Lord Girahim vs Kain

Started by ScreamPaste5 pages

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no, just eyeballing it shows its a few chunks of rock from an unkown attack. If he had lifted up the wall then maybe but smashing them, no.

Same speed as the dimentional port, although ive not seen him attack out of it. And sword catching fingers is not "toughness", hes using two fingers to catch links sword.

Overall Ghirahim based on your evidence only has at best a better teleport. That is all, vastly inferior power and defence.

Also, Cosmic said no magic or exotic powers but the sword Kain uses is empowered with a lot of powers by its nature, blood and soul devouring being the easy way to win. Although I stick by what I said, Kain can do this with his hands.

Yeah, devour the soul or blood of
Spoiler:
a sword
, go on, try.

I know hes a sword, the sword of demise if I understand it? both a demon and a sword though. Technically, Raziel is also a sword.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no, just eyeballing it shows its a few chunks of rock from an unkown attack. If he had lifted up the wall then maybe but smashing them, no.

Ghirahim's magic is very distinctive, what with all the diamonds. Throwing all the rocks puts him above Raziel, especially if he wields his sword in both hands. You think smashing the wall and tossing the debris isn't impressive?


Same speed as the dimentional port, although ive not seen him attack out of it. And sword catching fingers is not "toughness", hes using two fingers to catch links sword.

Kain can't use the dimentional teleport over and over again, and he teleports directly behind Link several times during their fights. Above him, too. Nothing's preventing Ghirahim from catching Kain's sword, either, then.


Overall Ghirahim based on your evidence only has at best a better teleport. That is all, vastly inferior power and defence.

His teleport is better, yes. As is Ghirahim's speed, and his armored arms and body have better durability, and breaking the wall shows superior strength.


Also, Cosmic said no magic or exotic powers but the sword Kain uses is empowered with a lot of powers by its nature, blood and soul devouring being the easy way to win. Although I stick by what I said, Kain can do this with his hands.

It's still a sword, so it should count. Won't help, but it counts. Kain will never win with just his hands.

This forum seems to love Kain alot...

Originally posted by deadliestfan
This forum seems to love Kain alot...
Spiting him is just something we do to see if BT will actually defend Kain. He always does, so it's gotten kind of boring, but meh. Lol. It gets activity at least. And this forum definitely needs activity. In that way, at least, BT is entirely necessary right now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ghirahim's magic is very distinctive, what with all the diamonds. Throwing all the rocks puts him above Raziel, especially if he wields his sword in both hands. You think smashing the wall and tossing the debris isn't impressive?

Kain can't use the dimentional teleport over and over again, and he teleports directly behind Link several times during their fights. Above him, too. Nothing's preventing Ghirahim from catching Kain's sword, either, then.

His teleport is better, yes. As is Ghirahim's speed, and his armored arms and body have better durability, and breaking the wall shows superior strength.

It's still a sword, so it should count. Won't help, but it counts. Kain will never win with just his hands.

No because you dont see how he did it, you dont see him lift anything therefore he either hit it, which means its not a strength but a force feat and would be useless or a magic feat. Also youve calculated nothing, you just making statements again...

I cant see a reason why not, otherwise Ghirahim cannot use his. Not only is Kain vastly more powerful and faster than Link, G will get his soul drained so its not a good diea.

Erm no, show me the durability feat.

Why? he has more power in his hands than G has shown to resist.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
BT is entirely necessary right now.

This is the only part that is not a lie, I am games vs.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No because you dont see how he did it, you dont see him lift anything therefore he either hit it, which means its not a strength but a force feat and would be useless or a magic feat. Also youve calculated nothing, you just making statements again...

So Ghirahim hitting a stone wall, breaking it, and throwing the resulting debris is not a strength feat. Why is that? How is a force feat useless when they're the same thing? Again, Ghirahim can't do magic without glowing diamonds everywhere, so we know it isn't that. Ghirahim's "force" is currently more impressive than Raziel's.


I cant see a reason why not, otherwise Ghirahim cannot use his. Not only is Kain vastly more powerful and faster than Link, G will get his soul drained so its not a good diea.

I can, since Kain's is tied to a meter, and Ghirahim is explicitly shown using his all the time. Kain has a canon teleport, and the dimension reaver isn't it. Kain is not really faster than Link, though, and Ghirahim catching the sword doesn't harm him, so no soul drain there.


Erm no, show me the durability feat.

Which one? Catching swords or being invulnerable to the Master Sword?


