Lord Girahim vs Kain

Originally posted by The Scenario
I have have played the game, though. That doesn't really invalidate it so much as it proves the point. Raziel fails to open doors, and it's a specific plot point that he can't get past obstacles that his strength would make trivial. It all comes down to his myriad low showings. Didn't your math get proven faulty a while back? I don't think you should be clinging to it like that if that's the case, and Raziel did struggle tipping the obelisk, not sure why you're saying he didn't.

No, he really can't, since Kain has no real speed feats if you don't want to be a hypocrite about several things. Ghirahim's proven to be faster in any case via his charge across the bridge, so he's got the speed advantage in addition to strength. Since we saw Ghirahim break through the wall, we know he's stronger than Kain or Raziel, though. It's not really ambiguous that Ghirahim did it, either. Why you downplay?

Yes, there is. It'd be a No-Limits Fallacy to claim otherwise. Ghirahim's number of swords is arbitrarily high, but I would never claim it's infinite. Same with the teleport, he's got to run out eventually, it's just unlikely he'll run out before killing Kain. You just need to prove that Kain can teleport as you describe, without the long charge time that requires him to kill things. I believe this point was about distance anyway, as you still need to prove that Kain can go farther than two meters with his short ranged teleport.

That's not what I'm claiming, though. Sounds like a strawman. All I'm asking is that you prove Kain can teleport farther and more often than the game shows, because the game has put a specific limit on the power. You should be happy, since Link now has a fatigue limit, too.

Duh, it's during and after that. There's a whole scene change there, it's not going to look immediate like that. Fact is, Midna was still the only one seen to attack, Ganon was specifically seen to not attack. There is no other option here.

If anything, my math has been the only one proven. I recall mathing Kains strength, people thought it was outrageous and so I went to several people who were unbias to the subject who proved not only was I on the right lines, but I was making Kain weaker than he actually was. So if anything, the est of the forums reasoning was in more error.

Show me his "struggle", I dont see his body shaking with effort, grunts or strains like I can see in most of the characters you support. If anything, both I and others have noticed that Raz did it as if it was just another block thats hes done throughout the games.

Charge across the bridge, where? and thats not reactions, and what hypocrite statement is that? You trying to claim that Kains in-sequence animation is a mechanic? Also, it is ambigious of how he did it, we only know he did.

Why does he "have" to run out? So your actually argueing every character in games vs, will eventually lose their great powers after a number of uses? thats not a no limit fallacy to claim they do not. What charge time? theres no canon charge time, if this is a gameplay matchup then Kain can reform from bats from any wound...and ive disproven your belief that teleports have a limited distance with math.

Yes you are in some sense, your claiming that something Kain does even easier, and without using any known source of energy outside of his own genetic powers hes gained like TK than Kratos, will for some unkown reason suddenly not work? Thats daft. Link always had a fatigue limit whether the mechanics were there or not, wheras Kain has never in the canon become fatigued after teleporting.

During? how can it be during? we hear a growl...thats it, we dont hear any ear spliting explosion to drown it out. UNless your saying the energy sort of consolidated during the second or so the growl played and then exploded, this is like what you said before, "slitting your writs with Occams Razor", I admit that was a good line.

Also what do you mean "he was seen not to attack", he wasnt really seen at all, the fact Midna moved her spear forwards proves nothing, especially when we know she ends up defeated and Ganons the winner, gains a horse and his orignal form.

Originally posted by Burning thought
If anything, my math has been the only one proven. I recall mathing Kains strength, people thought it was outrageous and so I went to several people who were unbias to the subject who proved not only was I on the right lines, but I was making Kain weaker than he actually was. So if anything, the est of the forums reasoning was in more error.

After that, though, several discrepancies were discovered in that math, among them some conversion problems and underestimating the size of Raziel's claws. CC in particular exposed several of these and disproved it with math you don't seem willing to argue. Maybe you could re-check the math when it's called into question, instead of just repeating it?

Show me his "struggle", I dont see his body shaking with effort, grunts or strains like I can see in most of the characters you support. If anything, both I and others have noticed that Raz did it as if it was just another block thats hes done throughout the games.

