Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Or the luckiest?If Anakin had not intervened, Mace would have killed him. Yes, credit still goes to Sidious for seducing Anakin to the dark side; an accomplishment that would reshape Galactic events. However, his greatest accomplishment is that he transformed the Republic into a Sith Empire from within. As far as the Jedi Order is concerned, he came close to exterminating the Jedi but wasn't the only one to accomplish this task in history.
Both (Darth) Revan and Vitiate were Sith masterminds and would have conquered the Republic (even through external means) if not felled by betrayals. The history of Sith is plagued with betrayals unfortunately.
Anakin being there does not change anything. He'd lose either way to Sidious' lightning. He bend Mace Windu's lightsaber blade back toward Mace's face despite Mace's huge amplification of power and submersion in Vaapad.
This is him not even using Force Lightning to his full extent.
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Originally posted by Dolos
If Sidious were to be inside a Skywalker, the one keeping what little balance there was between the light side's aperion and the dark side's aperion after the Dark Times; the dark side's superiority would be assured, and thus it would compensate with the FULL profit that employed Sidious to its service in the first place
Vitiate also created an imbalance in the Force and it was natural for the Force to retaliate by strengthening the light side.
Originally posted by Dolos
Except, unlike Vitiate annihilating everyone, allowing the light side refuge until he could rebuild and perhaps spread the dark side elsewhere (other galaxies); Sidious would be in a better position as he could do so without rebuilding a massive magocratic Imperial Force of nature, as he'd already have it at his disposal.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your anxiety is palpable. Accept Vitiate's inferiority and move on. The guy is a carbon copy of Darth Sidious anyway, which probably irks you more than it does me. To know that your favorite era's most dominating figure was made in the image not of Revan... But Darth Sidious. 😂
I am not concerned with superiority or inferiority of any character in this thread; my intent is to call a spade a spade. People should know the facts about both characters; not fan-made theories.
In a fight, both can reduce each other to essence form and live happily ever after. Oh wait! Vitiate is dangerous even in essence form.... mystery continues and fans continue to love...
Palpatine himself is a Force nexus.
The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.
--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes
Vader can take Vitiate in a straight up fight as well.
Identified as the most powerful Jedi up until this point.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
As a demonstration for students, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba attack Yoda, and without even being armed, Yoda evades their blows.
She had attended a lecture about battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.
--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Identified as the most powerful Jedi up until this point.
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
As a demonstration for students, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba attack Yoda, and without even being armed, Yoda evades their blows.She had attended a lecture about battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
But so does HoT.
It's not Yoda talking to himself nor of any character describing this. That's a line meant to taken as is.
Koon can slash apart droids in the span of the utterance of three words, Tiin can deflect numerous blaster bolts while forming a shield out of his lightsaber blade, and Depa can produce several afterimages of her lightsaber.
Yoda and Darth Sidious combat one another, again showing impressive speed described as a "tornado," and Yoda shows that he can react fast enough to deflect blows from Palpatine, who can move his lightsaber too fast for Anakin, who can perceive and react to ships flying at sublight speeds, to see.
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them. But he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Yoda's proficiency with a lightsaber is stated to be unequaled.
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.
--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force
Nick Gillard, who worked under Lucas to handle lightsaber combat for the movies, states that Yoda is the best duelist in the Order (5:28 to 5:35).
Sidious' power upsets the balance of the Force on the dark side world of Vjun and causes a weather storm merely by the emergence of a holographic image of himself.
Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest. Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, ecognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet. "You called, my Master?"
The hologrammic projector on his desk sprang to life, and the wavering form of Darth Sidious regarded him. As always the picture was oozy and unclear, as if light itself were uneasy in the presence of the Lord of the Sith. Dark robes, purple shadows—a patch of skin, pale and mottled under his hooded cloak like a fungus growing under a rotten log. From under heavy lids the Master's eyes, snake-cold and serpent-wise, regarded him.
"What would you have of me, Master?"
