Lord Girahim vs Kain

Originally posted by Burning thought
And thats not SR 2. Show me the struggling, theres no struggling apart from in this thread from you, trying to use the fact he didnt just smash the door in his first attempt at opening it.

That is, in fact, struggling. He pushed against the door and ended up pushing himself backwards. Then he failed to kick it open. Only on the last try did he finally get it open, presumably because it was loosened. Dunno why you object to this so much, it's just a low showing, and an inconsistency; not like I'm trying to lord it as Raziel's true strength or anything.

Thats your extrapolation, I disagree, it looks smaller and its still not a lifting feat. Lucky for him he wont run out then. He will try to block but Kains attack will go right through them and him at once.

There's more than just the one rock, you know. Even if that one is smaller, adding the others makes it a superior feat, especially since he threw them several meters. Kain can't cut through Ghirahim's swords, nor his arms. The little orbit of blades should slow him down, too.

Tech and excertion is not present here though is it, no...blink is designed speciifcally to only go short distances, its part of the spells use. Kain has no excertion and does not get in any way diminished by teleporting, if you can show me him tired or weakened purely because of teleporting then you may have a point.

Enough with the handwaves, most teleports have range limits even if they're quite large. Dimension Door and Teleport, as well as 40K psyker teleports can't cover unlimited distance. Comic Book teleporters like Nightcrawler can't. You saying Kain can is a no limits fallacy. You need to prove the dimension reaver can go farther than it is shown to. Further, Kain isn't the one teleporting, it's the reaver, and guess what, it has a meter that runs out when it used.

The meters are a gameplay item not used on the forum or any form of logic. If you used the health bar as a comparison for why someoen can be kileld though, you would get a roll of the eyes just the same as your getting now.

You're trying to use a limited ability infinite times, that is more worthy of rolled eyes in my opinion. Rather like trying to claim he never runs out of TK or never needs to let it recover. The fact remains that Kain can't use the dimension reaver's abilities without feeding the reaver first.

Well at least we can actually see what they are for sure, they look like stone garden ornamentation and such.

And giant stone platforms.

Raziels using "more" strength and effort by far than in his best feat, the only thing logically unsound is using a minor feat like the obelisk on this, but since we dont have a feat where Raziel physically strains like we do with Bowser, I am forced to use the lower feat, the obelisk. Kain wasnt hurt because he has skin alike to super dense diamond in the fact it neither deformed, bruised or scratched at such force.

That's not evident, you have no idea how much effort Raziel expended in either case, and there's no way to tell for sure. If he is holding back, likely because he's harmed Kain before and isn't using his strongest weapon, then it's hardly a feat at all. You can't say he was using more strength there, and for that matter the obelisk is Raziel's best feat, what's better? He just tossed Kain back a meter during the attack, so there's evidently hardly any force at all, and yet more evidence to Raziel holding back. Further, we know Kain's skin is nothing like diamond because he got his heart ripped out, and his flesh opened like normal skin. Ghirahim has a better claim to diamond skin given his whole theme is diamonds, not to mention his other forms.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That is, in fact, struggling. He pushed against the door and ended up pushing himself backwards. Then he failed to kick it open. Only on the last try did he finally get it open, presumably because it was loosened. Dunno why you object to this so much, it's just a low showing, and an inconsistency; not like I'm trying to lord it as Raziel's true strength or anything.

There's more than just the one rock, you know. Even if that one is smaller, adding the others makes it a superior feat, especially since he threw them several meters. Kain can't cut through Ghirahim's swords, nor his arms. The little orbit of blades should slow him down, too.

Enough with the handwaves, most teleports have range limits even if they're quite large. Dimension Door and Teleport, as well as 40K psyker teleports can't cover unlimited distance. Comic Book teleporters like Nightcrawler can't. You saying Kain can is a no limits fallacy. You need to prove the dimension reaver can go farther than it is shown to. Further, Kain isn't the one teleporting, it's the reaver, and guess what, it has a meter that runs out when it used.

You're trying to use a limited ability infinite times, that is more worthy of rolled eyes in my opinion. Rather like trying to claim he never runs out of TK or never needs to let it recover. The fact remains that Kain can't use the dimension reaver's abilities without feeding the reaver first.

And giant stone platforms.

That's not evident, you have no idea how much effort Raziel expended in either case, and there's no way to tell for sure. If he is holding back, likely because he's harmed Kain before and isn't using his strongest weapon, then it's hardly a feat at all. You can't say he was using more strength there, and for that matter the obelisk is Raziel's best feat, what's better? He just tossed Kain back a meter during the attack, so there's evidently hardly any force at all, and yet more evidence to Raziel holding back. Further, we know Kain's skin is nothing like diamond because he got his heart ripped out, and his flesh opened like normal skin. Ghirahim has a better claim to diamond skin given his whole theme is diamonds, not to mention his other forms.

He did not use his full strength in the first kick, you can see that and in the second he succeeded. Its not a low showing though, I use my foot to open doors, if I cant open them, it doesnt mean that using my full strength I could never damage the door.

Again, your doing the whole "ignoring evidence" play, also he didnt throw anything, it expanded outwards from an unkown reason, only thing we know is he did it. Yes because Ghirahims swords, and himself have more durability than the pressure at the core of the earth, oh wait...no they dont.

You cant show me them doing this, or the description that theres a range limt though can you, your probably relying on again, gameplay mechanics. Nightcrawler only teleports as far as he can see though, he does not even want to teleport past a wall.

Restated claim, you never countered anything here.

Hes not moving those though, a mechanism is.

I do have some idea, just like how I know Bowser strained with pain in his "feat", I know Raziel didnt, he didnt even make a sound unlike link every time he moves something, Raziel moves it like any obstacle. Kain absorbed the force, skin has elasticity, if you try and push someone over by using a small surface area your likely to fail no matter the force, Kain took it all with ease. Well the wraith blade is a godly weapon, a weapon even Nosgoth vampires fear. Considering you follow verse in which a sword can mean the difference between a boy and someone who can rival Gods its funny how bias you are towards this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He did not use his full strength in the first kick, you can see that and in the second he succeeded. Its not a low showing though, I use my foot to open doors, if I cant open them, it doesnt mean that using my full strength I could never damage the door.

Even after he'd already failed to push it with his hands. At that point he knew he'd need more strength and failed again. That's a low showing, there's nothing you can really do about it.

Again, your doing the whole "ignoring evidence" play, also he didnt throw anything, it expanded outwards from an unkown reason, only thing we know is he did it. Yes because Ghirahims swords, and himself have more durability than the pressure at the core of the earth, oh wait...no they dont.

