Originally posted by Prep-Man
Batgirl beat Shiva, right? Cass only went a few rounds with Dick, but looked a little better. And they only fought twice. Deathstroke having a hard time or frustrated that she was dancing around him. I'll look at the 2 feats. Not saying Cass would actually beat Slade in the long run. Especially DCnU Slade.
Yes she defeated Shiva but Cass got tagged left and right which is my point. INfact the names I mentioned tagged her and did not struggle as much as Slades first showing with her.
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Wolverine tends to do poorly against upper level martial artists of Cassandras caliberLets not forget Elektra humiliating Wolvie paralyzing him and outmaneuvering him
And we all know Cassandra is above Elektra
Context my friend, context.
Prior to DD punching Wolverine in the throat, Wolverine was fighting both DD and Spidy at the same time... and he was winning. He took out Spider-man in in just a few panels. It wasn't one on one fight, and there is no indication that DD's throat punch managed to incapacitate Wolverine for more than the few seconds shown on panel... and considering in the next issue he gets his abdomen completely incinerated and is still conscious and talking, the most likely turn of events is that he was up and %100 in three panels.
Daredevil ambushes Wolverine, Wolverine puts him in a full nelson in three panels:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2468/marvelcomicspresents151hm4.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpg
Elektra ambushed a mind controlled Wolverine - who was missing part of his soul and minutes earlier was being kept alive by S.H.I.E.L.D tech - while he was engaged in a fight.
FYI Elektra is FAR above Batgirl. She is much stronger. Much faster. More skilled. Telepathic. Plus she has a variety of quasi mystical chi abilities under belt. Elektra would tool Shiva or Cass. Hard.
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
you'd place Elektra above Cassandra really?!? I find Cassandra to be more consistent than Elektra and more dominant against the caliber of opponents she faces quit honestly. Especially considering there weapons and fighting styles.As for speed and maneuverability I'd put Cass much higher than logan. Its ultimately Logan's ferocity and damage soak/healing factor which carries the day.
Yes Logan has some impressive speed feats and dodging feats but for everyone he has I could pull up five instances where he is getting tagged, or shot or blasted you name it.
I find Cassandra's high end feats to be much more consistent. I just can't see Wolverine getting to her easily
I would recommend you peruse the Elektra respect threat or something, because you couldn't be more off base.
Wolverine doesn't get tagged because he isn't fast enough to avoid damage, he gets tagged routinely because he typically doesn't care about avoiding it. It makes as much sense to hold that against his speed as it would to dock Superman for all the times he stands there and lets bullets bounce of his chest. Sure he could avoid them... but why bother, they can't do any real damage to him.
Cass has been tagged by Shiva, Batman, Nightwing, GA, Onyx and numerous street level MAs. The notion that she is too fast (or even as fast as Wolverine) is frankly absurd.
Originally posted by Silent Guardian
Well I respectfully disagree. Look at opponents when he isn't blood lusted. Take Black Panther for instance.This is just one example I could use other examples if you like. But for arguments sake lets say Wolverine is just as fast as Cassandra, which I disagree with. Typically he doesn't always block or evade. Generally speaking he charges in or bull rushes opponents and when he does so skilled opponents have generally taken advantage of that. Why would this time be any different.
Black Panther grabbed Wolverine and judo tossed him. Awesome? Wolverine's done that exact. same. thing. to the freaking Mandarin. Anyone here want to go on record and say that they feel that is Wolverine displaying more skill than the Mandarin?
I love how the scans have been edited here to make Black Panther come off better than he did in the actual fight and the panels where Wolverine catches T'Challa and pins him to the ground is conveniently missing. Subtle!
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Slade had a hard time tagging Cass, then I would assume Logan or Cap would as well.
We've been told expressly that Slade holds back and toys with Cass, and that her move reading doesn't work on him. If he actually fought her to win, he would, and it wouldn't be pretty.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Not by leaps and bounds, though. At least, IMO.
Nightwing is leaps and bounds more skilled than Slade. Cap and Wolverine are in a completely different galaxy. 😎
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We've been told expressly that Slade holds back and toys with Cass, and that her move reading doesn't work on him. If he actually fought her to win, he would, and it wouldn't be pretty.
Hah, no, that's not what was said 🙂
In the first fight, he didn't know who she was, and she did great.
In the second fight, the *only* time he was said to be holding back, she superficially 'won,' holding his sword an inch from his face. Also, she was able to read him during that fight- she just commented that it's hard due to how he moves like a 'choir', but she knew that he was really just luring her to Ravager.
In their last fight, he outright said the only way to fight her was to get inside her head.
Originally posted by Q99
Hah, no, that's not what was said 🙂In the first fight, he didn't know who she was, and she did great.
In the second fight, the *only* time he was said to be holding back, she superficially 'won,' holding his sword an inch from his face. Also, she was able to read him during that fight- she just commented that it's hard due to how he moves like a 'choir', but she knew that he was really just luring her to Ravager.
