Is that TJ? He's back! The most powerful beings were put on the dark council. The exceptions were Darth Malgus and Baras.
I just have to say that I never support Legend's positions because although he tries, his arguments are pretty far fetched to say the least. With that being said, Lightsnake's arguments are absurd beyond comprehension. He is now saying that Arden Lynn is more impressive because she survived for 25,000 years, than the 1,400 year old immortal empire. Yes, that is not a typo.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I know the definition. I'll try and dumb it down for you. I said something about him lacking combat prowess while you claimed I called him an "untalented fool". Lost that one quick.
Yeah, you pretty much belittled his abilities, which makes my statements valid
None of which equates to combat. Drop this point already.
Having incredible force powers doesn't equate to combat [b]in a force battle?
Not sure why you're still stuck on this title nonsense when I've repeated stated that those titles are earned in the true sith empire and the dark council is incredibly powerful.Other than Marek, none of these have shown "titanic" powers.
Palpatine doesn't throw out titles like candy.
You don't have rank or status in Palpatine's Dark Side Corps unless you earn in. Every member of the Emperor's Hands earned his or her title. You think a position like "Dark Side Elite" is for fun and games? The seven most powerful of Palpatine's servants?
Source=
I love how you intentionally play dumb when you've lost an argument. Flynn was what, in stasis for 25,00 years because some Jedi stopped her heart? You're comparing this to Vitiate who has lived for 1,000 years? Idiotic doesn' begin to describe it.
Flynn was what now?
You and Nai always ascribed to this "The older=better" silliness. I see when confronted with this example, the narrative shifts.
You're welcome to post quotes or descriptions rather telling me to "look it up", or drop the point altogether.
have a copy of SWgamer 5?
Not sure what this is even referring to, other than a poor attempt to play down their power.
For the millionth time, what is the exact quote.?
In second and third books of The Lando Calrissian Adventures, numerous references are made to a "deadly green light" which Gepta used to destroy the Order of Tund, (after learning its secrets), as well as turn the entire planet Tund into a "sterile ball". Finally, in the third-to-last chapter of Lando Calrissian and The Starcave of ThonBoka, we see the full power of this destructive agent:
He raised a hand, as if in a magician's gesture. Outside, from one of the ungainly projections of the hull of the Wennis, there was a faint, fast squirt of brilliant life. Instantly it streaked toward a cluster of gigantic Oswaft who, since ceasing to fight, had been watching and listening. Sen and Fey were among them.
As the light point reached them, they began glowing a pale, sickly green and disappeared without a trace before their dying screams had faded. Whatever the weapon was, it could discriminate between real organic beings and the phony outlines Lando had taught them to create. Those remained like ghosts, hollow and insubstantial.
"That my dear Captain Calrissian, was a demonstration employing one times ten to the minus seventeenth of the power available to me. "
And also, on the Electromagnetic torpedo:
The electromagnetic torpedo was a container for Rokur Gepta's most powerful Force technique, which was one of the strongest powers of the dark side. It was the greatest achievement of any of the Sorcerers of Tund.
Quote please. Then I can dissect your vague notion at "feeding off planets."
Exactly how many Alderaanian survivors took Palpatine up on his "offer and moved to Byss is unknown. What is certain is that it may have been better for them to have died in the disaster, considering what really happened to those hopefuls who came to the Deep Core stronghold. Many were simply rendered mindless slaves, going about their lives in a deadened bliss while Sidious and his Dark Side confidants fed from the energies of Byss and its inhabitants."
No, my point is the only darths were dark lords of the sith and members of the dark council, meaning they're the most powerful in the empire. A fact you continue to ignore.
Yes, she has some kickass force storm ability which already puts her ahead of those two in the combat department.
Sedriss summoned enough in terms of force storm to match and obliterate Ood Bnar.
Nothing Nayriss ever does even begins to compare to Cronal making an ancient Sith Spirit his *****, either.
Nothing suggests either one of those can stand up to her. I'm sure dominating a 7,000 year old sith spirit gives Cronal a gold star and nothing else.
Which proves my point. They have no sith teaching. They lack the broad sith techniques that the dark lords all have because they're generic dark side users.
In addition, we know his Acolytes could utilize life drain on Byss's inhabitants. We know that there were accomplished Sith Sorcerers like Cronal in Palpatine's ranks. Hell, Cronal 's official title amongst the acolytes was 'Palpatine's Monster Maker' for his talent with Sith Alchemy.
Palpatine also pressed all the old Sith cults like the Prophets and Sun Guards into his order. Orders that were started by Sith and still had their teachings and some of their powers.