It's the part where, after Raziel tips the block slightly, he has to change positions to push it over. Were it really effortless, he could have simply tipped it in one motion. Instead, he had to switch to a better position to make it easier. Mostly that, and there's really no indication it was effortless, either. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, after all. In any case, Ghirahim still has the better feat with the wall than anything Kain has.

Charge across the bridge, where? and thats not reactions, and what hypocrite statement is that? You trying to claim that Kains in-sequence animation is a mechanic? Also, it is ambigious of how he did it, we only know he did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=44s

It's right after he blows through the wall, and much faster than anything Kain has done. Hence Ghirahim is faster than Kain.

Why does he "have" to run out? So your actually argueing every character in games vs, will eventually lose their great powers after a number of uses? thats not a no limit fallacy to claim they do not. What charge time? theres no canon charge time, if this is a gameplay matchup then Kain can reform from bats from any wound...and ive disproven your belief that teleports have a limited distance with math.

What? Lose their powers? No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that there's a limit somewhere. Magic runs out, people get tired, ammunition gets spent, this is a basic fact of anything not-Omnipotent, and claiming that any of it is infinite is, again, a fallacy. The charge time where Kain has to fill a meter, obviously; you want a gameplay ability you should play by its rules, or at least prove it can do what you say with actual evidence. And Kain's bat form would be fine if it wasn't contradicted in cutscene when Kain dies via heart removal. When did you prove that again? As I recall you simply told me to go look up "distance" and claimed that was proof enough. It wasn't. Of course, you're also claiming that teleports don't cover distance without support. Then I've proven that teleports do have range limits by showing actual examples of teleports with range limits. Blink, Dimension Door, Nightcrawler, ringing a bell?

Yes you are in some sense, your claiming that something Kain does even easier, and without using any known source of energy outside of his own genetic powers hes gained like TK than Kratos, will for some unkown reason suddenly not work? Thats daft. Link always had a fatigue limit whether the mechanics were there or not, wheras Kain has never in the canon become fatigued after teleporting.

And that known energy source is? It's the blood Kain has to collect by feeding the reaver, of course! I'm not saying it would suddenly not work, either, I'm simply pointing out that it's a very limited ability in-game, and you have nothing that says otherwise. Still, Link's never really become fatigued in canon before Skyward Sword; that is, in fact, the same exact thing you're arguing here. I'm just asking you to show Kain using it without its canon limitation, but you can't because that limit is inextricably bound to the ability.

During? how can it be during? we hear a growl...thats it, we dont hear any ear spliting explosion to drown it out. UNless your saying the energy sort of consolidated during the second or so the growl played and then exploded, this is like what you said before, "slitting your writs with Occams Razor", I admit that was a good line.

Also what do you mean "he was seen not to attack", he wasnt really seen at all, the fact Midna moved her spear forwards proves nothing, especially when we know she ends up defeated and Ganons the winner, gains a horse and his orignal form.

As you pointed out before, there is a flash of lightseen both inside and outside the castle a moment before it explodes. Hey, perfect opening for a bit like that, though it still indicates Ganon wasn't doing much because he was growling instead anything else. Midna thrusting with spear proves she destroyed the castle, I mean there was even a small delay between the hit and the destruction on that barrier, too. Heck, we know from the barrier that using that attack exhausts Midna to the point of unconsciousness so Ganondorf didn't actually have to do anything in order to win that fight. Midna knocked herself out attacking him. It fits pretty well.

Originally posted by The Scenario
After that, though, several discrepancies were discovered in that math, among them some conversion problems and underestimating the size of Raziel's claws. CC in particular exposed several of these and disproved it with math you don't seem willing to argue. Maybe you could re-check the math when it's called into question, instead of just repeating it?

It's the part where, after Raziel tips the block slightly, he has to change positions to push it over. Were it really effortless, he could have simply tipped it in one motion. Instead, he had to switch to a better position to make it easier. Mostly that, and there's really no indication it was effortless, either. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, after all. In any case, Ghirahim still has the better feat with the wall than anything Kain has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJBMUyekvhk#t=44s

It's right after he blows through the wall, and much faster than anything Kain has done. Hence Ghirahim is faster than Kain.