Why? he has more power in his hands than G has shown to resist.

Ghirahim's stronger than Kain; he shouldn't have a problem. I don't think you've ever shown a strength feat for Kain.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by The Scenario
So Ghirahim hitting a stone wall, breaking it, and throwing the resulting debris is not a strength feat. Why is that? How is a force feat useless when they're the same thing? Again, Ghirahim can't do magic without glowing diamonds everywhere, so we know it isn't that. Ghirahim's "force" is currently more impressive than Raziel's.

I can, since Kain's is tied to a meter, and Ghirahim is explicitly shown using his all the time. Kain has a canon teleport, and the dimension reaver isn't it. Kain is not really faster than Link, though, and Ghirahim catching the sword doesn't harm him, so no soul drain there.

Which one? Catching swords or being invulnerable to the Master Sword?

Ghirahim's stronger than Kain; he shouldn't have a problem. I don't think you've ever shown a strength feat for Kain.

[/QUOTE]

Because its a force feat, the same attack by Kain or Raz would melt or vaporise the wall being made of stone. And their not the same, hes smashing something with an unkown attack. 🙄 we dont see if there were diamonds or not. Also, again, show me the math.

Oh this again, gameplay. The dimension reaver is another, all the emblems of power that enhance the reaver are important in the plot. Also wut? If he catches Links it doesnt, Kains has this effect.

So theres no durability feat then, catching a sword is more strength than durability. Although links strength in this game would be nice to see.

ive shown him overpowering Raziel with ease every time I post a vid of him and Raz fighting. Kains generally stronger than Raz.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]
Because its a force feat, the same attack by Kain or Raz would melt or vaporise the wall being made of stone. And their not the same, hes smashing something with an unkown attack. 🙄 we dont see if there were diamonds or not. Also, again, show me the math.

Neither Kain nor Raziel has ever vaporized stone with any attack, ever. Raziel has failed to kick down doors, and barely managed to cut through William the Just's coffin. Kain himself has also failed to kick down a door. Ghirahim tore down a wall and threw its pieces farther than Razil could have.


Oh this again, gameplay. The dimension reaver is another, all the emblems of power that enhance the reaver are important in the plot. Also wut? If he catches Links it doesnt, Kains has this effect.

Prove Kain can use it continuously whenever he wants, then. Link's sword won't damage him if he catches it, since his arms are confirmed to be armored, and the same will happen with Kain's sword. If he catches it, it isn't hitting him.


So theres no durability feat then, catching a sword is more strength than durability. Although links strength in this game would be nice to see.

It's both, he's got to be durable enough to stop that sword, and he actually says his arms are armored. Until, at least, he extends the armor to the rest of his body, at which point Link couldn't hurt him without special tactics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI

Edit:

Spoiler:
Also, Sword-Ghirahim gets struck by lightning several times and clashes with the Master Sword without damage.


ive shown him overpowering Raziel with ease every time I post a vid of him and Raz fighting. Kains generally stronger than Raz.

Better fighter than =/= stronger than.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Neither Kain nor Raziel has ever vaporized stone with any attack, ever. Raziel has failed to kick down doors, and barely managed to cut through William the Just's coffin. Kain himself has also failed to kick down a door. Ghirahim tore down a wall and threw its pieces farther than Razil could have.

Prove Kain can use it continuously whenever he wants, then. Link's sword won't damage him if he catches it, since his arms are confirmed to be armored, and the same will happen with Kain's sword. If he catches it, it isn't hitting him.

It's both, he's got to be durable enough to stop that sword, and he actually says his arms are armored. Until, at least, he extends the armor to the rest of his body, at which point Link couldn't hurt him without special tactics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4wLR0TNPiI

Edit:

Spoiler:
Also, Sword-Ghirahim gets struck by lightning several times and clashes with the Master Sword without damage.

Better fighter than =/= stronger than.

Stone is shattered in the tens of thousands of pascals, Kain and Raziel are in the trillions of pascals. Theyve never tried, iirc your refering to when Kain just pushes it with his foot and has no real need to get through the one in the Stronghold OR when Raziel prods a door with his foot, only to smash through it completly with his hands.

I need no more proof of that than Girahim does of his or any teleport, theres no energy source therefore no gauge of uses. 😆 wow thats good evidence, oh wait hang on...

😆 Link moving around a block thats shorter than he is with some effort...unbelievable.