Or Thaum Rystra, one of the Dark Side adepts whose teacher was a trapped Sith spirit?
Keep the strawman going.Show me the carfax, then relate his "power" to combat feats. I'm sure he was very powerful but would get put on his ass in a combat situation with someone who has combat prowess.
Okay, I'm not sure how to make it clearer: Kadann is said to have avoided combat out of distaste for it, despite his immense power. Only four force users, at his peak, were greater than him. And again, skilled use in force lightning is more than most of the councillors have
Yea, they've shown power beyond these dark side adepts so unless you have ANY kind of evidence that they're even on par with these darths, you lose.. Again. [/B]
But no, the new guys just suck next to the old and aren't fit to kiss their boots, apparently
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you pretty much belittled his abilities, which makes my statements valid
Good one. Certain words were bolded for irrelevance. You'll have to excuse me if I ignore this feat because the tree lacks any kind of relevant combat prowess.
You responded with this:
Ah, so I see that Ood Bnar is suddenly an untalented fool now?
Having incredible force powers doesn't equate to combat in a force battle?
Did you even read Shadows of Mindor? Or anything with Jerec in it?
Palpatine doesn't throw out titles like candy.
You don't have rank or status in Palpatine's Dark Side Corps unless you earn in. Every member of the Emperor's Hands earned his or her title. You think a position like "Dark Side Elite" is for fun and games? The seven most powerful of Palpatine's servants?
The Lando Calrissian trilogy
You and Nai always ascribed to this "The older=better" silliness. I see when confronted with this example, the narrative shifts.
I don't have to downplay anything, the comics do it for me. Are you going to deny in Fall of the Sith Empire, they failed to take Kirrek that was undefended by all but two force sensitives? Or Cinnagar, defended by FOUR?
One of Naga Sadow's top Sith Lords even appears in Crosscurrent and y'know what? He wasn't really any stronger than some of the masters on Luke's council.
He raised a hand, as if in a magician's gesture. Outside, from one of the ungainly projections of the hull of the Wennis, there was a faint, fast squirt of brilliant life. Instantly it streaked toward a cluster of gigantic Oswaft who, since ceasing to fight, had been watching and listening. Sen and Fey were among them.As the light point reached them, they began glowing a pale, sickly green and disappeared without a trace before their dying screams had faded. Whatever the weapon was, it could discriminate between real organic beings and the phony outlines Lando had taught them to create. Those remained like ghosts, hollow and insubstantial.
"That my dear Captain Calrissian, was a demonstration employing one times ten to the minus seventeenth of the power available to me. "
And also, on the Electromagnetic torpedo:
The electromagnetic torpedo was a container for Rokur Gepta's most powerful Force technique, which was one of the strongest powers of the dark side. It was the greatest achievement of any of the Sorcerers of Tund.
Exactly how many Alderaanian survivors took Palpatine up on his "offer and moved to Byss is unknown. What is certain is that it may have been better for them to have died in the disaster, considering what really happened to those hopefuls who came to the Deep Core stronghold. Many were simply rendered mindless slaves, going about their lives in a deadened bliss while Sidious and his Dark Side confidants fed from the energies of Byss and its inhabitants."
And Palpatine's Dark Side elites were the most powerful in his empire. So what?
Sedriss summoned enough in terms of force storm to match and obliterate Ood Bnar.
Nothing Nayriss ever does even begins to compare to Cronal making an ancient Sith Spirit his *****, either.
Yeah, he only walked into Korriban, enslaved a Sith Spirit and consumed its knowledge. He's shown he can dominate the minds of an entire armada...but Nayriss can use force lightning!
Wow, I'm sure that puts her up there with Gethzerion.
Uh, no. It was stated in Dark Empire 2 they were trained in Sith abilities. As seen when Sedriss and Vill Goir attempt what Luke describes as 'old, deadly Sith' trick that Vodo's Holocron taught him how to counter.
In addition, we know his Acolytes could utilize life drain on Byss's inhabitants. We know that there were accomplished Sith Sorcerers like Cronal in Palpatine's ranks. Hell, Cronal 's official title amongst the acolytes was 'Palpatine's Monster Maker' for his talent with Sith Alchemy.
Palpatine also pressed all the old Sith cults like the Prophets and Sun Guards into his order. Orders that were started by Sith and still had their teachings and some of their powers.
