DE Sidious vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by The Merchant
Wait, when did the force storm reach multiple time-streams?

It would have according to an author's statement, it was a threat to all time and space. Sidious 66's post referenced the direct quote.

Anyway, we've seen the Dark Staff cause entire star systems to disappear into other time streams, it's not beyond reason to assert that a dark side worm hole the size of many star systems hole would collapse into another time stream, after spawning many miniature vortexes of dark side energy that would ultimately themselves grow to such colossal sizes.

Originally posted by Dolos
Both you and SW Legend must falsely believe Vitiate is Force draining more than just sentient individuals. You can't Force drain an object, whether it's a nexus of Force energy or not. That's never happened. Sidious could have pulled together a ritual just as lethal as Vitiate's, or the one he had planned.

You mean, except for when Vitiate drained sound and color from the planet Nathema. awepedo

Also considering Kiffar can use the force to read the memories of an object, I wouldn't be so sure. mmm

Palpatine's greatest feat is fighting with the Force itself, an entity stated to be the whole damned Galaxy.
Also keep in mind that Palpatine was only defeated by a combined effort of Luke Leia and the force itself

He manipulated them into thinking they'd gain a massive amount of power from the ritual, and that took quite some time to complete. Sacrifices needed, and yet Nihilus did it on his own.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Palpatine's greatest feat is fighting with the Force itself, an entity stated to be the whole damned Galaxy.
Also keep in mind that Palpatine was only defeated by a combined effort of Luke Leia and the force itself

He could have effortlessly killed them both with Force Lightning and TK.

He wanted to corrupt Luke for real, by making him distraught by the devestation of his fleet. Also, Palpatine yet again was too hubris for his own good. His overconfidence in his lightsaber savvy against Luke's cost him that duel. Leia's powers still wouldn't have influenced Luke's pneuma to grant him greater Force speed than a being more powerful in the Force than Vitiate, even if half of his attention was on controlling the Force storm during that duel, to think his speed could allow him to just troll Luke with half his concentration was a little overly guile.

So was thinking he could outclass 4 Jedi masters in a lightsaber duel, one of which was the greatest lightsaber duelist ever in the mythos...yet would have crumpled under the power of Sidious' lightning and TK.

How long did it take Luke to surpass Sidious? NJO Luke?

Originally posted by The Merchant
How long did it take Luke to surpass Sidious? NJO Luke?

Never.

No midi-chlorian count can make up for Force drain. And the dark side grants more power to the Sith Master than it does the Grand Jedi Master because there are less of them in Rule of Two.

The Jedi must take a natural approach, the Sith have no limits.

Originally posted by Dolos
Never.

No midi-chlorian count can make up for Force drain. And the dark side grants more power to the Sith Master than it does the Grand Jedi Master because there are less of them in Rule of Two.

The Jedi must take a natural approach, the Sith have no limits.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sith are more powerful in general. However, Jedi can reach state of Oneness, which gives far greater power than darkside.

There are levels of Oneness for Jedi or Sith or others. ROT allows greater Oneness. Bane had the greatest Oneness after destroying the Sith Order, but was passed by leaps and bounds by Sidious after destroying the Jedi Order and forming the first legit Sith-ruled Galactic Empire of such a scale.

NJO has examples of Jedi achieving levels of Oneness that were less extreme, and more temporary, as does TOR, except with the Sith Lord Malgus.

The thing is, Sith are ALWAYS destroyed in the end, as is the Republic. The greatest Jedi and Sith are temporary masters and champions.

The difference is how these beings stay permanently, Jedi merge with the Force, and it is a pleasant process, Sith merge with the Force in Chaos, and it is no pleasant experience. Sith can retain their consciousness, tied to the material world by objects, trying to cling to life outside Chaos, Jedi can retain their consciousness for a time to appear to others in the same way, but their afterlife is still pleasant when they leave.

Sith have no restrictions, Jedi do.

Sith, with ample sophistication, can become as powerful as they want. They can become Pre-retconned Beyonder because the Force is omnipotent, and Sith have their little machinations to gain more of it than they were meant to have.

It has roots in philosophy, achieving unnatural eventualities throws off balance and order, which causes nature to fight back - and in this sense, continuing to progress in such a way makes one increasingly miserable and increasingly challenged by nature.

It just so happens Sidious was too weak to get to defy nature eternal by eternally transcending his intrinsic limitations. Such is the dilemma the Sith have always had. Weakness. Every being has it, decreasing it is an act of fear, that first act is a defiance of nature.

However, my philosophy in real life is that order or 'nature' is created by the conscious mind, other consciousnesses influence one, and one influences others in a cycle - throwing off balance in this sense is defying another individual's perspective. That is how this aspect of Star Wars philosophy is truthful.

Hmm, kinda disagree with that. The Light is the Force at its purest, uncorrupted and can naturally be grown and accustomed, while the Dark side, despite giving you faster access to power, eventually corrupts itself and ends up destroying the user. Even if Sidious managed to take over Skywalker I have no doubts in my mind he eventually would no longer be able to contain his power and then end up destroying himself and chances are the Galaxy itself.