That sounds like reaching to downplay a legitimate feat to me, we know that Ghirahim provided the force that threw the rocks, so what are you saying here? That Ghirahim isn't strong enough to throw them despite the evidence? I dunno about the earth's core, but Ghirahim certainly has enough durability to block Kain's attacks.

You cant show me them doing this, or the description that theres a range limt though can you, your probably relying on again, gameplay mechanics. Nightcrawler only teleports as far as he can see though, he does not even want to teleport past a wall.

So where's the evidence that Kain can teleport farther than he's shown to? You need to prove it, it's not on me to disprove it. Nightcrawler's normal range limit is like 2 miles, not sure what you're talking about. Dimension Door has a non-epic limit of near 1000 feet. Blink is 20 yards. Kain has shown maybe 2-3 meters. You want more you should prove it.

Restated claim, you never countered anything here.

You never proved anything here. You're saying that a limited use ability can be used infinitely based on nothing. So if you want to claim that, again, prove it.

Hes not moving those though, a mechanism is.

By using Link's force.

I do have some idea, just like how I know Bowser strained with pain in his "feat", I know Raziel didnt, he didnt even make a sound unlike link every time he moves something, Raziel moves it like any obstacle. Kain absorbed the force, skin has elasticity, if you try and push someone over by using a small surface area your likely to fail no matter the force, Kain took it all with ease. Well the wraith blade is a godly weapon, a weapon even Nosgoth vampires fear. Considering you follow verse in which a sword can mean the difference between a boy and someone who can rival Gods its funny how bias you are towards this.

You don't actually know whether or not Raziel struggled, and a grunt or lack thereof does not indicate anything. Raziel's a corpse, I don't think he even breathes. In any case, isn't it you who always goes on about Ganon only tossing the Master Sword a few meters, but when Raziel does the same you turn a blind eye? Something about there not not being much force at all? So, what are the Wraith Blade's actual feats? I mean, you must believe it's a god weapon for some reason besides people just saying stuff. that's never backed up. I mean, the Master Sword has cut through barriers and curses, hurt a guy that tanks castle busters, channeled lightning and all kinds of stuff, what's the Wraith Blade actually done besides fail to take Moebius' soul for 40 seconds?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Even after he'd already failed to push it with his hands. At that point he knew he'd need more strength and failed again. That's a low showing, there's nothing you can really do about it.

That sounds like reaching to downplay a legitimate feat to me, we know that Ghirahim provided the force that threw the rocks, so what are you saying here? That Ghirahim isn't strong enough to throw them despite the evidence? I dunno about the earth's core, but Ghirahim certainly has enough durability to block Kain's attacks.

So where's the evidence that Kain can teleport farther than he's shown to? You need to prove it, it's not on me to disprove it. Nightcrawler's normal range limit is like 2 miles, not sure what you're talking about. Dimension Door has a non-epic limit of near 1000 feet. Blink is 20 yards. Kain has shown maybe 2-3 meters. You want more you should prove it.

You never proved anything here. You're saying that a limited use ability can be used infinitely based on nothing. So if you want to claim that, again, prove it.

By using Link's force.

You don't actually know whether or not Raziel struggled, and a grunt or lack thereof does not indicate anything. Raziel's a corpse, I don't think he even breathes. In any case, isn't it you who always goes on about Ganon only tossing the Master Sword a few meters, but when Raziel does the same you turn a blind eye? Something about there not not being much force at all? So, what are the Wraith Blade's actual feats? I mean, you must believe it's a god weapon for some reason besides people just saying stuff. that's never backed up. I mean, the Master Sword has cut through barriers and curses, hurt a guy that tanks castle busters, channeled lightning and all kinds of stuff, what's the Wraith Blade actually done besides fail to take Moebius' soul for 40 seconds?

I can, I can point out you dont have a low showing until you show me Raziel grunting and straining against the door, showing a cutscene thats obscured and simply requires Raziel succeeding in his second kick.

We know in some form he created said force, either through spell or some other, rocks dont go flying from sword slashes or punches and we dont even see either. Also, no evidence, again a claim, he has no durability to do so.

Your link says they need to visualise the area and state direction and on top of that your spouting gameplay on these examples. Considering these tropes as long as Kain can visualise where hes going he can get there. Also your doing it again, spouting things as apprent "limts" without the logic or science behind it.

Ive yet to see a "limited use" ability.

Hes moving one object and the mechanism is moving the others, you cant prove Link used much force other than a basic push. Its like any real mechanism, there are many where humans apply some basic force but the mechanism does the rest, like say a drawbridge.

Yes I do, the same reason I know he struggled against Kain in the SR2 intro and the same way I know Bowser struggles, effort shown. Raziels never failed tossing a sword when using any manner of strength. I like how apprently comparing the wraith blade to the Mastersword makes you belive I think its a "God weapon" the Mastersword has shown little more than a key when necessery. Aside from the "castle busting" thing which isnt true, the MS has nothing but a few plot specific effects and been used as a key to open certain temples and devices, as a combat weapon its pathetic. The wraith blade is pretty much the power core of the most powerful blade in LoK that literally defeated a God (great for someone like you who dotes on the MS's titles), it devours souls and has lists of elemental powers imbued by all the balance guardians and elementsi ts absorbed. Its also the combined souls of Kains sons that Raziel has devoured including his own which by themselves turned what was essentially dead mortal corpses into beings that by themselves could give Link a run for his money then youve got the soul devouring itself.

By the end of its games it can do anything from exploding with elemental power, devour souls or turn its user invisible. The MS can do what? combatwise its not much more than a regular sword, you can have your castle busting nonsense which is unproven but what is proven, is the wraith blades power to greatly wound someone who can take hundreds of times the earths cores pressure in the area hes struck and even cause great internal wounds.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I can, I can point out you dont have a low showing until you show me Raziel grunting and straining against the door, showing a cutscene thats obscured and simply requires Raziel succeeding in his second kick.

Raziel doesn't grunt, but I have already shown you him straining against the door no less than twice. You can't deny it, but what I'm saying you can do is say it's inconsistent. Please stop deliberately missing this point.

We know in some form he created said force, either through spell or some other, rocks dont go flying from sword slashes or punches and we dont even see either. Also, no evidence, again a claim, he has no durability to do so.

Again, Ghirahim's magic has a distinctive diamond pattern. There was no spell, he just broke through it. That makes Ghirahim stronger than Kain, and he's already got good enough durability feats from catching and blocking Link with the Master Sword.