What? Lose their powers? No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that there's a limit somewhere. Magic runs out, people get tired, ammunition gets spent, this is a basic fact of anything not-Omnipotent, and claiming that any of it is infinite is, again, a fallacy. The charge time where Kain has to fill a meter, obviously; you want a gameplay ability you should play by its rules, or at least prove it can do what you say with actual evidence. And Kain's bat form would be fine if it wasn't contradicted in cutscene when Kain dies via heart removal. When did you prove that again? As I recall you simply told me to go look up "distance" and claimed that was proof enough. It wasn't. Of course, you're also claiming that teleports don't cover distance without support. Then I've proven that teleports do have range limits by showing actual examples of teleports with range limits. Blink, Dimension Door, Nightcrawler, ringing a bell?

And that known energy source is? It's the blood Kain has to collect by feeding the reaver, of course! I'm not saying it would suddenly not work, either, I'm simply pointing out that it's a very limited ability in-game, and you have nothing that says otherwise. Still, Link's never really become fatigued in canon before Skyward Sword; that is, in fact, the same exact thing you're arguing here. I'm just asking you to show Kain using it without its canon limitation, but you can't because that limit is inextricably bound to the ability.

As you pointed out before, there is a flash of lightseen both inside and outside the castle a moment before it explodes. Hey, perfect opening for a bit like that, though it still indicates Ganon wasn't doing much because he was growling instead anything else. Midna thrusting with spear proves she destroyed the castle, I mean there was even a small delay between the hit and the destruction on that barrier, too. Heck, we know from the barrier that using that attack exhausts Midna to the point of unconsciousness so Ganondorf didn't actually have to do anything in order to win that fight. Midna knocked herself out attacking him. It fits pretty well.

No discrepancies were discovered though, their claimed as discrepancies and as usual, people hop on the bandwagon, CC fell short on his argument on the math and as for the claws, he added at best a few mm's because he calculated it as a cone, nothing pierces Kain skin so a whole cone did not touch him, only the very tip.

Thats not a struggle of strength then, thats a problem concerning his weight, Raziel himself only weighing less than a human. And no, as I said stone only has a very low pascal rating, and you have nothing suggesting G can move the wall physically. Looks like a dash, about equel in speed to Kains dash he does to moebius/raziel.

And theres nothing to "spend" concerning Kains powers, no more than there is for someone to run out of the ability to control minds or disrupt souls, or manipulate strength. You brought up examples of teleports that have a limit, thats actually mentioned as part of the plot in the games/stories their in, Nightcrawler has to be able to percieve or know where hes going for example. Also I like how you dodged Girhahims lack of proof he can teleport often or use pwoers more often by implying "hes got more than enough to beat Kain" when the same can be said for Kain, he does not have to do it unlimited amount of times.

There is no energy source, apart from the reavers own magic, nobody other than you would sit there and apprently argue a magic weapon losing its powers suddenly, yet you wont use the same logic for your own characters, ive never seen you mension this for the mastersword or Samus' guns. The limit is bound only to the gameplay mechanics, the opposite is true where Kain can only strike people more than once and do combos in gameplay mechanics because in canon he would chop Sarafan in confetti.

Whether you "belive" it fits well or not, I belive it fits better that Ganon used the power hes shown before, similiar colour and lightning to bust his own castle which hes apprently done before (it always seems to get destroyed when hes defeated or at a whim) and then theres the fact he wins. We know the spear jab did nothing though, thats a fact since we actually hear its effect, a low growl, no explosion.

^Technically unless Kain's flesh is not fleshy but stays completely rigid, ie metal, than his flesh would have been pushed in, making a cone contact... just sayin'.

So what's his teleport's range limit?

Well it didnt get pushed in or bruised at all, skin has a certain elastic quality to it, Kains is at the level where theres no mark or stretch from Raziels force. Thats a pretty major feat tbh as well but we seem to only argue base pressure resistance.

Also ime going through that with Scenario, ime not going to argue the same point with two different people, I never do that unless someone has a really interesting case.

Also what on earth are you doing in this thread? get to the other threads you need to reply in at once you naughty lad or papa BT will tan your hide! 😛

Theeerrreeess absolutely no way to tell without good seventh gen graphics, a close-up on Kain's face with the scene being slowed down to see the effects. And his skin must be elastic or else he couldnt move.

Just saying, if Kain can't 'port to.... the Andromeda Galaxy, then it has a limit of what its been shown to do.

D; b-but that requires way more reading than this...