"From you? Everything, of course." Darth Sidious sounded amused. "There was a time when I wasn't sure if you would be able to overcome that...independent streak of yours. After all, you were born to one of the wealthiest families in the galaxy, with gifts and abilities far, far greater than any amount of wealth could bestow. Your understanding is deep; your will, adamant. Is it any wonder you should be proud? Why, how could it be otherwise?"
Dooku said, "I have always served you well and faithfully, my Master."
"You have. But you must admit, your spirit was not made for fidelity. After all, a man who will not bow to the Jedi Council, or even Master Yoda...I wondered if perhaps loyalty was too mean, too confining a thing to ask from so great a being as yourself."
Dooku tried to smile. "The war progresses well. Our plans are on schedule. I have dealt out your deaths, your schemes, your betrayals. I have paid for your war with my time, my riches, my friends, and my honor."
"Holding nothing back?" Sidious asked lightly.
"Nothing. I swear it."
"Excellent," Darth Sidious said. "Yoda came to the Chancellor's office this morning. He is going on a very special mission. Top secret." He laughed, a harsh sound like the bark of a crow. The wind rose again, shrieking around the mansion like a creature in torment. "When he arrives, Dooku...see that you treat him as he deserves."
Darth Sidious laughed. Dooku wanted to laugh along, but couldn't quite manage it before his Master cut the connection and disappeared.
Dooku paced his office. With the end of Sidious' call, the storm had slackened, and the shrieking wind outside now only sobbed quietly under the gables of Château Malreaux.
--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Yoda and Darth Sidious combat one another, again showing impressive speed described as a "tornado," and Yoda shows that he can react fast enough to deflect blows from Palpatine, who can move his lightsaber too fast for Anakin, who can perceive and react to ships flying at sublight speeds, to see.
This part doesn't make much sense. It's implying Sidious's Saber moves faster than ships flying sub-light, because Anakin can perceive them but not Sidious's Saber.
Firstly Anakin couldn't see his Saber properly with his eyes, doesn't mean he couldn't perceive it in the Force.
Secondly it's probably non-canon as that never happened in the movie.
Thirdly no Jedi or Sith moves faster than star ships, light or sub-light.
It's pretty retarded, Neph and SW Legend, to claim that Force draining a planet is more impressive than unleashing a dimension of dark side energies to create a perpetual vortex the size of stellar size that increases ad infinitum by virtue of releasing greater and greater amounts of aperion...capable of spreading across all of space and into multiple time-streams like the dark staff, and then STOPPING such a storm in spirit form before it grows too strong.
So;Potential = anima
Mastery = pneuma
And aperion is the almighty Force.
Sidious' pneuma was greater than it was supposed to be after essence draining Byss's inhabitants. That's unnatural pneuma, that surpasses what his midi-chlorians would be capable of naturally, as one's pneuma transcends it's anima.
Having direct access to aperion energy is better than either. Sourcing aperion can't be topped by mastery or potential. Apropos, Force storms - being replenished of Force energy when attacks by Yoda, having his Force energy increased upon using Force lightning to the extent of bending a lightsaber blade in the capable hands of a Jedi who was recognized as the greatest duelist in history, while he was simultaneously amped by the dark side through Vapaad; in Empire's End, killing Jedi with pure arcs of energy reminiscent to a cross between incantations such as Bolt of Hatred and Spirit Ichor.
Less influence over the dark side?
Yes.
Vitiate ultimately relied on a technique to siphon the longevity and Force energy of one world (possibly consisting of a pool smaller than that of Byss's increasing population in which Palpatine consumed) to increase his unnaturally increase his lifespan and personal Force reservoir as well as to corrupt Jedi and dominate their minds (though TOH and Revan (neither of whom possessed the potential of Anakin or Luke, beings Palpatine could influence) proved resilient to the effects of the wound Vitiate had become).
Whereas, for a thousand years, the dark side's aperion had been growing in strength, embodying only one Sith Lord at a time, until it reached Sidious - so Sidious at that point possessed the powers of Plagueis on top of his own, who himself possessed the cumulative powers of many generations of Sith Lords dating back the Darth Bane as of Dynasty of Evil...and continued to offset the balance between light and dark by increasing the dark side's aperion to unprecedented levels, and embodying all of it whereas Vitiate shared his with an entire Sith Council.
By DE the Dark Emperor was leagues above the Sith Emperor in power, while Vitiate would have gotten a larger boost in power than Sidious if and only if, he'd succeeded in draining the galaxy. In which case it's assumed he'd be strong enough to create midi-chlorians and build a new civilization of super Force sensitive humanoids (reminiscent of Son and Daughter, the esoteric creations of the Force Wielding Celestial Father).
Yet, he still wouldn't be as powerful (energy wise) as Palpatine's Force storm could have been had he not stopped it. That thing was the dark side's truest incarnation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your anxiety is palpable. Accept Vitiate's inferiority and move on. The guy is a carbon copy of Darth Sidious anyway, which probably irks you more than it does me. To know that your favorite era's most dominating figure was made in the image not of Revan... But Darth Sidious. 😂
BAAH! It's more than metaphorical!
I've already explained how Rule of Two offers the total aperion of the dark side solely to the one who's in charge exclusively with Rule of Two, as experienced by Bane, and by Plagueis after killing Tenebrous, and by Sidious after killing Plagues, but not be any other dark sider in the galaxy. All Vitiate gets is being a nexus from Force drain like so many other Sith before him. He did NOT possess as much physical power. He WOULD HAVE had he succeeded.
Not only that, but Sidious demonstrated every Sith technique Vitiate did. Even Plagueis had awareness of every Sith technique ever on written accounts...by SIDIOUS!? The Galactic Sith Emperor Darth Sidious raided the Jedi Temple for everything, collected far more than that from all over the galaxy, had the Night Sisters, had Plagueis's empirical data on midi-chlorian manipulation on hard copy. Sidious had everything.
In the six years after his first death, however, he studied it in detailed and not only did he master everything Vitiate mastered and then some, but mastered new things beyond anything ever done.
Let's recount his displays of Sith Alchemy, Sorcery, Magic, Incantation, shall we SW LEGEND!!!???
Force drain
Essence transfer
Chrysallids (Sith Spawn)
Bestow Power (Increasing Force sensitivity in others)
Mind domination/control
BoltofHatred-esque incantations in the form of arcs of energy
Dark Side Wormhole
To name a very few, name something Vitiate or any other Sith has done beyond that and Sidious has probably demonstrated that technique as well, save midi-chlorian manipulation, which he actually did in the ritual that created Anakin Skywalker.
Originally posted by Dolos
It's pretty retarded, Neph and SW Legend, to claim that Force draininga planetthe galaxy is more impressive than unleashing a dimension of dark side energies to create a perpetual vortex the size of stellar size that increases ad infinitum by virtue of releasing greater and greater amounts of aperion...capable of spreading across all of space and into multiple time-streams like the dark staff, and then STOPPING such a storm in spirit form before it grows too strong.
Fixed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Fixed.
Both you and SW Legend must falsely believe Vitiate is Force draining more than just sentient individuals. You can't Force drain an object, whether it's a nexus of Force energy or not. That's never happened. Sidious could have pulled together a ritual just as lethal as Vitiate's, or the one he had planned.
And yet the storms Palpatine created actually consumed star fleets and the actual surfaces of entire worlds, the ones he controlled. Acting beyond his control, on it's own volition, a Dark Side Wormhole could have continued to grow and spawn smaller storms, which themselves would grow, eventually consuming and annihilating endless planets and stars, at some point resulting to destroying the galaxies themselves, not just their denizens like Force drain.
And yet you still think one ancient technique is more impressive than the newest and most devastating one of all.
The one the Dark Emperor carried out on Byss was more almost as powerful as the one the Sith Emperor performed on Mediraas, except as Galactic Emperor and final recipient of the power of a millennium of Sith Masters, and the entire Jedi Order and everything else good in the galaxy, the power of the dark side in its entirety, at it's peak (the dark times) - my argument is that in a straight battle Palpatine would simply overpower Vitiate with stronger Sith attacks.
Vitiate never bent a lightsaber blade, and by DE Palpatine had grown much stronger than that.