Kains never really fought Raziel properly though, you can hardly call Kains toying in the SR 2 intro as "better fighte", he just plucks raziel out of the air, or breaks his hold on him to launch him across the room. Raziel is portrayed as kains strength inferior, if Raziel was stronger he wouldnt struggle with both his hands against Kains one arm holding him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Stone is shattered in the tens of thousands of pascals, Kain and Raziel are in the trillions of pascals. Theyve never tried, iirc your refering to when Kain just pushes it with his foot and has no real need to get through the one in the Stronghold OR when Raziel prods a door with his foot, only to smash through it completly with his hands.

Quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=7m58s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s Incidentally, I notice it takes Raziel three tries to get through this door; first that 2 handed push, followed by kick, and finally the second kick, third hit manages to knock it back barely a meter, if that. Further, there's still the matter of Ghirahim tossing the debris outward, each chunk of which could be up to 100 tons in weight.

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/albums/ucsdbear/bear02.jpg This picture has been posted before, thanks go to CosmicComet.


I need no more proof of that than Girahim does of his or any teleport, theres no energy source therefore no gauge of uses. 😆 wow thats good evidence, oh wait hang on...

'k, then, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=10m13s

Ghirahim teleports everywhere, can you prove Kain can do the same? I gave my evidence, it'd be nice if you returned the favor. What do you mean no energy source? The Blood Reaver feeds on blood and uses that to power its reaver spells, that's why the meter is there.


😆 Link moving around a block thats shorter than he is with some effort...unbelievable.

I know, that's some heavy metal there. Though his sword locks with Ghirahim give him more than enough strength.


Kains never really fought Raziel properly though, you can hardly call Kains toying in the SR 2 intro as "better fighte", he just plucks raziel out of the air, or breaks his hold on him to launch him across the room. Raziel is portrayed as kains strength inferior, if Raziel was stronger he wouldnt struggle with both his hands against Kains one arm holding him.

Plucking Raziel out of the air isn't a strength feat; Raziel's a light corpse. Kain doesn't break any hold, he just moves Raziel's arm while surprising him. If Raziel was Kain's inferior, he never would have torn Kain's heart out.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=7m58s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s Incidentally, I notice it takes Raziel three tries to get through this door; first that 2 handed push, followed by kick, and finally the second kick, third hit manages to knock it back barely a meter, if that. Further, there's still the matter of Ghirahim tossing the debris outward, each chunk of which could be up to 100 tons in weight.

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/albums/ucsdbear/bear02.jpg This picture has been posted before, thanks go to CosmicComet.

'k, then, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=9m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKkoNb9aV6s#t=10m13s

Ghirahim teleports everywhere, can you prove Kain can do the same? I gave my evidence, it'd be nice if you returned the favor. What do you mean no energy source? The Blood Reaver feeds on blood and uses that to power its reaver spells, that's why the meter is there.

I know, that's some heavy metal there. Though his sword locks with Ghirahim give him more than enough strength.

Plucking Raziel out of the air isn't a strength feat; Raziel's a light corpse. Kain doesn't break any hold, he just moves Raziel's arm while surprising him. If Raziel was Kain's inferior, he never would have torn Kain's heart out.

Like I said.

Two tries, the first thing is the default "push" animation that happens if you try and run into any wall and is not part of the cutscene, also hardly "tries", hes not struggling in either, he uses a light prod and then smashes it off its hinges.

That boulder is far larger than the piecies that get smashed, its still not a strength feat if hes not holding anything up. Pressure, as I said, stones pressure resistance is not that high.

He teleports 3 times, kain teleports here more than that in quick succession;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF1S2bo6cSg#t=1m6s

Kain also teleports throughout the games so I think your toying again since you know this, ive shown you before. It feeds on blood, full stop. Kain, Raziel etc never actually mension "blood" powering the spells, or souls. The meters there just like any meter in games, to give a gameplay limit on the player, the games easy enough without being able to spam the powers all at once, constantly.

😆 heavy metal, hes probably moving a few tons at best, if that tbh, as he struggles to push it along the ground.

No, holding Raziel there with ease with both Raziels arms struggling to be loose doing nothing, not even wavering Kains hold. Yes because Raziel holding Kain up against the wall was never a hold. Of course he would, because Kain did not fight back or defend himself there.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Like I said.
Two tries, the first thing is the default "push" animation that happens if you try and run into any wall and is not part of the cutscene, also hardly "tries", hes not struggling in either, he uses a light prod and then smashes it off its hinges.