Picture it like a bottle of pressure. Sidious is the bottle, the Dark side pressure. Eventually he will have a limit and boom, the darkside devours him and probably everything else surrounding him. Even his spirit would probably be devoured. The only draw back with the Light is that it takes forever to achieve those kind of levels.

Originally posted by Dolos
There are levels of Oneness for Jedi or Sith or others. ROT allows greater Oneness. Bane had the greatest Oneness after destroying the Sith Order, but was passed by leaps and bounds by Sidious after destroying the Jedi Order and forming the first legit Sith-ruled Galactic Empire of such a scale.

NJO has examples of Jedi achieving levels of Oneness that were less extreme, and more temporary, as does TOR, except with the Sith Lord Malgus.

The thing is, Sith are ALWAYS destroyed in the end, as is the Republic. The greatest Jedi and Sith are temporary masters and champions.

The difference is how these beings stay permanently, Jedi merge with the Force, and it is a pleasant process, Sith merge with the Force in Chaos, and it is no pleasant experience. Sith can retain their consciousness, tied to the material world by objects, trying to cling to life outside Chaos, Jedi can retain their consciousness for a time to appear to others in the same way, but their afterlife is still pleasant when they leave.

Wrong. Sith cannot experience oneness whatever level. They abuse the Force, they cannot experience unity with the Force as it is only an instrument for them.

The closest is probably when Malgus became one.... with the darkside.

Palpatine wins in spirit form vs spirit form as well.

Originally posted by Dolos
SThey can become Pre-retconned Beyonder because the Force is omnipotent

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. Sith cannot experience oneness whatever level. They abuse the Force, they cannot experience unity with the Force as it is only an instrument for them.

Wrong.

Malgus experienced it after killing a Grand Master of the Jedi Order. Plagueis felt a surge of power a little while after killing Tenebrous. Sidious felt a larger surge of power immediately after killing Plagueis.

Unity with the Force can entail either the light side or dark side. Pure good or pure evil.

The Sith are altogether stronger, they get stronger faster, they get stronger more easily, and ultimately two [Sith] are just as formidable as an entire order [Jedi].

Originally posted by Dolos
Wrong.

Malgus experienced it after killing a Grand Master of the Jedi Order. Plagueis felt a surge of power a little while after killing Tenebrous. Sidious felt a larger surge of power immediately after killing Plagueis.

Unity with the Force can entail either the light side or dark side. Pure good or pure evil.

The Sith are altogether stronger, they get stronger faster, they get stronger more easily, and ultimately two [Sith] are just as formidable as an entire order [Jedi].

The Force itself has no light nor dark. Lightside and darkside is determined by emotions of a user.

However, the Force has a will. Jedi trust the will of the Force keeping the balance, while Sith abuse and distort it. Sith cannot experience Oneness because they do not surrender to the Force.

At no point in the book Malgus experienced oneness. Towards the end of the book he became more powerful by killing his girlfriend, which amplified his anger levels and made him an ultimate Sith but it has nothing to do with oneness with the Force.

Just a little comparison:

Malgus:
"NIGHT, and controlled rage, wrapped Malgus. His anger smoldered always now, and his thoughts mirrored the caliginous air.
...
Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage. He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it. He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer. He served the Force and only the Force, and his understanding of it increased daily.

The growing power whirling around him, leaking through the lid of his control, made the suppression of his Force signature impossible. All at once he lowered all of the mental barriers, let the full force of his power roil around him.
...
Malgus felt the hate pouring off Adraas, the power, but it paled in comparison to the rage and hate roiling in Malgus. In his mind’s eye, he saw Eleena’s face as she died. It poured fuel on the flames of his rage."

Anakin Solo:
"Anakin opened himself to the Force completely, drawing it into himself through the power of his emotions - not through his anger or fear like a Dark Jedi, but through his love for his family and his fellow Jedi Knights, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future. The Force poured in from all sides, filling him with a swirling maelstrom of power and purpose, saturating him and devouring him. There was nothing to be frightened of, no reason to grieve. He could feel it flowing into him and himself flowing into it. Anakin was the Force, and the Force was Anakin.

Anakin rose. His body emitted a faint aura of light - the glow of his cells burning out - and the air crackled around him. His injuries no longer pained him. He was acutely aware of everything in the grashal - the musty smell of the droning thud bugs, the sultry heat rising from the planting bins, the huffing breath of his fellow Jedi, even the Yuuzhan Vong. Their presence was as distinct to him as that of his own companions, almost as though the Force had somehow expanded to include them.
...
It no longer hurt to speak, but his aura had gone from faint to bright. His cells were burning like fire. "Jacen, you're in charge. Take everyone and go after her."
...
A plasma ball roared through the grashal door and set fire to a twenty-meter swath of cloning vines. Anakin charged back toward the melted membrane, miniature forks of lightning dancing off his arms and legs, the Force swirling through him like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. He was completely filled with the strength of the light side now; his injured body could hold no more. The energy was burning its way out of him, consuming a vessel too weakened to contain it."