In their last fight, he outright said the only way to fight her was to get inside her head.
It's exactly what was said.
The first "fight" was just another example of Slade toying with her. She did well because he wasn't trying. The moment he got remotely serious he took out a grenade and took back the disc.
She didn't "win," he wasn't even trying to fight her, he was trying to lure her to Ravager... which he did... so having accomplished what he set out to do... he won. Case couldn't read him. She said he was "Too fast. Too loud. Too much to fallow. The meaning gets lost." She figured out he was toying with her, but that has nothing to do with body reading, that can been was done with normal human perception.
He said the same thing about Ravager... and he has kicked her ass half a dozen times. His statement wasn't true about Ravager, wasn't true about Cass either.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I would recommend you peruse the Elektra respect threat or something, because you couldn't be more off base.Wolverine doesn't get tagged because he isn't fast enough to avoid damage, he gets tagged routinely because he typically doesn't care about avoiding it. It makes as much sense to hold that against his speed as it would to dock Superman for all the times he stands there and lets bullets bounce of his chest. Sure he could avoid them... but why bother, they can't do any real damage to him.
Cass has been tagged by Shiva, Batman, Nightwing, GA, Onyx and numerous street level MAs. The notion that she is too fast (or even as fast as Wolverine) is frankly absurd.
All the characters you mentioned, except for Green Arrow are faster than Wolverine. He isn't quicksilver. There are attacks Wolverine has tried to dodge and been unable to. Some good nerve strikes will really mess up logan
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Black Panther grabbed Wolverine and judo tossed him. Awesome? Wolverine's done that exact. same. thing. to the freaking Mandarin. Anyone here want to go on record and say that they feel that is Wolverine displaying more skill than the Mandarin?I love how the scans have been edited here to make Black Panther come off better than he did in the actual fight and the panels where Wolverine catches T'Challa and pins him to the ground is conveniently missing. Subtle!
LOL way to misinterpret events. Wolverine doesn't catch panther. Panther catches Wolverines wrists/ forearms. Than Wolverine twists his body putting panther on his back.
The whole fight Panther wasn't even goign seriosuly he tells Logan its just a game even though Wolverine is trying to kill him repeatedly.
Quite literally not a one of those characters are as fast as Wolverine let alone faster. Wolverine has significantly better speed feats any of them, he has legitimately superhuman combat speed. Even ignoring things like that he has dodged sneak attacks from Living Lightening, point blank artillery fire from a tank, moved so fast that he can block the barrel of a gun after the trigger is pulled but before the bullet can leave the chamber and the myriad of other speed feats he has that outclass street level humans, Wolverine has legitimate speed blitzes under his belt. He has been timed on panel as taking .038 seconds to chamber and throw a punch. Wolverine is noticeably faster than every single one of those characters, there is a reason why Spider-man had to question whether or not Wolverine was faster than him.
When has Wolverine ever tried to dodge something and fail?
I didn't look up the scans, I was just going from memory and I thought Wolverine caught Panther and reversed him. Not that it matters, it's more impressive that he was able to reverse and pin Panther without a dominate hand hold.
Originally posted by srankmissingninTBH that wasnt really the context of that scene. Wolverine wasnt fighting both Spider-man and Daredevil at the same time. Spider-man wasnt fighting him, he just grabbed him in an attempt to stop him from killing Frank and Logan kicked Peter in the balls. Just wanted to clear this up, because its not the same as fighting and taking someone down. As for that hit having any kind of effect on Wolverine.. Ennis wrote it.
Context my friend, context.Prior to DD punching Wolverine in the throat, Wolverine was fighting both DD and Spidy at the same time... and he was winning. He took out Spider-man in in just a few panels. It wasn't one on one fight, and there is no indication that DD's throat punch managed to incapacitate Wolverine for more than the few seconds shown on panel... and considering in the next issue he gets his abdomen completely incinerated and is still conscious and talking, the most likely turn of events is that he was up and %100 in three panels.
Daredevil ambushes Wolverine, Wolverine puts him in a full nelson in three panels:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2468/marvelcomicspresents151hm4.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/546/marvelcomicspresents151qe0.jpgElektra ambushed a mind controlled Wolverine - who was missing part of his soul and minutes earlier was being kept alive by S.H.I.E.L.D tech - while he was engaged in a fight.
FYI Elektra is FAR above Batgirl. She is much stronger. Much faster. More skilled. Telepathic. Plus she has a variety of quasi mystical chi abilities under belt. Elektra would tool Shiva or Cass. Hard.
Originally posted by srankmissingninThen I guess Spider-man totally owned Wolverine in that fight they had when Spider-man was helping that mutant kid. Took him 2 pannels. 🤣
They were fighting, Spider-man was just put down before he could muster any sort of offense. Pete tried to web Logan, then he tried to restrain him... then he got flip kicked in the nuts. 😉