The push activates the cutscene, that's more than part of it. Raziel tried to kick it and failed, and had to try again. Nothing you say can change what happened in that cutscene.


That boulder is far larger than the piecies that get smashed, its still not a strength feat if hes not holding anything up. Pressure, as I said, stones pressure resistance is not that high.

They're actually quite similar in size, or at least one chunk is. Still, that's above 100 ton feat. It doesn't matter what kind of feat it is, Ghirahim can still do that to Kain, likely with a sword.


He teleports 3 times, kain teleports here more than that in quick succession;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF1S2bo6cSg#t=1m6s

Congrats, that's four, with a lengthy charge time that require Kain feed the reaver. Got a range yet?


Kain also teleports throughout the games so I think your toying again since you know this, ive shown you before. It feeds on blood, full stop. Kain, Raziel etc never actually mension "blood" powering the spells, or souls. The meters there just like any meter in games, to give a gameplay limit on the player, the games easy enough without being able to spam the powers all at once, constantly.

Yes, and Kain's actual teleport is much slower than that. The manual mentions it, though, when it explains why you need to kill people to use reaver spells. By your argument, you do realize that means Samus charging her gun is just a gameplay mechanic, so she can spam all of her charging weapons, correct? That would also eliminate the Power Bomb's long-*** charge time.


😆 heavy metal, hes probably moving a few tons at best, if that tbh, as he struggles to push it along the ground.

Sure, probably double digit tons, at best.


No, holding Raziel there with ease with both Raziels arms struggling to be loose doing nothing, not even wavering Kains hold. Yes because Raziel holding Kain up against the wall was never a hold. Of course he would, because Kain did not fight back or defend himself there.

That whole scene was Raziel and Kain just talking, Raziel never actually tried to free himself from Kain. That's barely a strength feat, especially considering Raziel's trouble with doors, eh?

Originally posted by The Scenario
The push activates the cutscene, that's more than part of it. Raziel tried to kick it and failed, and had to try again. Nothing you say can change what happened in that cutscene.

They're actually quite similar in size, or at least one chunk is. Still, that's above 100 ton feat. It doesn't matter what kind of feat it is, Ghirahim can still do that to Kain, likely with a sword.

Congrats, that's four, with a lengthy charge time that require Kain feed the reaver. Got a range yet?

Yes, and Kain's actual teleport is much slower than that. The manual mentions it, though, when it explains why you need to kill people to use reaver spells. By your argument, you do realize that means Samus charging her gun is just a gameplay mechanic, so she can spam all of her charging weapons, correct? That would also eliminate the Power Bomb's long-*** charge time.

Sure, probably double digit tons, at best.

That whole scene was Raziel and Kain just talking, Raziel never actually tried to free himself from Kain. That's barely a strength feat, especially considering Raziel's trouble with doors, eh?

All that happened was he attempted to push it forwards with his foot and it was jammed, so he used some force. I dont use my full strength everytime I try and open a door.....

He cant do anything to Kain, Kains durability is higher than his power.

Also, not in canon. This is not a gameplay mechanics battle. Range? what?

Its faster than pretty much any of Samus' charges and no, your using a meter only seen in the hud, nowhere is it shown or made canon in the games, wheras the charge for her guns can be seein in some quick time events and cutscenes.

Not double digit, impossible. It also looks like artificial construction, meaning it could be hollow.

Silly buggering again, Raziel was more or less went into rage on several occasions and Kain put him in his place, easily on both occasions.

Originally posted by Burning thought
All that happened was he attempted to push it forwards with his foot and it was jammed, so he used some force. I dont use my full strength everytime I try and open a door.....

After pushing on it with his hands once? He tried again, failed, and on the third hit knocked the gate maybe a meter. You know, I don't tend to use my full strength when I punch someone, so that line of thought leads to all kinds of things...


He cant do anything to Kain, Kains durability is higher than his power.

Ghirahim's power is higher than Raziel's, who has harmed Kain. Ergo, Ghirahim can harm Kain, especially since he has only a single blade to Raziel's two claws, and he can use both hands on one sword.


Also, not in canon. This is not a gameplay mechanics battle. Range? what?

You can either have the dimensional teleport and the meter, or you can have neither. The spell is linked to the meter, that makes its use a gameplay mechanic. By range, I mean show me the teleport moving farther than maybe 2 meters per jump.