Okay, I'm not sure how to make it clearer: Kadann is said to have avoided combat out of distaste for it, despite his immense power. Only four force users, at his peak, were greater than him. And again, skilled use in force lightning is more than most of the councillors have
Sedriss: Matched powers with an ancient Jedi Master calling upon all the force powers of Ossus
Arden Lyn: Held her own against three members of the Inquisitorus when she'd just woken up, killed a strong JEdi master in single combat
Cronal: Half of Shadows of Mindor is dedicated to pointing out his immense power in the Dark Side, dominated a Sith Lord on Korriban
Jeng Droga: Nearly killed Kyle Katarn in Lightsaber combat
Jerec: Immobilized a Jedi master with a flick of his wrist.
Gethzerion: Killed an entire squad of storm troopers with....a flick of her finger
But no, the new guys just suck next to the old and aren't fit to kiss their boots, apparently [/B]Yes, when you make absurd comparisons between dark side adepts and Dark Lords, then this is what happens. But then again, you tried arguing that Lynn existing for 25,000 years is more impressive than Vitiate's immortality, so it's pretty much downhill for you.
Wait, is the tree Jedi being argued as a contender on KMC?
Why is he a great example of power, but Arca Jeth who can dismantle battle droids with a "simple tug of the Force" and Vodo who can make a wooden stick stronger than a lightsaber are both somehow weak and unable to be substantiated whenever Exar Kun or Freedan Nadd's prowess is on the table?
Am I missing something here?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I can see that you've lost your mind so again, let me dumb it down for you once again.
I said this:You responded with this:
That is the classic example of a strawman. But instead of admitting your stupidity, you tried some type of desperation by claiming I belittled his abilities which is yet another strawman. Move on, you lose.
Your entire argument is "LOL OOD SUCKS LOL"
So, no, it's not anything short of fitting.
Unless you prove it does, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Yeah, we're done there
No, but I don't see you rushing to provide quotes or anything else.
I enjoy how burden of proof shifts, again, when you disagree.
"This was why Cronal had chosen the code name Blackhole: because he
had willed himself to become an event horizon of the Dark.
And of all the powers the Dark granted its adepts, the greatest was
Darksight. It was Darksight that had led Cronal far from the Nihil Retreat,
beyond the Perann Nebula and out of the Unknown Regions altogether, in
search of the truth of his visions. It was Darksight that had led him to
Dromund Kaas, where he had easily infiltrated and come to dominate that
pack of pathetic, self-deluded fools who styled themselves Prophets of the
Dark Side.
Imagine, to waste one's brief foray in life, the fleeting bright instant
between the infinite dark before and the eternal dark beyond, in mere
study-in trying to learn to use the "dark side of the Force" to merely predict
the future. With Darksight, Cronal could create the future"
"Though Vader could never have been Cronal's equal in coursing the mazy
paths of dark power, it had served Cronal's purpose to pretend jealousy even
to appear to fail, more than once, and to openly bridle under Vader's
supposed authority"
Oh, I see you're back to psychoanalyzing fictional characters as yet another last resort. The simple fact is that they're dark side adepts with basic dark side powers and no sith knowledge or techniques. It's not their fault sure, but it doesn't put them on the same level as the most powerful sith lords of an empire.
Dark Empire 2: We have those 'basic adepts' being personally empowered by Palpatine and using what Luke calls old Sith tricks.
The Prophets and Sun Guards were already trained in Sith alchemy. One adept's master was a sith spirit he held captive.
Oh, more Sith powers from Cronal alone:
"And that ancient Sith alchemy had given him the knowledge to forge a
device to control the living crystal that formed the structure of Mindorese
meltmassif...
AND he knows Essence Transfer.
Oh great, you finally listed a source. I'd say we were making headway but you've yet to provide any direct quotes.No, our beliefs at least have logical reasoning behind it. Your pro PT stance doesn't. You haven't even attempted to make a valid argument, electing instead to play psychologist and dominate your posts with strawman fallacies.
We're not even discussing the PT here, silly.
Moreover, relying on 'psychology?' Yeah, Dark Siders tend to earn their titles
How many sith lords were fighting exactly? And in the comics there were two jedi, but later sources say there were several hundred jedi and several hundred sith. How this even addresses the argument is beyond me.
Your turn for sources.
I'd like to see a source that cites several hundred Jedi on Kirrek or Cinnagar.
We saw at least two Sith Lords on either planet, too. Guys in golden armor with giant swords
First, prove he was one of sadow's top sith lords. Do so without reaching. And I'd say the masters on Luke's council are all stronger than Palpatine's dark side adepts.