Its elastic, just vastly stronger than regular skin, which makes sense because it would have to scale with his actual durability, if Kains skin stretched as much as a humans yet had this durability you would probably get something that looked like Asura's attack on the fat god entity in the trailers weve been seeing where he stretches all the way through without breaking the ksin. Also, I was refering to the SR 2 intro, theres no bruise or indentation on Kains skin during the attacks or after, Kain seems to absorb most of this. I mean, if it had dented Kain, there should also be a bruise because even if you cant pierce the skin, causing pressure on the blood would make a bruise but theres none on Kain.

Well yes that is a limit, a limit of Kains knowledge and perception, I never said there was no limit at all. But its not limited just because you can only teleport X distance, or Kain chooses to teleport X distance. It makes logical sense that someone cannot teleport somewhere that they have never been, heard of or known about. But in a vs, I would say Kains abiltiy to teleport has more than enough range on a logical basis. Does not really matter anyway because he can teleport more than once so even if he could only teleport 1 meter per port, he could do it 100-1000 times if he wanted to cover said area. Its not like theres anyone who can halt teleportation.

Actually it would only cause a dent just like touching a finger to your cheek. Skin curves in, makes a larger contact area.

So with wiki and a telescope he can teleport to Pluto? And cant he only port like 5 times in a row?

Well if you were touching gently, if Kains skin curved/dented exactly the same as a humans but has only his durability and no other scaling factor he would look like the fat guy out of Asura, with a dent in him, as if he had just had liposuction and lost a ton of fat. Either that or the skin of his body would look like a wave was crossing it and hed turn to jelly.

I dont know, I think you have to actually be able to visualise where your going, or have to have actually been there in some way before. Not sure Kain has access to wiki and a strong enough telescope so thats kinda moot but he can see a fair enough distance for teleportation to be more than useful enough in a vs.

Per cast of dimentional teleport ,5 times in a row per spell is pretty good though....whats wrong with 5 teleports?

Not if he has bones and muscle. The only way his skin would not dent is if it was far tougher than the attack aka like stabbing metal. But we have no proof that it made no dent at all.

We got plenty of pics of the Moon to visualize an image, 'port there? A 10m port is nearly as equal, though why are we to believe that his DF port has a range further than been shown? IIRC it works different to his standard 'port.

Though you meant he would be doing a thousand snap 'ports in a row without re-casting.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No discrepancies were discovered though, their claimed as discrepancies and as usual, people hop on the bandwagon, CC fell short on his argument on the math and as for the claws, he added at best a few mm's because he calculated it as a cone, nothing pierces Kain skin so a whole cone did not touch him, only the very tip.

That's your claim. I saw several actual discrepancies that you didn't address, and so until you actually get around to supporting yourself with evidence all you did was say CC was wrong without anything backing you. Simple fact is he used evidence to prove his point, you didn't counter with evidence of your own. You should at least re-check your math to prove you are correct, as currently it has quite a few problems with it.

Thats not a struggle of strength then, thats a problem concerning his weight, Raziel himself only weighing less than a human. And no, as I said stone only has a very low pascal rating, and you have nothing suggesting G can move the wall physically. Looks like a dash, about equel in speed to Kains dash he does to moebius/raziel.

Except for Ghirahim moving the wall physically. The only alternative, magic, is sorely lacking Ghirahim's obvious and signature diamond patterns, and we see Ghirahim standing right where the wall had been before he jumps in. Ghirahim's dash covered much more distance than Kain's, and covered Kain's distance faster. Point being Ghirahim has much higher mobility in addition to a faster teleport.

And theres nothing to "spend" concerning Kains powers, no more than there is for someone to run out of the ability to control minds or disrupt souls, or manipulate strength. You brought up examples of teleports that have a limit, thats actually mentioned as part of the plot in the games/stories their in, Nightcrawler has to be able to percieve or know where hes going for example. Also I like how you dodged Girhahims lack of proof he can teleport often or use pwoers more often by implying "hes got more than enough to beat Kain" when the same can be said for Kain, he does not have to do it unlimited amount of times.

