Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gurren Lagaan honestly strikes me as kind of stupid, but we're sort of derailing the thread, lol.
Heh, its actually surprisingly well thought out imo. Particularly with the physics and logic behind certain parts towards the end.
I wouldn't say its stupid, but it is very over the top, passionate and loud.
I've crushed that "she couldn't hold Zeratul back" argument so many times that I'm tired of looking at it. Stop it.
Anyway, yes she wins; nothing that's been presented about her here hasn't already been posted by me already, etc etc.
That aside, WH40K is always interesting. Honestly, they wouldn't even be able to beat the GE in a conventional fight unless they're on the ground,, and the GE is pretty light in the sci-fi tier list.
Originally posted by ScreamPasteThe last time we had this discussion you essentially said the equivelent of "yeah okay so she was toying with him and wasn't trying to kill him but still he shouldn't have broken out". That doesn't make sense and isn't an argument. The sheer fact that she was toying with him completly invalidates any slight on her for failing to contain him. Again, we've been over that a few times now.
Not once have you done this. The first time I've seen actual proof of her being powerful at all is in this thread.
Originally posted by NemeBroGalactic Empire. Star Wars.
What is GE Blax?God Emperor?
The only reason the Galactic Empire would actually win is due to being much better logistically (Due in part to much more reliable FTL travel) though.
I mean, if you count all of 40k though, the Necrons would crush the Empire so bad it's funny.
Their anti-tank weaponry now has enough energy stored inside to vaporise a planet when released at once.
Not even countng the galaxy's biggest light bright, which allows them to make any star in the galaxy supernova with a push of a button.
Originally posted by NemeBroThat's exactly why. It takes the fastest ship[s in WH40K damn near a year to travel purely from one side of a sector to another. By contrast your average ship in star wars can travel across the entire galaxy in a few days. The disparity is ridiculous.
[B]The only reason the Galactic Empire would actually win is due to being much better logistically (Due in part to much more reliable FTL travel) though.
I mean, if you count all of 40k though, the Necrons would crush the Empire so bad it's funny.Their anti-tank weaponry now has enough energy stored inside to vaporise a planet when released at once.
Not even countng the galaxy's biggest light bright, which allows them to make any star in the galaxy supernova with a push of a button.
I'm not sure how that's an auto-win button considering the GE has similar tech. Suncrusher can destroy solar systems by making suns go supernova with a single shot; death star obviously, you've got the galaxy gun which can fire a shot from one side of the galaxy to the other that moves at star wars lightspeeds (which is like 20 times the speed of light), and detonates planets, etc etc. Thing about GE tech is that they all have hyper drives though, which is kinda the deciding factor.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That's exactly why. It takes the fastest ship[s in WH40K damn near a year to travel purely from one side of a sector to another. By contrast your average ship in star wars can travel across the entire galaxy in a few days. The disparity is ridiculous.
Indeed, for the sake of grimdark the Imperium's FTL capabilities have to be relatively limited.
I'm not sure how that's an auto-win button considering the GE has similar tech. Suncrusher can destroy solar systems by making suns go supernova with a single shot; death star obviously, you've got the galaxy gun which can fire a shot from one side of the galaxy to the other that moves at star wars lightspeeds (which is like 20 times the speed of light), and detonates planets, etc etc. Thing about GE tech is that they all have hyper drives though, which is kinda the deciding factor.
Haha, no. Necron ships can travel to anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously.
They literally have a Tomb World that can destroy any star in the galaxy with the push of a button. You push the button, the star supernovas.
A single Doomsday Cannon, if all of its energy is released at once, vaporises the planet it happens to be on. That would be like an AT-AT blowing up and taking out the planet.
Hell, the Necrons have a handheld weapon called a Tachyon Arrow that fires a wee sliver of metal at FTL speeds that can punch through a mountain.
The difference between everything you named and what I named is partly that the Necrons mass-produce a lot of this.
Originally posted by deadliestfan
Alright just the Psionic storm....its much stronger then it is in the game, being able to instantly kill organics and tear apart mass battle-cruisers"“The marines and firebats continued to dish out destruction in self-defense, but one of the robed Protoss Templars climbed onto a pile of rocks. Raising his three-fingered hand to the seky, he summoned an awesome Psionic Storm that battered the Wraiths into confusion, slamming the single-man fight together, driving them down as if they had been hit by a huge flyswatter.