Its faster than pretty much any of Samus' charges and no, your using a meter only seen in the hud, nowhere is it shown or made canon in the games, wheras the charge for her guns can be seein in some quick time events and cutscenes.

It's never mentioned, and doesn't actually appear in cutscenes. The charge beam, that is. This seems like a double standard to me. Hmm, what do you think of Link's stamina bar, incidentally?


Not double digit, impossible. It also looks like artificial construction, meaning it could be hollow.

In which case all of Raziel's blocks should be assumed hollow as well. Please apply this standard fairly, if you have to apply one. There are similarly sized metal balls that can weigh double digit tons, it's hardly impossible.


Silly buggering again, Raziel was more or less went into rage on several occasions and Kain put him in his place, easily on both occasions.

Which is why Raziel pinned Kain against a wall and then proceeded to politely wait for him to finish talking then? Really, it was a rather civil discussion, all things considered.

Originally posted by The Scenario
After pushing on it with his hands once? He tried again, failed, and on the third hit knocked the gate maybe a meter. You know, I don't tend to use my full strength when I punch someone, so that line of thought leads to all kinds of things...

Ghirahim's power is higher than Raziel's, who has harmed Kain. Ergo, Ghirahim can harm Kain, especially since he has only a single blade to Raziel's two claws, and he can use both hands on one sword.

You can either have the dimensional teleport and the meter, or you can have neither. The spell is linked to the meter, that makes its use a gameplay mechanic. By range, I mean show me the teleport moving farther than maybe 2 meters per jump.

It's never mentioned, and doesn't actually appear in cutscenes. The charge beam, that is. This seems like a double standard to me. Hmm, what do you think of Link's stamina bar, incidentally?

In which case all of Raziel's blocks should be assumed hollow as well. Please apply this standard fairly, if you have to apply one. There are similarly sized metal balls that can weigh double digit tons, it's hardly impossible.

Which is why Raziel pinned Kain against a wall and then proceeded to politely wait for him to finish talking then? Really, it was a rather civil discussion, all things considered.

Ignoring people again, first part is not part of the cutscene, its a default action. Also the fact that he succeeded sort of tosses your fairly pointless bashing of his feat and that he never actually struggled unlike most characters your displaying.

Erm no, not proven. And He does not have wraith blade either.

😆 its not your decision, I can either use the canon and ignore the gameplay or ignore your poor extrapolations of gameplay altogether, I may do both. A teleport cuts out distance, so range is irrelevent although the range shown is perfectly fine.

Links stamina bar itself is a gameplay mechanic, the fact he can only do X amount of weapon slashes (Having not played the game, I dont know how many you can do in-game) is probably unlikely for even a human but we know being a biological organism he can get tired, he can strain etc so we know he has some limit to what he can do.

Of course I apply it fairly, only Raziels blocks are not as artifical, theres no way for them to be hollow and similiar constructions are never hollow afaik in real life. Crates that look like Links in this case could easily be.

He waited for Kain to speak, so what? He was still holding him, being a bodyguard its something I have done on many occassions, making sure someone cant move but also giving them the allowence to speak actually helps the situation, in Raziels case, hes just let loose his strongest attacks without bringing out his wraith blade and Kain was completly unharmed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ignoring people again, first part is not part of the cutscene, its a default action. Also the fact that he succeeded sort of tosses your fairly pointless bashing of his feat and that he never actually struggled unlike most characters your displaying.

The default action activates the cutscene. The cutscene does not activate unless the default action is performed. The tail end of the default action actually appeared in the cutscene. Raziel is showing pushing himself backwards when he does it. Raziel failed once with his hands, then failed with a kick, and only on the third try did he succeed. You can't deny that he had trouble with it without ignoring the cutscene. Still, you're missing my entire point with this, which is that focusing on only one showing is beyond stupid. No, I do not actually think that Raziel is that weak, it's just a low showing. This is just me applying that line of thinking to Raziel as an example, primarily to show you why focusing on one showing is stupid.


Erm no, not proven. And He does not have wraith blade either.

Ghirahim broke a wall and threw debris that could weigh over 100 tons several meters. That's more power than Raziel. Ghirahim doesn't need the wraith blade, he has his own swords to stab Kain with.


😆 its not your decision, I can either use the canon and ignore the gameplay or ignore your poor extrapolations of gameplay altogether, I may do both. A teleport cuts out distance, so range is irrelevent although the range shown is perfectly fine.

That seems biased, why won't you use the same standard for everything? Just picking and choosing like that is pretty dishonest, especially if you say you're ignoring the game. Can you prove that all teleports cut out distance, or at least Kain's does? Because that sounds like something you made up, as well as a no-limits fallacy; there are many teleports in fiction that are short ranged, and the dimensional teleport has never moved Kain more than one or two meters.


Links stamina bar itself is a gameplay mechanic, the fact he can only do X amount of weapon slashes (Having not played the game, I dont know how many you can do in-game) is probably unlikely for even a human but we know being a biological organism he can get tired, he can strain etc so we know he has some limit to what he can do.

In the same way, we know that the Blood Reaver consumes blood from those it kills, and that the reaver spells come from the reaver. The conclusion that the reaver needs blood to cast those spells is quite simply the same as the conclusion that Link can get tired. The meter in both cases simply represents that.


Of course I apply it fairly, only Raziels blocks are not as artifical, theres no way for them to be hollow and similiar constructions are never hollow afaik in real life. Crates that look like Links in this case could easily be.

It's not a crate, it's a metal block. There is no reason for it to be hollow as it is not a container of any kind. That kind of metal block is not usually hollow either, not that they really exist like that.


He waited for Kain to speak, so what? He was still holding him, being a bodyguard its something I have done on many occassions, making sure someone cant move but also giving them the allowence to speak actually helps the situation, in Raziels case, hes just let loose his strongest attacks without bringing out his wraith blade and Kain was completly unharmed.

So your point is that he is not trying to hurt Kain, simply talk to him. In which case it's unlikely he was actually using his strongest attacks, and without the wraith blade he was in fact not using his full power. If he was trying to kill Kain, there's no reason to hold back or allow him to speak. In either case, Raziel was in fact holding back there.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The default action activates the cutscene. The cutscene does not activate unless the default action is performed. The tail end of the default action actually appeared in the cutscene. Raziel is showing pushing himself backwards when he does it. Raziel failed once with his hands, then failed with a kick, and only on the third try did he succeed. You can't deny that he had trouble with it without ignoring the cutscene. Still, you're missing my entire point with this, which is that focusing on only one showing is beyond stupid. No, I do not actually think that Raziel is that weak, it's just a low showing. This is just me applying that line of thinking to Raziel as an example, primarily to show you why focusing on one showing is stupid.

Ghirahim broke a wall and threw debris that could weigh over 100 tons several meters. That's more power than Raziel. Ghirahim doesn't need the wraith blade, he has his own swords to stab Kain with.

That seems biased, why won't you use the same standard for everything? Just picking and choosing like that is pretty dishonest, especially if you say you're ignoring the game. Can you prove that all teleports cut out distance, or at least Kain's does? Because that sounds like something you made up, as well as a no-limits fallacy; there are many teleports in fiction that are short ranged, and the dimensional teleport has never moved Kain more than one or two meters.

In the same way, we know that the Blood Reaver consumes blood from those it kills, and that the reaver spells come from the reaver. The conclusion that the reaver needs blood to cast those spells is quite simply the same as the conclusion that Link can get tired. The meter in both cases simply represents that.

It's not a crate, it's a metal block. There is no reason for it to be hollow as it is not a container of any kind. That kind of metal block is not usually hollow either, not that they really exist like that.

So your point is that he is not trying to hurt Kain, simply talk to him. In which case it's unlikely he was actually using his strongest attacks, and without the wraith blade he was in fact not using his full power. If he was trying to kill Kain, there's no reason to hold back or allow him to speak. In either case, Raziel was in fact holding back there.

Not really, its just because he was up against a surface when he pressed forwards, again this is what happens when your argueing a game you dont know. And, trouble? you cant show me him having trouble, he tries softly once, then he adds a little force, thats it tbh. If you had a legitimate low showing maybe you would have a point.

Again, not proven, another claim without any calcluations. His own sword? lol, by the time hes finished hes going to be picking up the shards and trying to slit Kain with it.

I can bet the teleports in fiction that are short ranged are limited by a tecnological fault or physical excertion, Kains teleports are purely magic and this one is not even going through him. Again, how can you have a limit on distance when distance is not actually travelled.

😆 some of the worst illogical deductions and reaching I have seen you do, the only fact we can conclude is that the reaver drinks blood, the second is that its enhanced by the emblems there is still no connection to spells and blood however, we know as I said, Link is a biological organism, in many cases human or as close as.