Kam Solusar [b]was one of those Dark Side adepts. Sedriss was stronger than any, save Luke, and we saw Dark Side adepts match and have the ability to defeat Luke's students. Just ask, say, JEng Droga, who took Kyle Katarn to defeat.
And as for Saes Rrogon, he is described as one of Naga's "Firsts"
"The honorific Captain still struck Saes's hearing oddly. He was accustomed
to leading hunting parties as a First, not ships as a Captain."
And he is the commander of the Harbinger in Sadow's fleet
Isn't this the guy who got owned by a non force sensitive?
That tells us absolutely nothing.
He wiped out Tund with it
Oh right, the same drain that left everyone alive and only seemed to benefit Palpatine, also in an irrelevant way.
When did it say that precisely?
And 'let everyone alive?' He wanted to. Why kill your food supply?
By the way, as extensions of Palpatine's will, it's natural that they enjoy the same alleged benefits of the byss drain as Palpatine, which further proves my point. They didn't do anything.
It says clearly they did the force drain as well.
Dark side adepts with basic dark side powers in an Empire whose majority is non force sensitives. Completely different from the True Sith empire where there were full fledged sith lords with vast knowledge.
You ignore how Palpatine had an enormous amount of dark siders under his command. The elites are just that: Elite
Sedriss obliterated a tree and did nothing else. Oh wait, the tree obliterated him. Nyriss owns Cronal because we see her impressive combat skill, while Cronal "owned" a sith spirit. Nice argument there, chief.
"Ancient Sith are AWESOME!....except when it goes against my argument."
Sedriss killed and was killed by (IE: Matching) an ancient Jedi calling upon all the power of one of the strongest worlds in the force.
Cronal dominated the minds of how many non force sensitives again? Oh crap, this must mean he can fight!
I love how using a legitimate force power makes him weak.
Congratulations, you have proven that Sedriss knows one sith trick where he's moving his fingers around like a drunk, and easily countered by Luke.
Yeah, because we all know Luke is weak.
I've already shown he can use deadly Sith powers. Your move, dear.
What exactly did Cronal do? You keep listing titles and paraphrasing quotes, but what relevance do they have? Also, how do we know his acolytes could utilize life drain on Byss? Not that it matters, since they should as extensions of Palpatine's will.
When precisely did it call them extensions of Palpatine's will? Can you contextualize the meaning of that? His Hands are 'extensions' as well.
And Cronal created many creatures with Sith Alchemy, his mind control helmet, two of Jerec's Sithspawn Dark Jedi, Gorc and Pic...that's a start
When you are arguing complete unknowns mixed with Palpatine's unwillingness to teach sith techniques to non sith, you start reaching
What's 'reaching?' We've seen flat out he did. Cronal even reflects that Palpatine taught him Transfer Essence.
Prove his power was immense in terms of combat prowess, not foresight. Don't make excuses for Kadann. Prove only four force users were greater than him. Nothing about Kadann puts him on par with the sith lords from the true sith empire.
Now you start showing me what they have that puts them on par with him.
I have established Kadann's power in the force, his incredible abilities with forefight, his ability to generate powerful force lightning (such as when he tortured Grand Admiral Makati)
Show me the great feats of those Sith, who got owned by a guy who ran into a lightsaber
A true that has no combat prowess.
Prove it. The fact that he trained Duron Qel-Droma and Shaela Nuur in lightsabers and the force proves otherwise
Prove he was a "strong jedi master" without making things up.
Pina was one of the leading Jedi against the Legions of Lettow, yeah
Again, another alleged quote mixed with a feat that while impressive, is ultimately irrelevant.
I love how crushing an ancient sith on Korriban is 'irrelevant'
OHHHHHHOHHHHH
Cool, a feat replicated by MANY others.
Sources. Keep in mind Gethzerion's a Nightsster, too
Yes, when you make absurd comparisons between dark side adepts and Dark Lords, then this is what happens. But then again, you tried arguing that Lynn existing for 25,000 years is more impressive than Vitiate's immortality, so it's pretty much downhill for you. [/B]
NExt you'll be arguing Vitiate's immortality surpasses Plagueis's
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Wait, is the tree Jedi being argued as a contender on KMC?Why is he a great example of power, but Arca Jeth who can dismantle battle droids with a "simple tug of the Force" and Vodo who can make a wooden stick stronger than a lightsaber are both somehow weak and unable to be substantiated whenever Exar Kun or Freedan Nadd's prowess is on the table?
Am I missing something here?
Arca's quite powerful. So is Ood.