Massively damaged, the battlecruisers and the remaining Wraiths tried to pull away, but from the other side of the valley, a second High Templar called yet another Psionic Storm that hammered them from the east. Only one of Battlecruisers and three wraiths managed to pull away from the dangerous valley and leaving damaged and destroyed Terran vessels strewn all across the battlefield”-Starcraft: Shadow of The Xel’Naga pg 208-209
Psionics storms do relatively little damage to BCs in game
Another Quote from Mothership:" Erekul's eyes glowed icy blue, and he bowed his head, gathering his psionic energy. They came at him, a furious whirlwind of hate. He threw his arms wide, opening the floodgates. The zerg writhed, their bodies breaking and tearing. More poured through the door, choking it with their numbers. Erekul brought his psionic energy to bear on the largest of the slavering hydralisks, tearing its brain apart."
Now bear in mind these are Protoss, but since you have said that her spells in game are cannon and Kerrigan's Psi Storm appears to be exactly the same as the Protoss's in Starcraft 1, one would expect there results to be similar if not the same.
Also In the new released cutscene she demonstrated clear use of force grip, stopping Prince Valerian from breathing.
Sarah is described as a Class 12 (PRE INFECTION!) , the most powerful psionic in human history, and since it is proven that she has telekenesis and since a class 10 (Nova) managed to take down a skyscraper with hers...I don't think it is much of a stretch to think that Kerrigan can raise hell with hers.
She is an impecable close range duelist (a quote of which ill put up once I can find the Queen of Blades book) besting two Protoss (each with HUNDREDS of years of training/experience, and the best of their factions, and an extremely skilled human rather easily)
In addition, Kerrigan has the ability to instantly destroy an opponent by causing their heads to "come apart"(Psychic Attack). She first demonstrated this on her mother and to a lesser extent her father accidentely at age 7, before later deliberately using on Major Rumm later in life.Basically, Unless Kain can survive having his mind instantly blown up things are not looking good for him.
Finally based on what I have read up on Brood War, Queen of The Blades, and other cutscenes, I truly believe that Kerrigan was not taknig the fight with Zeratul seriously, and may have been toying with him like she did all throughout Brood War
I have also read those books, and Dukes forces in Shadow of the Xel Naga were getting fairly badly pounded across the board, that said it takes some time for them to cast a psionic storm and it works in a specific area, thanks to the nature of teleportation Kain could be behind her, on top of her etc. Hes also far more durable than those targets in the books.
Also, his head blown up? I dont know, I could argue it but more importantly whether ot not it would effect him much since he is super durable and has his own TK. Her bodyweight is not high, he could launch her through the air, it takes some willpower to bring to bear a psionic storm.
One teleport and a claw slash, thats all Kain would honestly need.
Spoiler:
Also I dont know about you, but I am the only member on the forum who has actually played and knows the LoK games, considering I also love Starcraft and have played the games and read a collection of the books I am, unlike many here talking out of ignorance
Elder God Demonbane is kinda strong too 😄 (My 2 cents about the whole strong characters from strong verses stuff)
As for the fight hmmmm....I wasn't aware Sarah was actually that powerful...Kain is quite the powerhouse himself though...as for right now I'm leaning towards Sarah but hmm if Kain acts first..gah...I'll comment later on after thinking some more...
Originally posted by Burning thoughtSpoiler:
Also I dont know about you, but I am the only member on the forum who has actually played and knows the LoK games, considering I also love Starcraft and have played the games and read a collection of the books I am not, unlike many here talking out of ignorance
grrr corrected myself
"that said it takes some time for them to cast a psionic storm"
It didn't seem to take that long for the High templar to summon in it either quote, honestly . And yea there is a field, but it is much bigger then in the game.
Psychic attack is quite different then Psionic Storm, and seems to be quite instantaneous (based on my interpretation Sarah Kerrigan accidentely destroying her parents, and Nova's group Psychic attack) . Having psionic strength or TK really doesn't seem to be a factor in resistance, as Kerrigan did the same thing to her Ghost trainer Rumm (it only took a while because she was deliberately messy while doing it).
Also her Telepathy is impressive enough to read and control protoss minds (see the Dark Templar 1000 year old matriarch, and Zeratul struggles to keep her out in a in-mission cut scene) . Unless I am shown some proof that Kain's mind is stronger then them, this could mean that Kerrigan knows Kain's plans before he does anything. She also has experience with teleporting enemies, to an extent (Zeratul) .
"Her bodyweight is not high, he could launch her through the air,"
Two factors to consider here:
1. Her extremely powerful regeneration
and
2. Which I fully admit may be speculation on my part. The class ten Nova was able to slowly lift herself in the air, and in the beginning of the final mission All in Kerrigan seems to be able to slow her ascent to the ground. Perhaps she could do the same here?