It looks like a crate to me, it looks especially artifical, meaing someone made it from piecies, not one big chunk, and I dont think people irl even make solid blocks of metal on purpose unless Links near a scrap yard but its appearance does not look alike to scrap.

Yes, because his claws love to speak! 😆 I would say the nigh bloodlust when he actually hits and attacks Kain is vastly more effort than when he topples the obelisk, which is the same "idle" movement he does for all the blocks in the game, without strain. Its true hes not using his "full" power, but then, neither is Kain, truth is your sort of making red herrings here, he still couldnt free himself from one of kains hands with both of his own.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not really, its just because he was up against a surface when he pressed forwards, again this is what happens when your argueing a game you dont know. And, trouble? you cant show me him having trouble, he tries softly once, then he adds a little force, thats it tbh. If you had a legitimate low showing maybe you would have a point.

You don't know Skyward Sword, while I have played Soul Reaver 2. Of course, Raziel does not play like a very strong character given that you need the wraith blade to kill practically anything and claws take forever. Not the best combat system, really, but that's irrelevant. In any case, it is a legitimate low showing because Raziel was shown to struggle the first two times he tried and failed to open the door.


Again, not proven, another claim without any calcluations. His own sword? lol, by the time hes finished hes going to be picking up the shards and trying to slit Kain with it.

Other than one piece of debris being as large as a boulder known to weigh 100 tons, not to mention the other pieces that were sent flying. The feat is simply above was Raziel is shown to be capable of. Plus, Ghirahim can make swords from thin air, and does so regularly in addition to the small shuriken/kunai things he throws around. Appropriate since his whole theme is swords. He's fast enough to block any of Kain's swings, especially if he dual weilds his swords.


I can bet the teleports in fiction that are short ranged are limited by a tecnological fault or physical excertion, Kains teleports are purely magic and this one is not even going through him. Again, how can you have a limit on distance when distance is not actually travelled.

Have you played Warcraft? Magic spell, known as Blink, it's pretty famous for being a short range teleport as well as extremely fast. Dungeons and Dragons has a spell called Dimension Door that's short ranged, as well as the actual Teleport spell which is longer ranged but still not infinite. Warhammer 40K has short ranged psychic teleports. Besides, you've either contradicted yourself or answered your own question: Teleports can have limited distance because of tech or exertion, but you can't have a limit on distance because distance isn't traveled? The obvious answer here would be that the spell or magic itself is limited. I would simply say that, unless the dimension reaver has teleported farther, two or three meters is its max because that's all it has shown. Kain's personal teleport has shown much greater range, but it's also much slower. Ghirahim also teleports pretty far, perhaps 50 meters or more from the temple to the bottom of the Sealed Grounds.


😆 some of the worst illogical deductions and reaching I have seen you do, the only fact we can conclude is that the reaver drinks blood, the second is that its enhanced by the emblems there is still no connection to spells and blood however, we know as I said, Link is a biological organism, in many cases human or as close as.

The meters is the connection, since it is stated that attacking enemies fills it with blood, and the special finishing moves that "feed the reaver" fill it with the blood of enemies. The reaver spells use that blood in the meter, so the obvious conclusion is that the reaver needs the blood to cast spell. Except we don't really need to conclude anything since this is explicitly spelled out in the manual. There is a difference between a mechanical abstraction and the thing it represents, and you can't deny both. Health bars (or hearts) don't exist, yes, but are you going to say that Link can't be killed? Magic (or TK) meters don't exist, but are you really saying that everyone has infinite magic? Because saying that Kain can use any reaver spell infinitely is doing exactly that, ignoring what the meter actually represents, which is the blood that fuels the spells. Characters can still be hurt without health bars, magic can still run out without a meter, and people can still get tired even if there isn't a fatigue meter. Reaver spells still need fuel without a blood meter.


It looks like a crate to me, it looks especially artifical, meaing someone made it from piecies, not one big chunk, and I dont think people irl even make solid blocks of metal on purpose unless Links near a scrap yard but its appearance does not look alike to scrap.

It's not a crate. There is no opening on it at all and its only purpose is to be pushed onto switches or as a platform. People don't tend to build elaborate puzzle dungeons, either, so there's really nothing to compare it to. It's just a block of metal. Link also does stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08J2fUlKCC0#t=19m37s

So yeah.


Yes, because his claws love to speak! 😆 I would say the nigh bloodlust when he actually hits and attacks Kain is vastly more effort than when he topples the obelisk, which is the same "idle" movement he does for all the blocks in the game, without strain. Its true hes not using his "full" power, but then, neither is Kain, truth is your sort of making red herrings here, he still couldnt free himself from one of kains hands with both of his own.

