itself; not even Abeloth.

With GL out of the picture and new content continuously pouring in to Star Wars mythos, we are left with subjective preferences in debates like these.

From neutral perspective, both Sidious and Vitiate are impressive in their own right in the grand picture. Both honed their talents in different manner; their preferences being influenced by their surroundings and circumstances. Both were extraordinarily powerful in the Force. Sidious is relatively much more explored character whereas much of the Vitiate's capabilities are shrouded in mystery and/or yet to be explored. However, Vitiate's story is panning out in more promising and exciting fashion and logic dictates that Vitiate became nearly reached the pinnacle of dark side practitioners but was stopped with combination of multitude of factors/forces working against him after his true nature came to light. [/B]

Vitiate's strength was in alchemy. He had far more time to study the Dark Side than Sidious. His esoteric knowledge was superior to all other Sith Lords, which is perhaps his most miraculous feat of all.

However, Sidious' superiority lies within his pragmatism, and his ability to create monsters that he can exploit. In the Book of Sith he has explained that he knows the weaknesses of all beings he's manipulated through the dark side.

Vitiate's alchemic skills and knowledge are inferior to the likes of Plagues in certain areas. Plagues bridged science and magic to manipulate the midi-chlorians to the results similar (immortality) to the feats performed by Vitiate through rituals. Luke explains in that same book that Plagues fails perhaps because he'd not achieved a certain level of oneness with the living Force's dark persona.

Sidious saw that he could not match Plagues in that aspect, and if Plagues would fail to turn the Dark Side into a science, he should take only elements.

Whereas Vitiate failed because he underestimated the Jedi, and where the Sith before him failed because they could not overpower the entire Jedi and Republic, and where his master failed for believing he could make it a simple empirical science, Sidious succeeded for being practical, for wanting results, for being more clever, calculating, and more aware than any of them.

Sidious was the smartest, he would find a weakness in Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nicely put.

I think that their is some kind of misunderstanding/confusion about relative strength of HoT within the Order.

"One of the strongest [B]padawans the Jedi have seen for generations races into peril when a surprise attack by savage native warriors nearly devastates the Order on Tython" (SWTORE)

This statement is valid for just "padawan incarnation" of HoT.

In the big picture, HoT seems like another Luke Skywalker in the making. [/B]

He defeated a weakened Emperor, whose powers were scattered in preperation for a ritual.

Much like Sidious' powers during his second battle with Luke Skywalker. In preparation for summoning the Force storm, his powers waned, and he relied on his cunning and lightsaber skills, which were not enough. When cut off from his storm, it took a mind of its own, and devoured his Capital Ship.

Not sure how making monsters makes Sidious superior to Vitiate in Alchemy. Did you forget that Vitiate used alchemy to make his Wrath immortal?

Originally posted by steveholt953
Not sure how making monsters makes Sidious superior to Vitiate in Alchemy. Did you forget that Vitiate used alchemy to make his Wrath immortal?

I never said he was superior in alchemy because of his creations. I used the example of him creating weaknesses in them. When Vitiate was threatened, he just threw them into the Dark Temple. Sidious kept tabs on all the Jedi, knew their strengths and weaknesses, likewise with his creations.

With all Vitiate's power he's still inferior to the likes of Darth Nihilus per Force Drain, as he is not a wound like Nihilus. Yet Nihilus' weakness was that he could not Force Drain Meetra, another such Wound, and he needed Visas to see Force sensitive worlds, but his bond with her was also a great weakness.

Sidious is proven more clever than Vitiate, and would devise a clever rouse. That's what being a Sith is about.

With prep, Sidious wins.

Without prep, Vitiate wins.

Plus Vitiate never conquered the galaxy. He went into hiding, manipulated Revan and Malek, created several wars, all so he could have his ritual. Which never suceeded on the scale the Palpatine suceeded.

As far as powers and abilities, Plagues' ultimatum would see him with as much power as Vitiate, except without destroying anything at all. That is perhaps why the dark side rejected him.

Sidious' ultimatum would be to create life and have virtually unlimited power through the generations of Skywalkers that would be his Sovereign 'Emperor Wraths' (Skywalker children). He would create life and be immortal through that life.

They were all capable of virtually the same power levels because they had the same end-goal, and each had their unique talents that dwarfed all other Sith. However, Sidious was by far the most likely to succeed. Yet not even he could succeed.

Originally posted by Dolos
I never said he was superior in alchemy because of his creations. I used the example of him creating weaknesses in them. When Vitiate was threatened, he just threw them into the Dark Temple. Sidious kept tabs on all the Jedi, knew their strengths and weaknesses, likewise with his creations.

With all Vitiate's power he's still inferior to the likes of Darth Nihilus per Force Drain, as he is not a wound like Nihilus. Yet Nihilus' weakness was that he could not Force Drain Meetra, another such Wound, and he needed Visas to see Force sensitive worlds, but his bond with her was also a great weakness.

Sidious is proven more clever than Vitiate, and would devise a clever rouse. That's what being a Sith is about.

Plus Vitiate never conquered the galaxy. He went into hiding, manipulated Revan and Malek, created several wars, all so he could have his ritual. Which never suceeded on the scale the Palpatine suceeded.

As far as powers and abilities, Plagues' ultimatum would see him with as much power as Vitiate, except without destroying anything at all. That is perhaps why the dark side rejected him.

Sidious' ultimatum would be to create life and have virtually unlimited power through the generations of Skywalkers that would be his Sovereign 'Emperor Wraths' (Skywalker children). He would create life and be immortal through that life.

They were all capable of virtually the same power levels because they had the same end-goal, and each had their unique talents that dwarfed all other Sith. However, Sidious was by far the most likely to succeed. Yet not even he could succeed. [/B]

DE Sidious wins. He calls a force storm and stomps.

Is it just me,(new to this website) or are KOTOR force users severely overrated by some people here?

Originally posted by GM Skywalker
DE Sidious wins. He calls a force storm and stomps.

Is it just me,(new to this website) or are KOTOR force users severely overrated by some people here?

That said, welcome!

Originally posted by GM Skywalker
DE Sidious wins. He calls a force storm and stomps.

1. Wouldn't it be risky to call upon such a deadly power in close combat situations? What if Sidious gets caught in it too?

2. Even the deadly Force Storm cannot exterminate immortal individuals; Vitiate will loose his physical body but his essence will remain and he is dangerous even in the latter form. Depending upon the setting, Vitiate (in essence state) may still try to harm Sidious by using the surroundings against him.

3. Vitiate also packs devastating powers/surprises. In one of his confrontations, he purged an entire Dark Council with a single blast of power. Should he get the opportunity to use such power against Sidious, the former may one-shot the latter too. Not sure if the essence can survive this mystery power; assuming that Sidious does survives as an essence after such an attack, he will be virtually ineffective and logically defeated because he is not dangerous in this form.

Originally posted by GM Skywalker
Is it just me,(new to this website) or are KOTOR force users severely overrated by some people here?

B/W Welcome to this forum.

Nah. I'd say overrated are KOTOR era and Bane era characters.

Underrated are guys like Dooku, Vader, Caedus and Krayt.

S_W_LeGenD
I credit SWTORE for reshaping my POV about Vitiate's story; this book is a masterpiece in the context of creativity.

The encyclopedia is a compendium of extant work, it does not create a narrative so much as compiles a narrative already created. The encyclopedia is superb because of the breadth of its information, but a masterpiece of creativity it is not.

S_W_LeGenD
Of-course, Vitiate's story is not without its share of shortcomings; some aspects of it are badly written, IMO.

Sidious's story is also great until the DE part. I like GL's depiction of Sidious; intelligent (evil-genius); powerful; manipulative; mysterious.

I submit that the overwhelming majority of Vitiate's "story" qualifies as badly-written shortcoming. I've mentioned before that there is a world of difference between a clever, tasteful homage and a flat out rip-off.

The first KotOR game is replete with such things: Revan serves as an allusion to Anakin and Thrawn; Malak to Vader and Tarkin; Bastila to Padme/Leia, the Sith to the Empire, the Republic to the rebels, T3 to Artoo, etc. But it dared to chart new territory as well and when it did, it triumphed: HK-47, anyone?

The idea of an enigmatic Sith Emperor had potential. An Orwellian Big Brother Sith god manufactured by the Dark Council would have been a brilliant concept: deconstructing the overplayed Big Bad, Evil Overlord trope that has consumed the franchise ever since Sidious appeared in '83. Instead, intellectually lazy and creatively bankrupt writers played it straight, read The Dark Empire Sourcebook & hoped no one would notice, and petulantly attempted to one-up an infinitely more iconic villain.

And to make that even worse, they couldn't deliver the goods they promised! Just as Abeloth was advertised to be this unstoppable dark side juggernaut and turned out to be little more than a persistent hemorrhoid, the allegedly brilliant and all-powerful Vitiate had 14 centuries to achieve unparalleled gains.

Sidious topped him in terms of political and military accomplishments in 4 decades. And that's not even comparing their respective mystical enterprises. facepalm

He's powerful, no doubt, but when one tabulates the advantages at his disposal? He's a loser in the extreme.

To be fair, Sidious had a thousand years worth of preparation and resources from the Rule of Two. It wasn't just the fruits of 4 decades.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be fair, Sidious had a thousand years worth of preparation and resources from the Rule of Two. It wasn't just the fruits of 4 decades.

Elaborate.

Well as early as Bane the Sith established a wealth of contacts and resources, and began to seek out and horde Force knowledge. IIRC you mentioned that Plagueis had a huge library that rivaled the Jedi's? And didn't Palpatine have a lot of help from Plagueis, who was still alive and kicking up to TMP?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well as early as Bane the Sith established a wealth of contacts and resources, and began to seek out and horde Force knowledge. IIRC you mentioned that Plagueis had a huge library that rivaled the Jedi's? And didn't Palpatine have a lot of help from Plagueis, who was still alive and kicking up to TMP?

Oh, you're referring to Force knowledge? Certainly neither Vitiate nor Sidious started from scratch and made every possible use of extant Sith arcana as a foundation for their experiments. But even then, Vitiate had considerable advantages with respect to study of the dark side compared to Sidious that did not result in correspondingly high fruits of labor.

Politically, if Palpatine and Plagueis exceed Vitiate and millions of Sith and 1.4 millennium, that's only an indictment of the latter's competence.

No, I'm not just referring to Force knowledge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm not just referring to Force knowledge.

Vitiate comes off looking like a buffoon (in comparison) either way, though. He had the same advantages (secrecy, wealth, networks, extant lore) and some unique to him (a hidden empire, unparalleled longevity, loyalty of [thousands? millions?] of Sith Lords).

The work of Sidious's predecessors are, by and large, ill-defined. In fact, we know that at critical points, they exacerbated the Sith imperative through tactical errors (Tenebrous's Master's attempt to manufacture a midi-chlorian targeted virus), laziness (Vectivus's reign), and sabotage (Gravid's attempted annihilation of the archives).

That Sidious accomplishes more during his relatively paltry reign against Vitiate is embarrassing... and an unintended demonstration of Vitiate's inadequacy as both a character and a Sith Lord.

You're not going to needle me into a defensive posture with this. I don't really care. And I don't see it as a failing. They simply attempted different approaches. Vitiate with open warfare and Sidious through secrecy. Vitiates was simply more time and resource consuming, seeing as he had to build his Empire from scratch more or less. Plus Vitiate himself didn't ever engage in the conflict and didn't care about it.