Also there are many other abilities, that while in game as cannon spells haven't been talked about.
Her Razor storm which looks even more lethal then the Psionic
Her Psionic Shadow ability to spawn 4 clones of herself, all capable of attacking.
A force grip like power
Spawn broodlings, which instantly kills in the game (need to see if this has a book source) .
And her ability to, in time, summon the rest of the Swarm.
Finally I know Kain can turn invisible but I believe that would be nullified by her detector ability.
Originally posted by deadliestfan
"that said it takes some time for them to cast a psionic storm"It didn't seem to take that long for the High templar to summon in it either quote, honestly . And yea there is a field, but it is much bigger then in the game.
Psychic attack is quite different then Psionic Storm, and seems to be quite instantaneous (based on my interpretation Sarah Kerrigan accidentely destroying her parents, and Nova's group Psychic attack) . Having psionic strength or TK really doesn't seem to be a factor in resistance, as Kerrigan did the same thing to her Ghost trainer Rumm (it only took a while because she was deliberately messy while doing it).
Also her Telepathy is impressive enough to read and control protoss minds (see the Dark Templar 1000 year old matriarch, and Zeratul struggles to keep her out in a in-mission cut scene) . Unless I am shown some proof that Kain's mind is stronger then them, this could mean that Kerrigan knows Kain's plans before he does anything. She also has experience with teleporting enemies, to an extent (Zeratul) .
"Her bodyweight is not high, he could launch her through the air,"
Two factors to consider here:
1. Her extremely powerful regeneration
and
2. Which I fully admit may be speculation on my part. The class ten Nova was able to slowly lift herself in the air, and in the beginning of the final mission All in Kerrigan seems to be able to slow her ascent to the ground. Perhaps she could do the same here?Also there are many other abilities, that while in game as cannon spells haven't been talked about.
Her Razor storm which looks even more lethal then the Psionic
Her Psionic Shadow ability to spawn 4 clones of herself, all capable of attacking.
A force grip like power
Spawn broodlings, which instantly kills in the game (need to see if this has a book source) .
And her ability to, in time, summon the rest of the Swarm.
Finally I know Kain can turn invisible but I believe that would be nullified by her detector ability.
They sort of climb to the peak, hold out their arms and concentrate, its not something they can call on a whim in a split second, Templar cant toss out psionic storms like machineguns can they, it takes a lot of power to do. Point I was making is, said storm would be useless against a teleporter who could be on top of her in an instant, unless she uses the storm on herself.
Rashagal or w/e her name was, may have been corrupted by kerrigan but Marcus, who could command large groups of warrior priests could barely read the weakest of Kains mind (young kain), this is Elder Kain so at best, she may know his plans but thats not the same as precognition, things will be going faster than she can read them. Zeratul didnt actually try and kill her with teleportation though, Kain will and Kains is a bit quicker and less obvious than Zeratals which is like black smoke.
Its still a power that could halt the use of her more powerful abilities and ensure Kain has distance between them if he wants distance. Shes going to have a hard job targeting him if she is thrown, even if she cna stop herself.
Kain has time ****ery, he can slow down time to a crawl, or follow up with incapcitate which freezes people in time completly. Kerrigan has never dealt with such powers, same with soul devouring.
Infact, I would argue Kain cannot necesserily turn invisible, logically possible but his mist form is more of a disguise.
Originally posted by NemeBroShut your ****ing mouth, you hobo.
[B]Indeed, for the sake of grimdark the Imperium's FTL capabilities have to be relatively limited.
Haha, no. Necron ships can travel to anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously.
What's the source for this, can I get a page number? Obviously that ability must be limited, otherwise a "single" necron ship making it to Mars wouldn't be unprecedented.
They literally have a Tomb World that can destroy any star in the galaxy with the push of a button. You push the button, the star supernovas.How is this a threat to the Imperial fleet? I wasn't aware they hang out next to stars. That aside, this tombworld wouldn't even get the chance to do anything. Is it is a world is it not, meaning it can't move? Funny; the Imperial navy has multiple doomsday devices that can destroy a planet with a push of a button, one of which can hit any planet anywhere in the galaxy at any time, and is also mobile and capable of FtL travel, unlike this tomb world.
A single Doomsday Cannon, if all of its energy is released at once, vaporises the planet it happens to be on. That would be like an AT-AT blowing up and taking out the planet.Source for this?