That's not really evident, though, but if they aren't using full strength I don't think you should be applying a maximum strength feat it and calling it durability. Raziel has hurt Kain before and after, so not using full strength actually works as the best explanation for why Kain wasn't hurt.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You don't know Skyward Sword, while I have played Soul Reaver 2. Of course, Raziel does not play like a very strong character given that you need the wraith blade to kill practically anything and claws take forever. Not the best combat system, really, but that's irrelevant. In any case, it is a legitimate low showing because Raziel was shown to struggle the first two times he tried and failed to open the door.

Other than one piece of debris being as large as a boulder known to weigh 100 tons, not to mention the other pieces that were sent flying. The feat is simply above was Raziel is shown to be capable of. Plus, Ghirahim can make swords from thin air, and does so regularly in addition to the small shuriken/kunai things he throws around. Appropriate since his whole theme is swords. He's fast enough to block any of Kain's swings, especially if he dual weilds his swords.

Have you played Warcraft? Magic spell, known as Blink, it's pretty famous for being a short range teleport as well as extremely fast. Dungeons and Dragons has a spell called Dimension Door that's short ranged, as well as the actual Teleport spell which is longer ranged but still not infinite. Warhammer 40K has short ranged psychic teleports. Besides, you've either contradicted yourself or answered your own question: Teleports can have limited distance because of tech or exertion, but you can't have a limit on distance because distance isn't traveled? The obvious answer here would be that the spell or magic itself is limited. I would simply say that, unless the dimension reaver has teleported farther, two or three meters is its max because that's all it has shown. Kain's personal teleport has shown much greater range, but it's also much slower. Ghirahim also teleports pretty far, perhaps 50 meters or more from the temple to the bottom of the Sealed Grounds.

The meters is the connection, since it is stated that attacking enemies fills it with blood, and the special finishing moves that "feed the reaver" fill it with the blood of enemies. The reaver spells use that blood in the meter, so the obvious conclusion is that the reaver needs the blood to cast spell. Except we don't really need to conclude anything since this is explicitly spelled out in the manual. There is a difference between a mechanical abstraction and the thing it represents, and you can't deny both. Health bars (or hearts) don't exist, yes, but are you going to say that Link can't be killed? Magic (or TK) meters don't exist, but are you really saying that everyone has infinite magic? Because saying that Kain can use any reaver spell infinitely is doing exactly that, ignoring what the meter actually represents, which is the blood that fuels the spells. Characters can still be hurt without health bars, magic can still run out without a meter, and people can still get tired even if there isn't a fatigue meter. Reaver spells still need fuel without a blood meter.

It's not a crate. There is no opening on it at all and its only purpose is to be pushed onto switches or as a platform. People don't tend to build elaborate puzzle dungeons, either, so there's really nothing to compare it to. It's just a block of metal. Link also does stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08J2fUlKCC0#t=19m37s

So yeah.

That's not really evident, though, but if they aren't using full strength I don't think you should be applying a maximum strength feat it and calling it durability. Raziel has hurt Kain before and after, so not using full strength actually works as the best explanation for why Kain wasn't hurt.

And thats not SR 2. Show me the struggling, theres no struggling apart from in this thread from you, trying to use the fact he didnt just smash the door in his first attempt at opening it.

Thats your extrapolation, I disagree, it looks smaller and its still not a lifting feat. Lucky for him he wont run out then. He will try to block but Kains attack will go right through them and him at once.

Tech and excertion is not present here though is it, no...blink is designed speciifcally to only go short distances, its part of the spells use. Kain has no excertion and does not get in any way diminished by teleporting, if you can show me him tired or weakened purely because of teleporting then you may have a point.

The meters are a gameplay item not used on the forum or any form of logic. If you used the health bar as a comparison for why someoen can be kileld though, you would get a roll of the eyes just the same as your getting now.

Well at least we can actually see what they are for sure, they look like stone garden ornamentation and such.

Raziels using "more" strength and effort by far than in his best feat, the only thing logically unsound is using a minor feat like the obelisk on this, but since we dont have a feat where Raziel physically strains like we do with Bowser, I am forced to use the lower feat, the obelisk. Kain wasnt hurt because he has skin alike to super dense diamond in the fact it neither deformed, bruised or scratched at such force.