Except the blood that the reaver is fed, and it is quite possible to "run out" of mind control and soul powers if used too often. It's usually not a problem for most characters because they don't hit their limit or can rest between uses, but Kain is a special case due to his limit being 5 before he has to recharge the reaver. Nightcrawler has to know where he's going and that location has to be within 2 miles, for example. With Kain, he's only shown a meter or so and that's his shown maximum. I didn't think I dodged the Ghirahim point, as he really does have more than enough showings and does in fact teleport all day every day. He teleports in cutscene roughly 16 times, and that's not even counting all the times he teleports while fighting you. Kain's problem isn't limited teleports, though. His problem is needing to feed the reaver before he can even do it.

There is no energy source, apart from the reavers own magic, nobody other than you would sit there and apprently argue a magic weapon losing its powers suddenly, yet you wont use the same logic for your own characters, ive never seen you mension this for the mastersword or Samus' guns. The limit is bound only to the gameplay mechanics, the opposite is true where Kain can only strike people more than once and do combos in gameplay mechanics because in canon he would chop Sarafan in confetti.

Don't strawman, I never said the reaver would lose its powers suddenly. It would have to build them p first. You are aware that neither the Master Sword nor most of Samus' guns have that kind of thing? Actually, scratch that, I have done this for both of them. Link needs full health to fire sword beams in most games, and I have stood by that. He needs time to charge a skyward strike. Samus needs phazon to use the hyper beam and I've never claimed otherwise. She needs a second for a charged shot and ammo for missiles and certain beams. Heck, she needs to run to build up power for the Speed Booster. Mario needs star power for special moves. Dante needs to charge his Royal Release, and needs devil energy to use Devil Trigger. Captain Titus needs to build his rage for the purity seal to work. I have never claimed that any of them could use these powers infinitely, and I would, in fact, object to the suggestion that they could. Don't claim I haven't used that logic for my own favored characters, because I have, and I'm applying it to Kain. No full health, no sword beam; no phazon, no hyper beam; no star power, no special move, no royal guard, no royal release; no fury, no purity seal; no blood, no dimension reaver.

Whether you "belive" it fits well or not, I belive it fits better that Ganon used the power hes shown before, similiar colour and lightning to bust his own castle which hes apprently done before (it always seems to get destroyed when hes defeated or at a whim) and then theres the fact he wins. We know the spear jab did nothing though, thats a fact since we actually hear its effect, a low growl, no explosion.

And I say it fits Midna, because she's used that power before, and similar color and light, and busted a castle sized barrier. And then there's the fact that using the Fused Shadows exhausts her the point of unconsciousness. Then spear even showed a delayed effect before, on the barrier.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's your claim. I saw several actual discrepancies that you didn't address, and so until you actually get around to supporting yourself with evidence all you did was say CC was wrong without anything backing you. Simple fact is he used evidence to prove his point, you didn't counter with evidence of your own. You should at least re-check your math to prove you are correct, as currently it has quite a few problems with it.

Except for Ghirahim moving the wall physically. The only alternative, magic, is sorely lacking Ghirahim's obvious and signature diamond patterns, and we see Ghirahim standing right where the wall had been before he jumps in. Ghirahim's dash covered much more distance than Kain's, and covered Kain's distance faster. Point being Ghirahim has much higher mobility in addition to a faster teleport.

Except the blood that the reaver is fed, and it is quite possible to "run out" of mind control and soul powers if used too often. It's usually not a problem for most characters because they don't hit their limit or can rest between uses, but Kain is a special case due to his limit being 5 before he has to recharge the reaver. Nightcrawler has to know where he's going and that location has to be within 2 miles, for example. With Kain, he's only shown a meter or so and that's his shown maximum. I didn't think I dodged the Ghirahim point, as he really does have more than enough showings and does in fact teleport all day every day. He teleports in cutscene roughly 16 times, and that's not even counting all the times he teleports while fighting you. Kain's problem isn't limited teleports, though. His problem is needing to feed the reaver before he can even do it.