And, again, the Imperial navy has no shortage of planet busting technology itself.
Hell, the Necrons have a handheld weapon called a Tachyon Arrow that fires a wee sliver of metal at FTL speeds that can punch through a mountain.A single salvo from a star destroyer will vaporize multiple colonies.
The difference between everything you named and what I named is partly that the Necrons mass-produce a lot of this.And their inability to keep up with the GE's mobility is what would make all that irrelevant.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What's the source for this, can I get a page number? Obviously that ability must be limited, otherwise a "single" necron ship making it to Mars wouldn't be unprecedented.
Four Necron ships made it to Mars, only one was able to land. They had to kind of, you know, slow down before making planet-fall.
Iori Delta Tove, a planet-sized space station that could do such neat shit as rewrite history (People's memories would spontaneously change, ancient documents would be rewritten, entire planets would shift and alter their orbits, etc), was able to instantly phase to different sections of space instantaneously, it should be noticed all this was done while it was not active.
And now of course the Necrons can use Dolmen Gates, hacked portals into the Webway, that by definition allows instant travel.
How is this a threat to the Imperial fleet? I wasn't aware they hang out next to stars. That aside, this tombworld wouldn't even get the chance to do anything. Is it is a world is it not, meaning it can't move? Funny; the Imperial navy has multiple doomsday devices that can destroy a planet with a push of a button, one of which can hit any planet anywhere in the galaxy at any time, and is also mobile and capable of FtL travel, unlike this tomb world.
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. The Necrons could destroy any solar system in the galaxy, including ones with important logistics command bases, and whatnot.
Oh and I suppose that the GE now all of the sudden know which Tomb World, out of millions in the galaxy, has this weaponry? O:
Also, nice dodging the point. Namely that the limits of Necron technology go far beyond that of the GE's.
Source for this?
In the new Necron codex, a Necron Overlord gives an Ork Warboss some Doomsday Cannons in exchange for not bothering him (His Tomb World wasn't awake yet). Cue the Ork Warboss three months later trying to work it, cracking a containment core, and vaporising the planet. This is what one of their basic anti-tank weapons can do on accident.
And, again, the Imperial navy has no shortage of planet busting technology itself.
Cyclonic Missiles are pretty cool I guess.
A single salvo from a star destroyer will vaporize multiple colonies.
Why are you comparing a large starship's firepower with what amounts to a pistol? A really awesome pistol mind you, but a pistol nontheless. A single salvo from a starship of the Imperium of Man can annihilate continents. Hell, a single Deathstrike Missile can destabilise the tectonic activity of a planet with the explosion that can cause crippling Earthquakes over the planet. The World Engine was a super awesome Necron Tomb World that could vaporise all life on a planet with a single firing (And fly, mind you), and was impervious to the efforts of an entire sector's fleet plus an assembled mixed-chapter battlefleet of Spehss Mehreens.
And their inability to keep up with the GE's mobility is what would make all that irrelevant.
Haha, no... The Necrons, along with arguably the Eldar, are the only faction in 40k that has FTL travel on par with or superior to the GE.
Originally posted by NemeBroI'm pretty they actually just got blasted out of the sky due to the Imperium's anti-air being awesome.
Four Necron ships made it to Mars, only one was able to land. They had to kind of, you know, slow down before making planet-fall.
That's nice. The Empire's good at killing planet sized objects.
Iori Delta Tove, a planet-sized space station that could do such neat shit as rewrite history (People's memories would spontaneously change, ancient documents would be rewritten, entire planets would shift and alter their orbits, etc), was able to instantly phase to different sections of space instantaneously, it should be noticed all this was done while it was not active.
And now of course the Necrons can use Dolmen Gates, hacked portals into the Webway, that by definition allows instant travel.Don't feed me that bullshit, you republican.
To quote the Eldar codex:
"The arterial passages are large enough to carry starships, though most tunnels only allow strikeforces of Eldar on foot or small vehicles to pass. Eldar spacecraft can travel through the warp itself, although this is a slow and dangerous process for them. As a result the Eldar travel infrequently to places that lie more than a few light-years from their webway portals. Webway journeys are relatively fast, enabling space fleets to move easily between the network's major gateways. This enables the Eldar to move swiftly to places directly connected by the labyrinth dimension, but makes it extremely difficult for them to reach worlds that have no gate into the network."
- Eldar 4E Codex, page 13
Emphasis mine.
So wait, what's that? Apparently only major roads in the webway can transport ships through them, meaning the majority of the webway is useless for FTL fleet travel?
