Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliber
Lets not forget Elektra humiliating Wolvie paralyzing him and outmaneuvering him
And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra
Originally posted by Silent GuardianId actually place Elektra above Cassandra. Not by far but still. And there was context to that fight. It was a cheapshot and Logan was both weakened and mindcontrolled. Most of the time Logan is either evenly matched or trashes top tier MAs. Not like Cass doesnt have bad showings. As for Daredevil scan... that's Ennis. No point in explaining anything further.
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliberAnd we all know Cassandra is above Elektra
Originally posted by SamZED
Id actually place Elektra above Cassandra. Not by far but still. And there was context to that fight. It was a cheapshot and Logan was both weakened and mindcontrolled. Most of the time Logan is either evenly matched or trashes top tier MAs. As for Daredevil scan... that's Ennis. No point in explaining anything further.
you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.
As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.
Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.
I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily
Originally posted by Silent GuardianThat's IMO ofcourse. TBH I dont care enough to debate. Either way it IS debatable.
you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.
Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.
I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily
Logan gives that impression because he tends to fight like a beast. Why bother jumping around and waste time when you can launch yourself at bullets and kill everyone in a heartbeat? But CIS aside, when Logan puts his mind to it, he's crazy fast. To the point he slices people to many pieces so fast they dont realise what happened to them. So it all comes down to CIS. He's easilly as fast as Cass.
Originally posted by SamZED
That's IMO ofcourse. TBH I dont care enough to debate. Either way it IS debatable.Logan gives that impression because he tends to fight like a beast. Why bother jumping around and waste time when you can launch yourself at bullets and kill everyone in a heartbeat? But CIS aside, when Logan puts his mind to it, he's crazy fast. To the point he slices people to many pieces so fast they dont realise what happened to them. So it all comes down to CIS. He's easilly as fast as Cass.
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.
This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.
Originally posted by Silent GuardianI've never seen those before. BP tooled Logan twice there.
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I've never seen those before. BP tooled Logan twice there.
BP has always seemingly had the edge on Logan in terms of speed and agility. Doesn't necessarily mean he'd beat him in a fight. Logan's certainly stronger and more durable, with the healing factor.
But I was just trying to show how top martial artist who are fast and agile have done against Wolvie. Now I think BP is faster and more agile than Cass (when he has his enhanced abilities), but I don't see it being a big disparity.
Originally posted by Silent GuardianTake a look at his fight with Shang Chi. Or his fight with Cap. Or recent h2h with Iron Fist who is a better fighter than most DC street levelers. Or many other fights in Logan's respect thread. I am sorry but what you do here is called lowballing. I could post scans of Cass having trouble with Tim Drake who is not even a B list martial artist. Every character has poor showings and Logan appeared in many more books than Cass, hence more low showings. But at the end of the day, he's fought and beaten the best of them. And his speed/reflexes feats are among the best in marvel.
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.
The recent Iron First fight was PIS. I don't know which Shang Chi fight your talking about. And are you referring to the fight in wolverine's solo title where he humiliates everyone?
I'm not lowballing Logan I'm just taking an average of his appearances. I try not to ascribe to stat drift
http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/169452588146660156
Tom BrevoortThis is a good example of the phenomenon known as "stat drift", which is something that happens when you start taking the battleboard approach to these characters. 10 tons is considered Spidey's absolute upper limit in terms of strength. And that stat is based on that famous time when he lifted Doc Ock's big doodad off himself in order to get Aunt May her medicine. But that was an extreme heroic measure--typically, Spidey wold have problems fighting guys like the Kingpin, who don't possess any superhuman strength. So while that's his absolute upper limit, his day-to-day average in terms of the strength he uses is somewhere less than that. However, once you had that stat in a Handbook, both fans and creators started using it as Spidey's baseline strength level, which wasn't what was intended. To me, a Spider-Man who can effortlessly hurl cars around takes a lot of the fun and the struggle out of the character--and that drama is more important to me than the 10 tons ranking.
Originally posted by Silent GuardianWhy PIS? There was no plot that required Logan to win. And it's perfectly within Logan's eastablished skill level. Im talking about a fight where Logan takes Shang down in 2 pannels using his skills.
The recent Iron First fight was PIS. I don't know which Shang Chi fight your talking about. And are you referring to the fight in wolverine's solo title where he humiliates everyone?I'm not lowballing Logan I'm just taking an average of his appearances. I try not to ascribe to stat drift
That's not really an average. Bringing up poor performances would work for any other character (excluding Squirrel Girl I guess). Take Slade for example. First he stomps Batman twice, then he barely survives an encounter with Speedy. We shouldn't judge characters by low showings. Logan is an established Marvel MA top tier. Its been so for decades.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Slade had a hard time tagging Cass, then I would assume Logan or Cap would as well.
Yet her average Batman Shiva Nightwing Connor did not have as much trouble as Slade did in his first encounter. And in there second match Cass was having trouble getting to Slade. As their third bout they both went hit for hit on one another.
The average is more important then a one time isolation.
Batgirl beat Shiva, right? Cass only went a few rounds with Dick, but looked a little better. And they only fought twice. Deathstroke having a hard time or frustrated that she was dancing around him. I'll look at the 2 feats. Not saying Cass would actually beat Slade in the long run. Especially DCnU Slade.