Don't strawman, I never said the reaver would lose its powers suddenly. It would have to build them p first. You are aware that neither the Master Sword nor most of Samus' guns have that kind of thing? Actually, scratch that, I have done this for both of them. Link needs full health to fire sword beams in most games, and I have stood by that. He needs time to charge a skyward strike. Samus needs phazon to use the hyper beam and I've never claimed otherwise. She needs a second for a charged shot and ammo for missiles and certain beams. Heck, she needs to run to build up power for the Speed Booster. Mario needs star power for special moves. Dante needs to charge his Royal Release, and needs devil energy to use Devil Trigger. Captain Titus needs to build his rage for the purity seal to work. I have never claimed that any of them could use these powers infinitely, and I would, in fact, object to the suggestion that they could. Don't claim I haven't used that logic for my own favored characters, because I have, and I'm applying it to Kain. No full health, no sword beam; no phazon, no hyper beam; no star power, no special move, no royal guard, no royal release; no fury, no purity seal; no blood, [b]no dimension reaver.

And I say it fits Midna, because she's used that power before, and similar color and light, and busted a castle sized barrier. And then there's the fact that using the Fused Shadows exhausts her the point of unconsciousness. Then spear even showed a delayed effect before, on the barrier. [/B]

Show me those discrepencies, it seems youve not even read his post, youve jumped on the bandwagon. Go and argue his point you think I didnt counter if you belive in him so much. There is no problems, re-check what math? if apprently quoteing two completyl different sources of math, then claiming their different is creating a discrepency then anyone can do that, maybe ill quote random piecies of math from the forum and say just because their diffrent to others their all wrong? lulzy.

Not seen, we dont see anything, if theres diamond patterns or G hitting the wall behind the wreckage then we dont see it either way. Erm no, G covered about half the bridges length, which was about 10-15 meters max as a whole, before the other person countered him and he did all this in 2 seconds, Kain does about 3/4 meters in .5 seconds, so half the bridge in 2 seconds is about 3.7m/s vs Kains 9m/s. And dimentional port is quicker than anything G has done and on top of that is a combat port, G never uses his port in combat from what I have seen.

The Reaver drinks blood but theres no proof it strengthens the blade or goes anyway. It beens drinking blood long before the emblems were on it, its a specific enchant on the blade, its a vampiric sword. There is no limit though because the charge does not exist, your making things up from mechanics, double standards are here for you now. The feeding reaver thing seems to be your fallacy ad nauseum, reposting the whole gameplay mechanic every time you mension this. Also Kain does teleport throughout his games consistently, G teleports a few times in a scene, Kain teleports over and over in Soul reaver, he teleports a few times in defiance, 5 times per Dimentional port (its more than 5, depending on how many enemies are on screen iirc).

It seems to me your playing about with the no limit fallacy, claiming theres "more than enough" for a character you like but apprently Kains going to run out of all his powers....randomly in a KMC vs? wut....

Your implying it does, because thats the power of the reaver/emblem, why would it suddeny lose the power to do what its supposed to be able to do? just because Kain didnt hit someone recently? lol....your using mechanics. Dante does need devil energy because its mentioned by Jester in the actual games, I am assuming most if not all of these cases your briniging up is a lot more than just an in-game mechanic, I dont belive Dante has to collect purple devil stars to use his DT or regenerate it either...also what about the plasma gun? you seemed to be claimingshe can use it as often as she likes, we never argued ammo for that? what about her suit? it must run on something....or does it activiate on an unlimited power source?

The spear actually struck the barrier, and the delayed effect wwas shown and heard, not this time, infact theres no proof she struck anything.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Not if he has bones and muscle. The only way his skin would not dent is if it was far tougher than the attack aka like stabbing metal. But we have no proof that it made no dent at all.

We got plenty of pics of the Moon to visualize an image, 'port there? A 10m port is nearly as equal, though why are we to believe that his DF port has a range further than been shown? IIRC it works different to his standard 'port.

Though you meant he would be doing a thousand snap 'ports in a row without re-casting.

I think the fact we dont see a hole, bruise or dent proves he was not dented?

Because ports dont have range unless specified, logically they dont, only a universe giving a reason why a magical teleport that does not weaken the user would have a limit on range. Since technically, Teleport cuts out the "distance" and in the dimentional teleports case, Kain uses a dimentional door to hop through and out the other side somewhere else, so hes not really covering distance as molecules either as some may assume.

I never said in one cast, i was implying that he could do as many as he liked, if he has to recast what does it matter? it takes less than half a second, or barely under a second for him to cast the other teleport.

Impossible to see without FF-level graphics, a close up and slower than it was. Really think something like this is visual in a scene like that?

Isnt that a no-limits fallacy?