Indeed, as Nephtys pointed out Malgus seems to be closest among the Sith to experience Oneness. He even felt it like surrendering to the Force. Yet, it still pales in comparison to any Jedi that experienced Oneness. Anakin as example was literally burning out.

Originally posted by Arhael
The Force itself has no light nor dark. Lightside and darkside is determined by emotions of a user.

However, the Force has a will. Jedi trust the will of the Force keeping the balance, while Sith abuse and distort it. Sith cannot experience Oneness because they do not surrender to the Force.

At no point in the book Malgus experienced oneness. Towards the end of the book he became more powerful by killing his girlfriend, which amplified his anger levels and made him an ultimate Sith but it has nothing to do with oneness with the Force.

Just a little comparison:

Malgus:
"NIGHT, and controlled rage, wrapped Malgus. His anger smoldered always now, and his thoughts mirrored the caliginous air.
...
Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage. He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it. He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer. He served the Force and only the Force, and his understanding of it increased daily.

The growing power whirling around him, leaking through the lid of his control, made the suppression of his Force signature impossible. All at once he lowered all of the mental barriers, let the full force of his power roil around him.
...
Malgus felt the hate pouring off Adraas, the power, but it paled in comparison to the rage and hate roiling in Malgus. In his mind’s eye, he saw Eleena’s face as she died. It poured fuel on the flames of his rage."

Anakin Solo:
"Anakin opened himself to the Force completely, drawing it into himself through the power of his emotions - not through his anger or fear like a Dark Jedi, but through his love for his family and his fellow Jedi Knights, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future. The Force poured in from all sides, filling him with a swirling maelstrom of power and purpose, saturating him and devouring him. There was nothing to be frightened of, no reason to grieve. He could feel it flowing into him and himself flowing into it. Anakin was the Force, and the Force was Anakin.

Anakin rose. His body emitted a faint aura of light - the glow of his cells burning out - and the air crackled around him. His injuries no longer pained him. He was acutely aware of everything in the grashal - the musty smell of the droning thud bugs, the sultry heat rising from the planting bins, the huffing breath of his fellow Jedi, even the Yuuzhan Vong. Their presence was as distinct to him as that of his own companions, almost as though the Force had somehow expanded to include them.
...
It no longer hurt to speak, but his aura had gone from faint to bright. His cells were burning like fire. "Jacen, you're in charge. Take everyone and go after her."
...
A plasma ball roared through the grashal door and set fire to a twenty-meter swath of cloning vines. Anakin charged back toward the melted membrane, miniature forks of lightning dancing off his arms and legs, the Force swirling through him like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. He was completely filled with the strength of the light side now; his injured body could hold no more. The energy was burning its way out of him, consuming a vessel too weakened to contain it."

Indeed, as Nephtys pointed out Malgus seems to be closest among the Sith to experience Oneness. He even felt it like surrendering to the Force. Yet, it still pales in comparison to any Jedi that experienced Oneness. Anakin as example was literally burning out.

I still think the dark side opens more pathways. A Jedi can only stay One with the Force while in the material world for a temporary time, unless they're a Force conception like Anakin Skywalker their time on this world will be ate up far too quickly.

I think the dark side has more options for power, force draining a galaxy via ritual, mastering the midi-chlorian within oneself to sustain a oneness. A Sith may achieve it all at once, the power and immortality, if the Sith has absorbed trillions of Force sensitives and saturated the galaxy in a lifeless void, one big crippling blow the Force. Or through an eternity of mastering midi-chlorian manipulation, to the point where a Sith may become invulnerable to damage, Force attacks, able to take life effortlessly by commanding the midi-chlorians to fleet their host.

Originally posted by Dolos
I still think the dark side opens more pathways. A Jedi can only stay One with the Force while in the material world for a temporary time, unless they're a Force conception like Anakin Skywalker their time on this world will be ate up far too quickly.

I think the dark side has more options for power, force draining a galaxy via ritual, mastering the midi-chlorian within oneself to sustain a oneness. A Sith may achieve it all at once, the power and immortality, if the Sith has absorbed trillions of Force sensitives and saturated the galaxy in a lifeless void, one big crippling blow the Force. Or through an eternity of mastering midi-chlorian manipulation, to the point where a Sith may become invulnerable to damage, Force attacks, able to take life effortlessly by commanding the midi-chlorians to fleet their host.

An example from Luke vs Abeloth:
"Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin- cells literally bursting with the power of the Force-and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor."

Abeloth was far more powerful than Luke. But, when she attempted to consume him, he was able to fight back. Abeloth was consistently more powerful but in that specific fight Luke managed to reach such a state that he started glowing. Rare experience but demonstrates that in rare circumstances Jedi reach greater power than any darksider.

Okay, Vitiate can put up a fair fight against ROTS Sidious, but DE Sidious? This is ridiculous. This is a different story.