Your link says they need to visualise the area and state direction and on top of that your spouting gameplay on these examples. Considering these tropes as long as Kain can visualise where hes going he can get there. Also your doing it again, spouting things as apprent "limts" without the logic or science behind it.

Where's the gameplay mechanics? Please quote them, because I haven't used any here. Even visualizing the area, if it's out of range the spell fails, and Blink is stated to have a maximum of 20 yards. If you want Kain to go farther, you really need to prove it. You're the one saying no distance is traveled and making a no limit fallacy, how about you provide evidence and science it up?

Ive yet to see a "limited use" ability.

It's that thing where Kain has to kill people to feed the reaver so it can use its spells. He can't use them all the time until you prove he can, so if I were you I'd get right on that.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
I think "meter" abilities definitely need some sort of cooldown or gathered requirement. Like how Samus in the Metroid Prime games can use Phazon weapons, but needs Phazon available to do so.

Just a reminder; you still need to prove your case.

Hes moving one object and the mechanism is moving the others, you cant prove Link used much force other than a basic push. Its like any real mechanism, there are many where humans apply some basic force but the mechanism does the rest, like say a drawbridge.

But it's all magic! Still a nice bit of strength even if it isn't moving the platforms.

Yes I do, the same reason I know he struggled against Kain in the SR2 intro and the same way I know Bowser struggles, effort shown. Raziels never failed tossing a sword when using any manner of strength. I like how apprently comparing the wraith blade to the Mastersword makes you belive I think its a "God weapon" the Mastersword has shown little more than a key when necessery. Aside from the "castle busting" thing which isnt true, the MS has nothing but a few plot specific effects and been used as a key to open certain temples and devices, as a combat weapon its pathetic. The wraith blade is pretty much the power core of the most powerful blade in LoK that literally defeated a God (great for someone like you who dotes on the MS's titles), it devours souls and has lists of elemental powers imbued by all the balance guardians and elementsi ts absorbed. Its also the combined souls of Kains sons that Raziel has devoured including his own which by themselves turned what was essentially dead mortal corpses into beings that by themselves could give Link a run for his money then youve got the soul devouring itself.

So Raziel struggling in the Soul Reaver 2 into only tossed the light weight Kain back a few feet? That list of Wraith Blade info is little more than a bunch of titles, including the implication that the Elder God is that powerful for a being who has no feats. Its only "soul devouring" feat was against the already dead Moebius and it took more than 45 seconds, unless you want to go use gameplay for it.

By the end of its games it can do anything from exploding with elemental power, devour souls or turn its user invisible. The MS can do what? combatwise its not much more than a regular sword, you can have your castle busting nonsense which is unproven but what is proven, is the wraith blades power to greatly wound someone who can take hundreds of times the earths cores pressure in the area hes struck and even cause great internal wounds.

While the Master Sword's power is mostly defensive given that it protects from curses and polymorph effects, as well as turning an opponent's magic against them, it also cuts through barriers, shoots blasts of energy and turns people to stone. The Master Sword cutting someone who tanks castle busters focused onto a spear point is > the wraith blade cutting someone who tanks claw strikes. They're pretty incomparable.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Raziel doesn't grunt, but I have already shown you him straining against the door no less than twice. You can't deny it, but what I'm saying you can do is say it's inconsistent. Please stop deliberately missing this point.

Again, Ghirahim's magic has a distinctive diamond pattern. There was no spell, he just broke through it. That makes Ghirahim stronger than Kain, and he's already got good enough durability feats from catching and blocking Link with the Master Sword.

Where's the gameplay mechanics? Please quote them, because I haven't used any here. Even visualizing the area, if it's out of range the spell fails, and Blink is stated to have a maximum of 20 yards. If you want Kain to go farther, you really need to prove it. You're the one saying no distance is traveled and making a no limit fallacy, how about you provide evidence and science it up?

It's that thing where Kain has to kill people to feed the reaver so it can use its spells. He can't use them all the time until you prove he can, so if I were you I'd get right on that.

Just a reminder; you still need to prove your case.

But it's all magic! Still a nice bit of strength even if it isn't moving the platforms.

So Raziel struggling in the Soul Reaver 2 into only tossed the light weight Kain back a few feet? That list of Wraith Blade info is little more than a bunch of titles, including the implication that the Elder God is that powerful for a being who has no feats. Its only "soul devouring" feat was against the already dead Moebius and it took more than 45 seconds, unless you want to go use gameplay for it.

While the Master Sword's power is mostly defensive given that it protects from curses and polymorph effects, as well as turning an opponent's magic against them, it also cuts through barriers, shoots blasts of energy and turns people to stone. The Master Sword cutting someone who tanks castle busters focused onto a spear point is > the wraith blade cutting someone who tanks claw strikes. They're pretty incomparable.

No you have not, youve shown at best a default action done against any surface and not a part of the cutscene at all, if you had played the games you would know its very annoying. I think you should stop deliberately ignoring the point, that this is not a showing at all tbh. If you had a decent number of low showings as compared to high, then you would have a point.

Well we dont see anything at all, so for all we know the diamond pattern appeared before it blew open so claiming there was no spell is just as ignorant as saying there "was" him just physically breaking through. And no, it means Ghirahim is capable of projecting rock breaking force (rock not being able to take that much) over an area. Which is lesser in power than Kains strikes....show me the math proving more power than Kains strikes.

Look up distance, distance= velocityx time, Kain is not going at any velocity and time does not cover distance either, since Kain is not technically physically passing it. Your claiming distance as a limit where distance is not travelled scientifically speaking.

Oh right gameplay, no sorry, we dont use gameplay mechanics here. I have yet to see the magic of the reaver diminished in any way canonically. Infact, theres no logical or fictional (in the game) description of comparison to the blood and the reaver other than, it drinks blood. The spells are an addition, the game has switched out a lot of mechanics over the series but you wouldnt know that.

on the contary, you brought it up, so its your case not mine. Also GK unlike you made a logical argument concerning Samus, she needs phazon to use phazon power, if thats how its shown in the game consistently then that makes some logical sense.

Not really, I could arguably do the same, we dont know anything about the mechanism.

There was one title that I outlined to mock the whole "zomg but its got the power of the deities in it!" and hes just as featless as the LoZ ones, infact he has more feats since they have zero screen time in the game. Thats not soul devouring, if you noticed Moebius was released to the Elder God, not absorbed into the reaver.

All basic fare tbh, by its very nature all it does is counter some magic Ganon/Zant may have done. And the MS has never cut (assuming its possible) through the disembodied immaterial head form of Ganon and we dont see any of that happen, nor can you compare any pressure or strength ratios for the spear since it has no shown feat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you have not, youve shown at best a default action done against any surface and not a part of the cutscene at all, if you had played the games you would know its very annoying. I think you should stop deliberately ignoring the point, that this is not a showing at all tbh. If you had a decent number of low showings as compared to high, then you would have a point.

I have played the game, and that doesn't change the fact that it still happens and fails. In fact, it is the action that activates the cutscene. It is a showing, you understand, precisely because it's in cutscene and involves Raziel's strength. Well, Raziel has very few showings in general, whether low or high, which just makes it more interesting.

Well we dont see anything at all, so for all we know the diamond pattern appeared before it blew open so claiming there was no spell is just as ignorant as saying there "was" him just physically breaking through. And no, it means Ghirahim is capable of projecting rock breaking force (rock not being able to take that much) over an area. Which is lesser in power than Kains strikes....show me the math proving more power than Kains strikes.

Actually, we see the debris go flying with no diamond patterns, which does indicate it was done without a spell. If there was a spell it would have been shown, as it stands, it was just Ghirahim breaking through. You're ignoring that the debris went flying quite a distance, farther than Raziel can throw anything and much larger than his blocks, which does make Ghirahim the stronger one, especially adding in the 100 ton boulder picture. You've never done any math to show that Kain has any power behind his strikes, though, and this really doesn't need to be mathed to figure out it's better than Raziel's feats.

Look up distance, distance= velocityx time, Kain is not going at any velocity and time does not cover distance either, since Kain is not technically physically passing it. Your claiming distance as a limit where distance is not travelled scientifically speaking.

And you've given no evidence that this equals infinite distance, nor any evidence that it reaches farther than the two meters that appear to be its maximum. So still a no limits fallacy until you get some actual proof Kain can go farther.

Oh right gameplay, no sorry, we dont use gameplay mechanics here. I have yet to see the magic of the reaver diminished in any way canonically. Infact, theres no logical or fictional (in the game) description of comparison to the blood and the reaver other than, it drinks blood. The spells are an addition, the game has switched out a lot of mechanics over the series but you wouldnt know that.

on the contary, you brought it up, so its your case not mine. Also GK unlike you made a logical argument concerning Samus, she needs phazon to use phazon power, if thats how its shown in the game consistently then that makes some logical sense.

You still seem unable to tell the difference between a mechanic and an abstraction. Do you not understand that a mechanic can represent something in canon? Yes, the meter is a mechanic, but it is stated to represent the amount of blood in the reaver, and when full can increase the reaver's power and allow the use of a reaver spell. Again, it's like saying Link has infinite stamina, or infinite magic just because the meter that measures it is a mechanic. It's your claim that Kain can use it infinitely, so it's actually up to you to prove it, and the reaver needing blood to use spells is logically spelled out in the Defiance manual, so ignoring that is just you ignoring inconvenient canon. Samus only needs phazon available in gameplay, after all, and Kain is consistently shown throughout the game to need to feed the reaver before he can use its spells. It's the same situation, really.

Not really, I could arguably do the same, we dont know anything about the mechanism.

'k?

There was one title that I outlined to mock the whole "zomg but its got the power of the deities in it!" and hes just as featless as the LoZ ones, infact he has more feats since they have zero screen time in the game. Thats not soul devouring, if you noticed Moebius was released to the Elder God, not absorbed into the reaver.

I'm not sure why you mock something I never said, but okay, you've successfully established you know nothing of Legend of Zelda. I could list the goddesses' on screen feats, but since that was never part of my claim I don't feel the need to. Exactly, it proves the wraith blade couldn't consume Moebius' soul even when he was impaled by it, that's a terrible showing.

All basic fare tbh, by its very nature all it does is counter some magic Ganon/Zant may have done. And the MS has never cut (assuming its possible) through the disembodied immaterial head form of Ganon and we dont see any of that happen, nor can you compare any pressure or strength ratios for the spear since it has no shown feat.

The spear has two feats of breaking a barrier and blowing up a castle, both a which are much greater than anything Raziel or Kain has ever done, and the Master Sword has broken a barrier as well as cut through Ganon.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I have played the game, and that doesn't change the fact that it still happens and fails. In fact, it is the action that activates the cutscene. It is a showing, you understand, precisely because it's in cutscene and involves Raziel's strength. Well, Raziel has very few showings in general, whether low or high, which just makes it more interesting.

Actually, we see the debris go flying with no diamond patterns, which does indicate it was done without a spell. If there was a spell it would have been shown, as it stands, it was just Ghirahim breaking through. You're ignoring that the debris went flying quite a distance, farther than Raziel can throw anything and much larger than his blocks, which does make Ghirahim the stronger one, especially adding in the 100 ton boulder picture. You've never done any math to show that Kain has any power behind his strikes, though, and this really doesn't need to be mathed to figure out it's better than Raziel's feats.

And you've given no evidence that this equals infinite distance, nor any evidence that it reaches farther than the two meters that appear to be its maximum. So still a no limits fallacy until you get some actual proof Kain can go farther.

You still seem unable to tell the difference between a mechanic and an abstraction. Do you not understand that a mechanic can represent something in canon? Yes, the meter is a mechanic, but it is stated to represent the amount of blood in the reaver, and when full can increase the reaver's power and allow the use of a reaver spell. Again, it's like saying Link has infinite stamina, or infinite magic just because the meter that measures it is a mechanic. It's your claim that Kain can use it infinitely, so it's actually up to you to prove it, and the reaver needing blood to use spells is logically spelled out in the Defiance manual, so ignoring that is just you ignoring inconvenient canon. Samus only needs phazon available in gameplay, after all, and Kain is consistently shown throughout the game to need to feed the reaver before he can use its spells. It's the same situation, really.

'k?

I'm not sure why you mock something I never said, but okay, you've successfully established you know nothing of Legend of Zelda. I could list the goddesses' on screen feats, but since that was never part of my claim I don't feel the need to. Exactly, it proves the wraith blade couldn't consume Moebius' soul even when he was impaled by it, that's a terrible showing.

The spear has two feats of breaking a barrier and blowing up a castle, both a which are much greater than anything Raziel or Kain has ever done, and the Master Sword has broken a barrier as well as cut through Ganon.

Well it does, we can all do that, claim every Action game characters weapons are soft and blunt because you cant carve through every wall in the game!! its an engine thing and the action button actives the cutscene.

No, we dont see the origin of force, nothing. And your making up nonsense, you dont know anything about how far Raziel can throw something.

😆 wut? I just proved there is no distance, distance is irrelevent, we only know Kain takes distance out of the equation and arrives where he wants his spell to take him.

It can if the canon actually mensions that blood powers spells in any way, LoK does never say this at all. The reaver does not even have a container on it, its not like Kain has a bottle of blood on the reaver that goes down when he casts a spell.....you have no indication canonically whatsoever.

Wheres the couldnt? cant you prove it tried? you dont seem to know what your saying again, funny how much of a hypcorite you are in one sentence "you dont know anything about Zelda" then proving you dont know LoK.

It has one feat of collapsing some barrier, which fell apart like glass and we have an ambigious event. I cant see how thats greater than pressure that dwarfs the core of a planet at the tip of your finger....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well it does, we can all do that, claim every Action game characters weapons are soft and blunt because you cant carve through every wall in the game!! its an engine thing and the action button actives the cutscene.

Pushing against the wall activates the cutscene, though, and Raziel still hits the door twice and fails. Are you starting to get my point with this example yet?

No, we dont see the origin of force, nothing. And your making up nonsense, you dont know anything about how far Raziel can throw something.

We see it go flying and Ghirahim out of nowhere, that's enough to say he's the one throwing it. I know exactly how far Raziel can throw things, he throws those stone block barely a meter and has no feats for you to claim much better.

😆 wut? I just proved there is no distance, distance is irrelevent, we only know Kain takes distance out of the equation and arrives where he wants his spell to take him.

You told me to go look up an equation. That's not proof of Kain teleporting more than 2 meters.

It can if the canon actually mensions that blood powers spells in any way, LoK does never say this at all. The reaver does not even have a container on it, its not like Kain has a bottle of blood on the reaver that goes down when he casts a spell.....you have no indication canonically whatsoever.

It does have a container: the little lights that glow when Kain gets a new fragment of the emblem. The manual states all of this, it's canon. It's also still on you to prove the claim that Kain can use it infinitely.

Wheres the couldnt? cant you prove it tried? you dont seem to know what your saying again, funny how much of a hypcorite you are in one sentence "you dont know anything about Zelda" then proving you dont know LoK.

Aren't you the one that went on about these things consuming souls "on strike"? In which case, the simple fact it struck Moebius indicates it would have been trying. Honestly, thugh, if your best defense is "the Wraith Blade was holding back!" then it seems that you don't have any better evidence?

It has one feat of collapsing some barrier, which fell apart like glass and we have an ambigious event. I cant see how thats greater than pressure that dwarfs the core of a planet at the tip of your finger....

It's still a feat for the Master Sword. Castle busting force on a sharp point >>>>>> half of tipping obelisk force on 2 sharp points.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Pushing against the wall activates the cutscene, though, and Raziel still hits the door twice and fails. Are you starting to get my point with this example yet?

We see it go flying and Ghirahim out of nowhere, that's enough to say he's the one throwing it. I know exactly how far Raziel can throw things, he throws those stone block barely a meter and has no feats for you to claim much better.

You told me to go look up an equation. That's not proof of Kain teleporting more than 2 meters.

It does have a container: the little lights that glow when Kain gets a new fragment of the emblem. The manual states all of this, it's canon. It's also still on you to prove the claim that Kain can use it infinitely.

Aren't you the one that went on about these things consuming souls "on strike"? In which case, the simple fact it struck Moebius indicates it would have been trying. Honestly, thugh, if your best defense is "the Wraith Blade was holding back!" then it seems that you don't have any better evidence?

It's still a feat for the Master Sword. Castle busting force on a sharp point >>>>>> half of tipping obelisk force on 2 sharp points.

Pressing action activtates the cutscene, however if your running up against any surface you get that motion. I think your failing your point tbh.

We know he was responsible in some way, not how. Raziel never "tries" to throw stone blocks...when has he tried to toss around stone blocks? and the obelisk feat proves better.

Its proof distance, or your "2 meters" is irrelevent.

Since when is everything a users manuel states is canon to the games storyline? wut? lol....you have a funny idea of how games vs works and mechanics still. Also show me the "container" for blood that apprently drains when used..you seem to think theres gaugable store in the canon.

The soul reaver sword takes souls on strike, theres also the fact Raziels intent was that the EG was to devour Moebius' soul, all were seeing is the transition between a soul being devoured by the wraith blade and by the Elder God.

Erm no, a castles made of stone, so to wreck it which Ganon did with a magic blast based on the source imo is to create force in the area of the stone which magic can do without physical effort. Theres no physcal processes here tbh, none you can prove, you cant even prove what the spear did, only that it made Ganon growl like an angry cat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Pressing action activtates the cutscene, however if your running up against any surface you get that motion. I think your failing your point tbh.

It changes nothing, you realize? Low showings and things, this still happened.

We know he was responsible in some way, not how. Raziel never "tries" to throw stone blocks...when has he tried to toss around stone blocks? and the obelisk feat proves better.

Whenever Raziel pushes or kicks a stone block it doesn't go half as far as Ghirahim throwing the debris.

Its proof distance, or your "2 meters" is irrelevent.

You didn't prove anything, though. You told me to look up something irrelevant and claimed Kain could teleport infinite distance.

Since when is everything a users manuel states is canon to the games storyline? wut? lol....you have a funny idea of how games vs works and mechanics still. Also show me the "container" for blood that apprently drains when used..you seem to think theres gaugable store in the canon.

Since forever, obviously. Or at least at the start of gaming since the purpose is to explain the game and story. You still don't get how abstractions work? I'm not saying the meter is canon, I'm saying it represents something that is. Where is your evidence he can use it infinitely, by the way?

The soul reaver sword takes souls on strike, theres also the fact Raziels intent was that the EG was to devour Moebius' soul, all were seeing is the transition between a soul being devoured by the wraith blade and by the Elder God.

You mean the wraith blade failing to devour Moebius' soul? This is not the only cutscene that involves the wraith blade hitting someone and failing to take their soul, so do you have any better feats?

Erm no, a castles made of stone, so to wreck it which Ganon did with a magic blast based on the source imo is to create force in the area of the stone which magic can do without physical effort. Theres no physcal processes here tbh, none you can prove, you cant even prove what the spear did, only that it made Ganon growl like an angry cat.

The heck are you talking about? Midna slamming the spear into Ganon is what destroyed the castle with physical forces, though with magic as a source. Why are you saying I can't prove things that prove themselves?

Originally posted by The Scenario
It changes nothing, you realize? Low showings and things, this still happened.

Whenever Raziel pushes or kicks a stone block it doesn't go half as far as Ghirahim throwing the debris.

You didn't prove anything, though. You told me to look up something irrelevant and claimed Kain could teleport infinite distance.

Since forever, obviously. Or at least at the start of gaming since the purpose is to explain the game and story. You still don't get how abstractions work? I'm not saying the meter is canon, I'm saying it represents something that is. Where is your evidence he can use it infinitely, by the way?

You mean the wraith blade failing to devour Moebius' soul? This is not the only cutscene that involves the wraith blade hitting someone and failing to take their soul, so do you have any better feats?

The heck are you talking about? Midna slamming the spear into Ganon is what destroyed the castle with physical forces, though with magic as a source. Why are you saying I can't prove things that prove themselves?

I dont see how Raziel knocking a door off its hinges after a gentle hit beforehand really means anything.

Because Raziel does not want it to? hes not trying to toss it? Raziel moves blocks easily inti place. Unless you show me Ghirahim pushing and kicking then your making hot air again.

How is the scientific expression of distance, and the proof that teleport does not have anything to do with it at all irrelevent?

no, its purpose is to provide instructions for the game. The evidence he can use it infinitly is the same as Ganon using barriers, Girahim teleports and Kratos his super strength, they dont use their powers over time, why should Kain or the reaver?

The scripted animation has Raziel doing everything from using his hands or his reaver to devour souls in seconds, its what it does. What "feats" are you asking for? the fact it affects souls by itself is far more than the MS has ever done.

There was no slam, there was a low growl, thats all we know the spear thrust did.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont see how Raziel knocking a door off its hinges after a gentle hit beforehand really means anything.

Funny, because I don't see a gentle hit, especially after pushing against it.

Because Raziel does not want it to? hes not trying to toss it? Raziel moves blocks easily inti place. Unless you show me Ghirahim pushing and kicking then your making hot air again.

Again, if you're arguing that people are holding back you're cheating yourself out of any feats. I've shown you Ghirahim breaking through the wall, could you stop trying to downplay it, though?

How is the scientific expression of distance, and the proof that teleport does not have anything to do with it at all irrelevent?

Where was the proof that the teleport has nothing to with it? I don't think you ever presented that. And you still need the evidence for Kain going farther.

no, its purpose is to provide instructions for the game. The evidence he can use it infinitly is the same as Ganon using barriers, Girahim teleports and Kratos his super strength, they dont use their powers over time, why should Kain or the reaver?

Because he can't he can't in game? Really, that's all there is to it. He can't do it in the game or cutscenes, I see no reason to allow it here.

The scripted animation has Raziel doing everything from using his hands or his reaver to devour souls in seconds, its what it does. What "feats" are you asking for? the fact it affects souls by itself is far more than the MS has ever done.

Both times it's hit someone in cutscene it failed to do this, so it seems the Wraith has too many low showings. It's not really "more" than the Master Sword so much as it's different.

There was no slam, there was a low growl, thats all we know the spear thrust did.

And blew up the castle. That's a fact.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Funny, because I don't see a gentle hit, especially after pushing against it.

Again, if you're arguing that people are holding back you're cheating yourself out of any feats. I've shown you Ghirahim breaking through the wall, could you stop trying to downplay it, though?

Where was the proof that the teleport has nothing to with it? I don't think you ever presented that. And you still need the evidence for Kain going farther.

Because he can't he can't in game? Really, that's all there is to it. He can't do it in the game or cutscenes, I see no reason to allow it here.

Both times it's hit someone in cutscene it failed to do this, so it seems the Wraith has too many low showings. It's not really "more" than the Master Sword so much as it's different.

And blew up the castle. That's a fact.

Theres a not so gentle hit on Kain in SR 2 intro, then theres a tap of his foot, which Kain also does in Defiance. There was no intent or reason for Raziel to run at the door using his full strength, when he usually just opens them. Its like finding my front door cold and frozen stiff when its been snowing, I dont simply assume and punch the door down.

No, why would I cheat myself out of feats if them using little to no effort can supercede the maximum of many others? youve not shown me him breaking down teh wall because we dont see it in the scene itself, we can only assume that he did so, but we cant assume how, not that he "kicked" it down, not that ive even seen him use his hands or feet.

So your now argueing that somehow, teleportation covers "distance" physically? even though the user is not, in this case physically present...right, your doing it again, your up against a wall so youll rinse and repeat without argument.

He cant do what exactly? nobody has shown an "unlimited" amount of their powers, that doesnt mean we assume they can only use each once or twice just because thats all they did in the game. You need to prove theres some energy source thats decreasing when Kains uses it, and your best is reaching for a gameplay mechanic bar and apprently a manuel which you claim is entirely canon cover to cover? you know i never realised the beings in Lok were privy to system info on their games.

The wraith blade is more or less a extension of Raziels will, Raziel never intended to devour it then, again your ignoring me so I dont know why I am posting to this, your just repeating yourself over and over, we can all do that, maybe ill just quote my previous posts every time you make one.

No, we know the castle blew up, we dont know why but Ganon is the biggest culprit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres a not so gentle hit on Kain in SR 2 intro, then theres a tap of his foot, which Kain also does in Defiance. There was no intent or reason for Raziel to run at the door using his full strength, when he usually just opens them. Its like finding my front door cold and frozen stiff when its been snowing, I dont simply assume and punch the door down.

Those are the same motion, though. There's really no difference aside from the arbitrary. Yeah, that's why Raziel tried to kick it, right? No, it quite clearly shows that Raziel tried to open the door, failed, then unlike you tried to kick it and failed. At that point he had a reason to use more strength, and still failed to open the door. Low showing...

No, why would I cheat myself out of feats if them using little to no effort can supercede the maximum of many others? youve not shown me him breaking down teh wall because we dont see it in the scene itself, we can only assume that he did so, but we cant assume how, not that he "kicked" it down, not that ive even seen him use his hands or feet.

Because that is the maximum for Raziel. You can't claim it's higher just because you decided Raziel wasn't trying. I'm not saying Ghirahim kicked it down so much as I'm saying he charged through it like the scene shows. If you haven't seen Ghirahim use his hands and feet you're missing rather vital parts of his fights.

So your now argueing that somehow, teleportation covers "distance" physically? even though the user is not, in this case physically present...right, your doing it again, your up against a wall so youll rinse and repeat without argument.

No, I'm not saying that teleportation covers distance physically. I'm asking you to prove that teleportation means infinite distance, which you have not yet done. I think the point you're missing is that I'm not really arguing right now. I'm urging you to get your argument together and prove it. You're claiming things you have no evidence for, and until you get that evidence there's not much I can do right now.

He cant do what exactly? nobody has shown an "unlimited" amount of their powers, that doesnt mean we assume they can only use each once or twice just because thats all they did in the game. You need to prove theres some energy source thats decreasing when Kains uses it, and your best is reaching for a gameplay mechanic bar and apprently a manuel which you claim is entirely canon cover to cover? you know i never realised the beings in Lok were privy to system info on their games.

That is the very definition of No Limits Fallacy. You honestly seem to be suggesting that despite Kain not showing infinite use, he can still use it infinitely and without fuel (i.e: blood.) Nobody has shown an infinite use of their powers because their powers are not infinite. By that logic Ghirahim has infinite strength because he's never shown a limit, and that's what you need to understand. It's not my claim to prove; it's yours, and you need to get on it. Please prove Kain can use the dimension reaver in the way you describe.

The wraith blade is more or less a extension of Raziels will, Raziel never intended to devour it then, again your ignoring me so I dont know why I am posting to this, your just repeating yourself over and over, we can all do that, maybe ill just quote my previous posts every time you make one.

Do you know why I'm repeating myself? I'd say it's mostly because I'm asking you questions you aren't answering, so I have to ask again if I want an answer. If you quote your previous posts it'll just be more of you dodging questions. What are the Wraith Blades feats? Actually, is this even relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? As I recall the original discussion involved Raziel only knocking Kain back a few feet, which indicated he was holding back there.

No, we know the castle blew up, we dont know why but Ganon is the biggest culprit.

Evidence suggests otherwise. Midna was the one with the weapon, which she was using immediately before the castle exploded. This still isn't relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain right now.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Those are the same motion, though. There's really no difference aside from the arbitrary. Yeah, that's why Raziel tried to kick it, right? No, it quite clearly shows that Raziel tried to open the door, failed, then unlike you tried to kick it and failed. At that point he had a reason to use more strength, and still failed to open the door. Low showing...

Because that is the maximum for Raziel. You can't claim it's higher just because you decided Raziel wasn't trying. I'm not saying Ghirahim kicked it down so much as I'm saying he charged through it like the scene shows. If you haven't seen Ghirahim use his hands and feet you're missing rather vital parts of his fights.

No, I'm not saying that teleportation covers distance physically. I'm asking you to prove that teleportation means infinite distance, which you have not yet done. I think the point you're missing is that I'm not really arguing right now. I'm urging you to get your argument together and prove it. You're claiming things you have no evidence for, and until you get that evidence there's not much I can do right now.

That is the very definition of No Limits Fallacy. You honestly seem to be suggesting that despite Kain not showing infinite use, he can still use it infinitely and without fuel (i.e: blood.) Nobody has shown an infinite use of their powers because [b]their powers are not infinite. By that logic Ghirahim has infinite strength because he's never shown a limit, and that's what you need to understand. It's not my claim to prove; it's yours, and you need to get on it. Please prove Kain can use the dimension reaver in the way you describe.

Do you know why I'm repeating myself? I'd say it's mostly because I'm asking you questions you aren't answering, so I have to ask again if I want an answer. If you quote your previous posts it'll just be more of you dodging questions. What are the Wraith Blades feats? Actually, is this even relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? As I recall the original discussion involved Raziel only knocking Kain back a few feet, which indicated he was holding back there.

Evidence suggests otherwise. Midna was the one with the weapon, which she was using immediately before the castle exploded. This still isn't relevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain right now. [/B]

Erm no...and, he never even tried to open the door. He attempted to open it with the kick, then he kicks it harder and it flies off its hinges. He doesnt use much more effort to move over the giant obelisk either, it would be a low showing if Raziel audiably groaned like Link, Bowser and other characters while struggling and shaking against the door, this only seems to happen in your mind.

I didnt decide, the game did. Theres no "charge" shown, the only thing ive seen him use his hands for are to catch links blade, I have yet to see him smash anything down.

Yes you are, your claiming teleportation has a maximum distance, distance it does not technically even cover.

Erm no, a no limits fallacy is when you claim a power or ability has no limit to its power, there are many limits to kains powers but the number of times he can use them has never been considered in the games, justl ike how many times Kratos can use super strength, Dante his speed or Link his skill with the bow. And no, that would be a no limit fallacy. I like how you try and claim a no limit fallacy against something that isnt while using the example of a real one.

Yes I do, because you cant actually form an argument against most of these points and somehow think your "doubts" for certain things automatically mean I have to prove every random doubt wrong. Thats not how argumnet works.

Not really, evidence suggests Midna thrust a magic spear, thats it.

Well that wall busting feat would make him the stronger of the two by a fair amount.

Nothing to his durability though. His base form can deflect Link's MS slashes and his armour form trumps that. I mean, Demise* get him struck by lightning and most of all smash him around without him breaking.

*Demise being the original Ganon and Dorf would make him at GG strength. Girahim's body must be crazy tough to take these hits in his stride.

As his most of his attacks wont be effective [eg blood moves or damaging his body] the only thing Kain can do to win is strike at the center of his chest. Do they have knowledge of each other?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Erm no...and, he never even tried to open the door. He attempted to open it with the kick, then he kicks it harder and it flies off its hinges. He doesnt use much more effort to move over the giant obelisk either, it would be a low showing if Raziel audiably groaned like Link, Bowser and other characters while struggling and shaking against the door, this only seems to happen in your mind.

Are you you still ignoring Raziel pushing against the door with his claws and failing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s
It is part of the cutscene that Raziel pressed up against the door with both hands, failed, tried to kick the door, failed again, and only on the third try managed to knock it only a meter. Shouldn't it have gone flying if your sun core nonsense was worth anything? Further, no, you're seriously trying to Raziel wasn't using any effort, and basing this only on a grunt? Honestly, all Raziel did there was tip some stone, you still calling that impressive?

I didnt decide, the game did. Theres no "charge" shown, the only thing ive seen him use his hands for are to catch links blade, I have yet to see him smash anything down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvAst00-FZ0#t=13m45s
Just look at it. The wall simply explodes outwards and we see Ghirahim where the the rubble was, laughing. You can't deny that he busted through that, tossing the debris in the process. Ghirahim is blatantly stronger than Kain, since Kain still has no real strength feats. Why would Ghirahim even be using his arms or legs here, and why does that matter? All he's going to do is teleport up to Kain and cut him in half.

Yes you are, your claiming teleportation has a maximum distance, distance it does not technically even cover.

Prove your claim, please. Otherwise, it's just a no-limits fallacy you're trying to claim as fact.