Eh, matters for people faster than him, not so much here. Then theres the energy thing Scene's on... wait, swear 'meters' were sorted out before. (Off-topic?)

What do you mean "FF level", its an FMV not the games graphics so if the devs wanted to do something they typically could if it was what they wanted kinda like how the stone he smashes Raziel on with Tk breaks far more realistically than PS1/2 graphics in game would allow, we dont need to see it closer or slower, Kains body has not changed or moved when we see Raziel hit. This is what a strike from a human can do;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7HDgv8Zzg#t=1m1s

Kains body does not visiblty move at all at any level, wheras even without the slowdown you can see the guys chest move. Kain tanks Raziels sharp pressure like a punch and this is thousands times the pressure a human can create with a punch, the fact Kain is not moving like a jelly proves hes got some crazy absorbtion.

A no limits fallacy is using a claim from somewhere like for example Kains repel shield being invincible and saying it is in all fights. I already outlinned a few more logica limits like perception of an area. Distance does not come up concerning teleport, only that they can cover distance without needing to travel it physically.

Not really, he only needs to teleport once to be anywhere within a fair distance of them, where they cant predict, within fractions of a second he could be tens of meters even using the dimentional port and assuming its only got a few meters range. Theres no one who could catch up to this, especially if Kain chooses the sky as his "escape" route.

Yeah Ive seen it, the graphics arent good enough to show whats needed. And even so youre missing some points; due to the angle/distance from the face/speed, even if it was live action you still wouldnt be able to see him make a dent.

>____________> Urrrrrmmmm....... 'we dont need it closer or slower' then showing me a 'close up' vid shot in 'slow-motion'.............?

But do we know that?

Yeah any decent speedster can cover that far faster.

You could argue that for most games, the graphics arent good enoguh so the feat obviously isnt there! Also why do you keep bringing up face? Ime talking about the SR2 intro, we see Kain quite clearly getting pounded up against the wall, same with the claws. Kains body does not move at all, his skin is fine, hell his clothing does not budge, Kains as solid as a rock which also covers why he only travels the short distance he does, unless you argued kains power to move his feet without actually moving as shown at the end of Defiance on moebius gives him some sort of friction anchor.

It proves huge waves of force cover a persons body when hit at "human" level, if Kains skin has no more elasticity than human leve, then his whole body should have been spinning like a top.

Do we know what? We know a teleport does not cover distance, Kains not even in this dimention while he teleports using the dimention reaver and teleport transports you from one area to another without moving.

Cover what? If they somehow knew exactly where Kain was going to go, in what direction, with nothing but the .2/.3 or so seconds of Kain actually being there between teleports to catch him? nobody argued on games vs can do that atm. Nor can they fly at any decent speed either so Kain could just go up instead of anywhere else.

Rest of the top part didnt make sense.. anyway, face as thats where the Raz struck and where the dents in the skin would be. Remember? Its what were talking about.

Chalked up to graphics limitation. They can barely do that in todays games.

Yeah, but has demonstrated anything further than a meter to suggest otherwise?

50m away, .2s to use the move.. anyone with 250m/s speed with related RT could get to him in this time.

Raziel does not hit Kain in the face in the Sr2 scene though, and do what exactly in todays games? show a dent? or show clothing falling off, or Kains body shaking? ofc graphics can do those things, maybe not the reverberation part but I have seen people claim Dantes regen as nigh instant just because a wound on his body, or on his clothing was not rendered which is worse imo.

If they were like the flash or something and could go from zero to 250m/s then yes maybe, again they would have to know where he is and find out in that .2 seconds, if he can be anywhere from 50m away in a 360 degree angle or in the sky, this opens up a ton of time for Kain. The more time he has, the more time he can make ridiculous distance.

..wherever he hits him, we're looking for the small dents his claws make the instant they strike, and no game is that detailed in a scene like that. Even irl you couldnt tell from the angle and distance we are from it. Its like getting someone to quickly poke someone with a pen 3m away from you. You wouldnt see the dents.

Has he demonstrated anything to suggest otherwise? :I

I could name you a couple dozen characters far below Flash that can react and cover that distance in that time.

Shouldnt be small if hes got human skin/elasticity. He should look like a glove.

Has what demoed otherwise?

I guess those people have zero to max speed powers and precog to know where hes going to be before he does as well?