Wait, what? Webway travel is relatively fast? I thought webway travel was instantaneous! D: You can't go faster than instantaneous, so how can webway travel be only relatively fast, since "relative" implies it could be faster?
So in conclusion: The idea that one can use the webway to "travel to anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously" is bullshit. The Necrons ability to travel through the galaxy is just like the Eldars: extremely limited. Star Wars hyperspace travel wipes the floor with all conventional traveling tech in the WH40K universe, sans whatever obscure super weapons that can teleport like the one you listed earlier. But even that's matched by things like the Emperor's ability to teleport people and objects from one side of the galaxy to the other using his force storms. Oh, and he can also attack other planets using his force storms... from across the galaxy. This is the same warpstorm that tears chunks out of a planets landscape that are visible from space and rip apart time/space with their intensity.
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. The Necrons could destroy any solar system in the galaxy, including ones with important logistics command bases, and whatnot.
Oh and I suppose that the GE now all of the sudden know which Tomb World, out of millions in the galaxy, has this weaponry? O:
Oh and I suppose that the [Necron tombworld] now all of the sudden know which [solar system], out of [200 billion] in the galaxy, has this [imperial fleet hovering around it]? O:
Try to keep up, son. This is academic.
Also, nice dodging the point. Namely that the limits of Necron technology go far beyond that of the GE's.
All that technology won't keep it from getting its ass kicked, hence the point is irrelevant and not worth addressing.
In the new Necron codex, a Necron Overlord gives an Ork Warboss some Doomsday Cannons in exchange for not bothering him (His Tomb World wasn't awake yet). Cue the Ork Warboss three months later trying to work it, cracking a containment core, and vaporising the planet. This is what one of their basic anti-tank weapons can do on accident.
Cyclonic Missiles are pretty cool I guess.Buuut inferior.
Why are you comparing a large starship's firepower with what amounts to a pistol?
Because a pistol is going to be useless in a space battle.
A single salvo from a starship of the Imperium of Man can annihilate continents. Hell, a single Deathstrike Missile can destabilise the tectonic activity of a planet with the explosion that can cause crippling Earthquakes over the planet. The World Engine was a super awesome Necron Tomb World that could vaporise all life on a planet with a single firing (And fly, mind you), and was impervious to the efforts of an entire sector's fleet plus an assembled mixed-chapter battlefleet of Spehss Mehreens.And a single shot from the death star can annihilate a planet. A single shot from the sun crusher can annihilate a solar system. Palpatine can suck the life force out of an entire planets population and can toss warp storms across the galaxy that visibly scar planets. The center point station can fire a tractor beam that destroys planets and is also capable of transporting them across the galaxy. It can also create gravity wells that slows down everything in its range to a complete stop, even a planets orbit and ships moving hundreds of times faster than light. What's the size of this gravity well that it can create? The size of a galaxy. You've got the galaxy gun which moves hundreds of times faster than light and also fires bullets that move hundreds of times faster than light, and rip apart planets.
We can sit here and dick measure with feats all day, but you're missing the point. The destructive capabilities become academic once you reach the ability to wipe out a planet. You may have a slingshot that can destroy half the galaxy, but how is that going to save you if the planet you're on suddenly explodes? How is that slingshot that can destroy half a galaxy going to help you if the slingshot's shot only moves at 30 miles an hour and your enemy is an F-16 moving at mach 2? Hell, a stick of dynamite can destroy a fighter jet, but good luck hitting a fighter jet that's flying through the air by throwing a stick at it.
Which is the point that you're missing. In inter-stellar warfare, the only thing that matters is range and mobilty. Woah, good shit the Necrons can make a sun explode. That's cool, except it would take an exploding sun 8 minutes for the energy to reach Earth, and that's assuming that the explosion is moving at the speed of light, which realistically it wouldn't be, it'd be moving slower. So unless the GE fleet was standing literally right next to the sun, they'd have at least several minutes to react to an exploding sun. It takes 30 seconds to make a hyperspace jump. Exploding sun ability? Nullified.
Comparatively, the GE's closest similar ability has a range of "the general galaxy", but unlike the tombworld's attack, the explosion is instantaneous; it can't be dodged or outrun, and even if it could, tombworlds can't move. So how do you defend against that? You can't. Having a pistol that can kinda sorta pierce a mountain and a mass produced bean bag that can destroy twenty solar systems by tossing it are completely useless against an enemy that can effortlessly outmaneuver you and outrange you.