Erm no, a no limits fallacy is when you claim a power or ability has no limit to its power, there are many limits to kains powers but the number of times he can use them has never been considered in the games, justl ike how many times Kratos can use super strength, Dante his speed or Link his skill with the bow. And no, that would be a no limit fallacy. I like how you try and claim a no limit fallacy against something that isnt while using the example of a real one.

That is exactly what you are doing, though. Of course, now you're claiming that Kratos and Dante would never get tired and Link would never be fatigued, which I would appreciate if those weren't also No-Limits Fallacies. Fact is, the game shows a limit, you need better evidence for why Kain can teleport as you describe.

Yes I do, because you cant actually form an argument against most of these points and somehow think your "doubts" for certain things automatically mean I have to prove every random doubt wrong. Thats not how argumnet works.

Is this irrelevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? Yes, yes it is. Is "can you prove that?" a legitimate question? Yes, yes it is.

Not really, evidence suggests Midna thrust a magic spear, thats it.

Evidence shows the castle exploding immediately afterward, thereby suggesting that the spear thrust destroyed the castle. This is how evidence works.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Are you you still ignoring Raziel pushing against the door with his claws and failing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcZ28gZyNJo#t=3m48s
It is part of the cutscene that Raziel pressed up against the door with both hands, failed, tried to kick the door, failed again, and only on the third try managed to knock it only a meter. Shouldn't it have gone flying if your sun core nonsense was worth anything? Further, no, you're seriously trying to Raziel wasn't using any effort, and basing this only on a grunt? Honestly, all Raziel did there was tip some stone, you still calling that impressive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvAst00-FZ0#t=13m45s
Just look at it. The wall simply explodes outwards and we see Ghirahim where the the rubble was, laughing. You can't deny that he busted through that, tossing the debris in the process. Ghirahim is blatantly stronger than Kain, since Kain still has no real strength feats. Why would Ghirahim even be using his arms or legs here, and why does that matter? All he's going to do is teleport up to Kain and cut him in half.

Prove your claim, please. Otherwise, it's just a no-limits fallacy you're trying to claim as fact.

That is exactly what you are doing, though. Of course, now you're claiming that Kratos and Dante would never get tired and Link would never be fatigued, which I would appreciate if those weren't also No-Limits Fallacies. Fact is, the game shows a limit, you need better evidence for why Kain can teleport as you describe.

Is this irrelevant to Ghirahim vs. Kain? Yes, yes it is. Is "can you prove that?" a legitimate question? Yes, yes it is.

Evidence shows the castle exploding immediately afterward, thereby suggesting that the spear thrust destroyed the castle. This is how evidence works.

Yes because having actually played the game, I know he does it to almost every surface you push him against, it does not activate the scene like you believe it does. And no its not part of the cutscene, cutscene starts at 3:48 when the black bars appear top and bottom.

Raziel has earth core pressure at the very tip of his claws, so if he slashed the door in the cutscene and it didnt get damaged, then you would have a point. Raziel wasnt using any effort because we dont see him do so, anything we see for Bowser, Link etc shows effort, grunts, their bodies shaking etc, Raziel struggles more against Kains one arm, than he did when easily toppling the obelisk.

First, Kain could react to thingd at fracitions of a second, so no, Kains going to counter and cut G in half, second, he may just let the blade connect because youve yet to show a feat of actual strength, the whole ambigious "he was standing the debris, so he clearly used his hands or physical strength to bust it!" is a no go.

I explained before theres no "no limit" fallacy, no more than there is in the number of swords G can summon, or how many times G can teleport.

I never said they would never get tired, but their actual power itself, the ability to do those feats does not disapear, if I said Kratos only showed that strength for ten minutes in one scene therefore, he can only use his great strength for 10 minutes, I would be making a daft claim like how someone can only teleport so much.

Theres no immediatly, the transition is neither clear and the growl is the most immediatn thing, no castle bust.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because having actually played the game, I know he does it to almost every surface you push him against, it does not activate the scene like you believe it does. And no its not part of the cutscene, cutscene starts at 3:48 when the black bars appear top and bottom.

Raziel has earth core pressure at the very tip of his claws, so if he slashed the door in the cutscene and it didnt get damaged, then you would have a point. Raziel wasnt using any effort because we dont see him do so, anything we see for Bowser, Link etc shows effort, grunts, their bodies shaking etc, Raziel struggles more against Kains one arm, than he did when easily toppling the obelisk.

I have have played the game, though. That doesn't really invalidate it so much as it proves the point. Raziel fails to open doors, and it's a specific plot point that he can't get past obstacles that his strength would make trivial. It all comes down to his myriad low showings. Didn't your math get proven faulty a while back? I don't think you should be clinging to it like that if that's the case, and Raziel did struggle tipping the obelisk, not sure why you're saying he didn't.

First, Kain could react to thingd at fracitions of a second, so no, Kains going to counter and cut G in half, second, he may just let the blade connect because youve yet to show a feat of actual strength, the whole ambigious "he was standing the debris, so he clearly used his hands or physical strength to bust it!" is a no go.

No, he really can't, since Kain has no real speed feats if you don't want to be a hypocrite about several things. Ghirahim's proven to be faster in any case via his charge across the bridge, so he's got the speed advantage in addition to strength. Since we saw Ghirahim break through the wall, we know he's stronger than Kain or Raziel, though. It's not really ambiguous that Ghirahim did it, either. Why you downplay?

I explained before theres no "no limit" fallacy, no more than there is in the number of swords G can summon, or how many times G can teleport.

Yes, there is. It'd be a No-Limits Fallacy to claim otherwise. Ghirahim's number of swords is arbitrarily high, but I would never claim it's infinite. Same with the teleport, he's got to run out eventually, it's just unlikely he'll run out before killing Kain. You just need to prove that Kain can teleport as you describe, without the long charge time that requires him to kill things. I believe this point was about distance anyway, as you still need to prove that Kain can go farther than two meters with his short ranged teleport.

I never said they would never get tired, but their actual power itself, the ability to do those feats does not disapear, if I said Kratos only showed that strength for ten minutes in one scene therefore, he can only use his great strength for 10 minutes, I would be making a daft claim like how someone can only teleport so much.

That's not what I'm claiming, though. Sounds like a strawman. All I'm asking is that you prove Kain can teleport farther and more often than the game shows, because the game has put a specific limit on the power. You should be happy, since Link now has a fatigue limit, too.

Theres no immediatly, the transition is neither clear and the growl is the most immediatn thing, no castle bust.

Duh, it's during and after that. There's a whole scene change there, it's not going to look immediate like that. Fact is, Midna was still the only one seen to attack, Ganon was specifically seen to not attack. There is no other option here.