Vodo's feat was replicated (And surpassed) by Jedi like Torr Snappit,Satele Shan and Corran Horn (and the latter two weren't even fully trained). Vodo was also a joke of a master who did nothing but screw up and fail miserably when he didn't have, what, a half dozen other Jedi backing him up?
Sure Vodo's impressive. He's a Jedi Master. Of course, everyone who claims he's worthy of being in the same sentence as people like Satele Shan, Yoda, Luke, Mace Windu? You better start listing his achievments.
Hell, blocking one swing of Exar Kun's DBL is already more impressive from Ood than what Vodo did
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I enjoy how burden of proof shifts, again, when you disagree."This was why Cronal had chosen the code name Blackhole: because he
had willed himself to become an event horizon of the Dark.
And of all the powers the Dark granted its adepts, the greatest was
Darksight. It was Darksight that had led Cronal far from the Nihil Retreat,
beyond the Perann Nebula and out of the Unknown Regions altogether, in
search of the truth of his visions. It was Darksight that had led him to
Dromund Kaas, where he had easily infiltrated and come to dominate that
pack of pathetic, self-deluded fools who styled themselves Prophets of the
Dark Side.
Imagine, to waste one's brief foray in life, the fleeting bright instant
between the infinite dark before and the eternal dark beyond, in mere
study-in trying to learn to use the "dark side of the Force" to merely predict
the future. With Darksight, Cronal could create the future""Though Vader could never have been Cronal's equal in coursing the mazy
paths of dark power, it had served Cronal's purpose to pretend jealousy even
to appear to fail, more than once, and to openly bridle under Vader's
supposed authority"
Jeez. How come I've never heard of this guy if he's apparantly Vaders superior?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Arca's quite powerful.
Actually, when Arca Jeth's prowess was brought up before, you yourself said he had to have sucked because he was shot by droids on the battlefield. So this comes as a surprise hearing you reverse that decision. Not that you're unable to change your mind; far from it. Just saying.
So is Ood.
Ood is not at all recognized for his Force prowess nor his combat prowess. His role in The Sith Wars was mainly to prevent Exar Kun from getting a small collection of lightsabers and tomes of unknown value. He proved his physical resilience when he absorbed a full on slash from a Massassi warrior. But that's the extent of his resistance before he morphs into a tree.
The point being, Ood should not be used as a "powerful" Force user, or you've just opened the door for people you've disputed like Kavar for example, who demonstrated the ability to freeze multiple people in an instant, a feat not replicated by Ood, Arca Jeth, or Yoda for that matter.
If you're taking one example of Force use or "resilience" and applying it as a shining example of powerful, capable, or any other loaded term, allow me to re-introduce Kavar.
Wait, he sucks because his death at the hands of Kreia implies she was more powerful than Sidioussome folks.
Vodo's feat was replicated (And surpassed) by Jedi like Torr Snappit,Satele Shan and Corran Horn (and the latter two weren't even fully trained).
Right, but you see the point I was making? There's tons of one-trick ponies and nebulous Force users in Star Wars. If you allow quantifiers like "powerful" to be used, then you have to provide more context to support just how powerful. Vodo's not shown us anything exceptional, but in the context of his story, he is supposed to be a dueler and master of some repute. But against established badasses like say, Sidious or Yoda, he couldn't hold a candle.
Vodo was also a joke of a master who did nothing but screw up and fail miserably when he didn't have, what, a half dozen other Jedi backing him up?
Vodo took on Exar Kun by himself, and underestimated him. Let's forget that Kun was already a prodigious duelist, foremost in his era excepting Ulic, and that he's channeling Force power exponentially stronger than what he possessed in the last duel which he won as well.
Vodo was always in over his head, that's not contested. But he still had some power. But you yourself wouldn't call him "powerful" as you are with Ood Bnar, correct?
Sure Vodo's impressive. He's a Jedi Master. Of course, everyone who claims he's worthy of being in the same sentence as people like Satele Shan, Yoda, Luke, Mace Windu? You better start listing his achievments.
Now you're turning the argument against me and confusing the point. I'm not here to defend Vodo; I'm here to point out the obvious hypocrisy in defending Ood Bnar, the Tree Jedi Master, to defend someone else's reputation in a method to stretch it and defend Sidious' reputation. That's like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon just to substantiate power.
Hell, blocking one swing of Exar Kun's DBL is already more impressive from Ood than what Vodo did
Considering Vodo was able to trade more than one blow, I'd say your point is moot. Ood was a stationary combatant who could absorb most attacks, so he had nothing to worry about. And in the end, Exar Kun was not seriously interested in destroying him as he was his master, Vodo.
And Ood did really good being powerful against that supernova: