Originally posted by Digi
Ok, sure, class 2. Still giving Pete around 7x strength, comparable durability, and while we can't quantify speed the same way we can strength, we know for a fact Pete's faster. Scale it down to a more "human" level and it's easier to see the disparity. Someone who can move maybe 1.5x faster than an in-shape human, at 5x strength, and take 2x the punishment. Those are, even by your logic, conservative advantage estimates (I think each would be more for SM). And this person has basic physical prowess but little training. Now put that person against a trained martial artist (base human)...they'd be overwhelmed eventually. That kind of discrepancy isn't something they'd be able to account for in all but the most perfect and/or forgiving fight scenarios.Also, you're painting away the MA skill in a hypothetical for your own purposes. Do we discount every power of Thor's that goes ignored by 90% of his writers? Until there's an actual retcon, you're just making things up.
Besides, Cap trained Pete briefly as well and he's been at this for years. He is a trained martial artist now, but even before that he wasn't a toddler.
No need for the gifs. I don't mind them, but in context they can be seen as condescending. Let your arguments stand on their own.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Depending on the whims of the writer Spider-man can be anywhere between class 10 - 20. Like you pointed, this allows for the possibility of as low 5x strength disparity between the two characters. Now don't get me wrong, that is a substantial gape but it is not completely insurmountable for a skilled fighter even in the real world, never mind someone of Cap's caliber. Ditto for durability. Just look what powerless 80lbs beanpole Rogers did to those Super Soldiers in h2h.Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). For the sake of debate lets say you are right and Spider-man is 1.5 times or even twice as fast as Captain America, while what Cap has to counter that is undeniably better timing, which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.
I'm not painting away Spider-man's skill. I said it isn't currently much of a factor at it's current level and I can't see it being further developed now that he has his Spider-Sense back. He isn't Anderson Silva, he had a few weeks of kung-fu training. Hell... the first thing that happened when he showed up in Spider-Island was Ms Marvel, Thing and Iron Fist rag dolling him because they assumed he was a random infecty.
George can't be condescending, he is a loser, I just thought it added some levity to the post. Although I do love the irony of the dur smilie master levying charges of condensation. 😎
Originally posted by srankmissingninNO! You said Digi was the dur master!!!! rantingIsn't that what I said? 😮
Spider-Man didn't just pick up fighting skills. Granted, he's relatively recently trained in martial arts in order to compensate for the lack of spider-sense, but Pete's also been fighting people out of his weightclass for years. If you gave any human Parker's powers and a 'couple weeks of hand to hand fighting training', I remain confident that Spider-Man would still steamroll them because, even if his 'professional MA training' is relatively minimal, his actual logged experience keeps him from being listed as a complete noob at hand to hand fighting.
Anyways, point being, with the sheer physical advantages that Spider-Man holds, and the fact that he remains to be at least a competent fighter (in contrast to Cap's demonstrably and significantly super skill), he should take the fair majority out of ten matches in this kind of set up.
It wasn't the spider sense that allowed Pete to get in hits in previous matches, and those hits would come faster and harder in a match where he's not written to pull his punches.
Originally posted by srankmissingninIt really can't. He's just faster. Plain and simple.
Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread).
Originally posted by srankmissingninWhat he did was get the typical "ZOMG how can I possibly punch the super awesome Captain America who is the symbol of the country" treatment. That's all it was. Kung fu. No kung fu. No holding back Spider-man wrecks Cap 10/10. Pounds him into a red smear. And if Cap tries to block with his shield rips his arm off his shoulder. End of story. 😮💨
which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.
Originally posted by SamZED
It really can't. He's just faster. Plain and simple.What he did was get the typical "ZOMG how can I possibly punch the super awesome Captain America who is the symbol of the country" treatment. That's all it was. Kung fu. No kung fu. No holding back Spider-man wrecks Cap 10/10. Pounds him into a red smear. And if Cap tries to block with his shield rips his arm off his shoulder. End of story. 😮💨
If you find you have some free time this holiday season, try reading a Captain America comic. You know that movie that came out this summer? It's based on these comics I'm telling you about. I think you might enjoy his exploits. 😎 😎 😎
Originally posted by Digi98 lb. weakling depowered Cap took down two SSS-enhanced supersoldiers. I can't even begin to quantify the strength/speed/durability advantages they had over him.
Cap has good feats. But how are you accounting for the large degree of difference in speed, strength, and durability? We're talking like 15x in each category, and that's being generous to Cap, saying he's at 1-ton instead of peak human.Cap had a good showing against Pete, they were portrayed a lot closer to equals than they should be imo. But I also think, even if we allow that feat, that everything else favors SM by a heavy margin. Even Pete's mid-range feats trump Caps best in all of the categories mentioned.
If you want, I'll give you 1-2/10. Cap's a great tactician. But that's generous as hell, imo.
Also, Kung Fu makes it unfair. He's still not going to be cap's MA equal of course, but it basically erases the only real trump card Cap has to play in this fight.
Cap's feats against the odds are more impressive. I'm not arguing that Cap is stronger (he's not), or faster (he's not), or that he's more durable sans shield (he's not). He's just more skilled than Spidey by a wide margin and knows him well enough that he controls the fight. Like he does so often against other opponents and as he demonstrated against Spidey.
Lowballing, imo. Spidey's done nothing to suggest he could outfight Cap in a dominating fashion. Outstat him by a fair margin, sure. Outfight, much less, completely outfight? No. Not in the least.
Shang tutoring him for weeks doesn't negate Cap's skill advantage. That's preposterous. Cap was training Spidey pre-Civil War himself. He's an amateur still. Dangerous because of his powers but he's not on a level that prevents him from being outskilled. Cap is one of, if not the best fighters. Spidey has to stand on a high chair to kiss his star-spangled a$$ when it comes to skill.
Originally posted by srankmissingninCo-signed. Every. Part. 👆
Depending on the whims of the writer Spider-man can be anywhere between class 10 - 20. Like you pointed, this allows for the possibility of as low 5x strength disparity between the two characters. Now don't get me wrong, that is a substantial gape but it is not completely insurmountable for a skilled fighter even in the real world, never mind someone of Cap's caliber. Ditto for durability. Just look what powerless 80lbs beanpole Rogers did to those Super Soldiers in h2h.Spider-man is stronger and more durable than Cap, but IMO any speed difference between the two is slight and that can be chalked up to precog afforded to him by his Spider-Sense (which is not active in this thread). For the sake of debate lets say you are right and Spider-man is 1.5 times or even twice as fast as Captain America, while what Cap has to counter that is undeniably better timing, which is what he used to beat on Spider-man in that Civil War fight. He read Spider-man like a book, picked up on his tells, got the timing down, and rolled over him. That's what he'll do here. In pure h2h Steve picks Spider-man apart with perfectly timed shots to nerve clusters and pressure points. Cap is just too skilled.
I'm not painting away Spider-man's skill. I said it isn't currently much of a factor at it's current level and I can't see it being further developed now that he has his Spider-Sense back. He isn't Anderson Silva, he had a few weeks of kung-fu training. Hell... the first thing that happened when he showed up in Spider-Island was Ms Marvel, Thing and Iron Fist rag dolling him because they assumed he was a random infecty.
Originally posted by Enzeru1. So was Cap, because he never fights brutally or to maim/kill unless it's war.
1. Spider-Man was holding back, just like always when he fights people who are beneath his physical stats.2. Spider-Man was holding even more on Captain America, because he respects him. Cap is probably his childhood hero.
3. Spider-Man was holding even more, since he was trying to convince Captain America that Tony is doing the right thing with the registration act.
4. Spider-Man dodged nearly all of Captain America's shield throws.
5. He webbed up Cap's shield to a wall and Cap had to return few hours later, to take his shield again, since he would not be able to break through the webbing.
6. That was not their "only" fight during Civil War.
Take a close look at the last panel of the very first scan. Do you see how Captain America is trying to ambush Spider-Man from behind and how near he is? Didn't do jack to Spider-Man:
2. So was Cap, because Peter's a good kid and great hero he's known for a long time.
3. So was Cap, because he knew Peter was struggling with his conscience and wasn't to blame, Tony was.
4. Because Cap meant to position Spidey right where he wanted him. Spidey even explains this in captions. You should reread the fight provided you haven't torn your copy to pieces in frustration. Fun fact: Cap dodged all of Spidey's webs also.
5. He webbed it up at the cost of nerve shots that partially paralyzed him from the waist down.
6. Cap can land cheap shots with a stealth suit in a superhero fracas also.
What Spidey did is nothing to masturbate over. Sounds like more of the same butthurt Spidey-fan disappointment.
Originally posted by srankmissingninIf you find you have some free time this holiday season, try reading a Captain America comic. You know that movie that came out this summer? It's based on these comics I'm telling you about. I think you might enjoy his exploits. 😎 😎 😎
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Who were all noname cannon fodder. Powerless Spider-man held his own against a bunch of robots who were all exact replicas of sinister six. All that is great but irrelevant here.
98 lb. weakling depowered Cap took down two SSS-enhanced supersoldiers. I can't even begin to quantify the strength/speed/durability advantages they had over him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Calling him an amature is lowballing. He's no Cap clearly but he's a great fighter. Even before all the training. To say otherwise - completely ignore his showings. And comparing Spider-man (the one that fought Steve in CW) and say black-suited Spider-man (the one who fought Kingpin, Kraven and steamrolled most of his rogues gallery over night) is like comparing powerless Steve to a super soldier version. Read him like an open book? Cap's CIS in that fight didnt effect him nearly as much as Spider-man's CIS effected Peter. Steve is a soldier, when he fights he fights. Pete on the other hand was questioning his every move and still doubting if he should be fighting at all. Going all out he'll beat the livving crap outta Steve. Not because of MA skills but experience combined with superior stats. Think Cap's fight with Scorpion but even worse. When its over the only thing Steve will be reading is his hospital bills.
Lowballing, imo. Spidey's done nothing to suggest he could outfight Cap in a dominating fashion. Outstat him by a fair margin, sure. Outfight, much less, completely outfight? No. Not in the least.
Shang tutoring him for weeks doesn't negate Cap's skill advantage. That's preposterous. Cap was training Spidey pre-Civil War himself. He's an amateur still. Dangerous because of his powers but he's not on a level that prevents him from being outskilled. Cap is one of, if not the best fighters. Spidey has to stand on a high chair to kiss his star-spangled a$$ when it comes to skill. Co-signed. Every. Part. 👆
Originally posted by SamZEDLike robots aren't cannon fodder? You're right, fighting robot replicas is completely irrelevant. And if you want to force that issue because replicas are somehow not fodder, Cap's beaten down a Namor clone in H2H. Namor would wreck Spidey in H2H. srankmissingnin and I pointed out 98 lb. Cap vs two SSS super soldiers for a distinct purpose: demonstrating that a physical stat advantage can be all but nullified by Cap's pure skill even if his opponent is many times stronger, faster and durable. He's shown it when the physical stats odds are stacked against him worse than they are with Spiderman. Spiderman's stat advantage is an unextraordinary fact when it comes to Cap.
Who were all noname cannon fodder. Powerless Spider-man held his own against a bunch of robots who were all exact replicas of sinister six. All that is great but irrelevant here.
Originally posted by SamZEDSpidey is an amateur when compared to Cap. Until he starts throwing down with seasoned martial artists on their level in real fights, he'll continue to be. And ya'll conveniently forget that Cap can go all out also. Ya'll also pretend that Steve wanted to fight/destroy Spidey. That was the last thing Cap wanted to do. Let's get things straight, Spidey was the one forcing the confrontation as Cap told him to walk away.
Calling him an amature is lowballing. He's no Cap clearly but he's a great fighter. Even before all the training. To say otherwise - completely ignore his showings. And comparing Spider-man (the one that fought Steve in CW) and say black-suited Spider-man (the one who fought Kingpin, Kraven and steamrolled most of his rogues gallery over night) is like comparing powerless Steve to a super soldier version. Read him like an open book? Cap's CIS in that fight didnt effect him nearly as much as Spider-man's CIS effected Peter. Steve is a soldier, when he fights he fights. Pete on the other hand was questioning his every move and still doubting if he should be fighting at all. Going all out he'll beat the livving crap outta Steve. Not because of MA skills but experience combined with superior stats. Think Cap's fight with Scorpion but even worse. When its over the only thing Steve will be reading is his hospital bills.
There is a reason Cap was working Spidey so hard in that fight. Spidey's hero worship of Cap was not the reason. Spidey didn't pin his beatdown on his unwillingness to hit Cap. Cap knowing Spidey's fighting style and Cap being so skilled that he could exploit it like clockwork was the reason. This was spelled out in black and white. One had nothing to do with the other.
This "Spidey CIS" is red herring horsecrap. It always has been.
Originally posted by Mindset
So we all agree Spiderman wins.
Can't see how he could lose, sans CIS/PIS.
Spideys one character that could work Danny Rand over. His strength alone should be enough to punch through Caps bones when he tries to block, and his speed feats are >>>>> Caps (Hell, they're > Cassandra Cain and Daredevil, who also has superior speed feats to Cap. Dodging wall to wall bullet storms while in mid air and computer guided laser battery's designed to adapt to his movements trumps precision deflection of bullets or matrix style dodging of half a dozen bullets, imo..)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Namor (the original) couldnt even TRACK Spider-man's movement in h2h. Robots are cannon fodder. Just like those super soldiers Steve beat. That was my point. Dont act like a good showing against cannon fodder (even with superior stats) is going to mean anything vs someone like Spider-man. As for CIS, read the inner monologue. He provoked the confrontation because he didnt know what else to do, it was an attempt to not lose the face and what he displayed in that fight was a bastars child of what Spider-man is normally capable of. While Cap fought like he always does. Dont try to compare Steve cutting loose to Spider-man going all out out. There's a huge difference. Steve just becomes more dangerous, Spider-man becomes >>> what he normally is and >>>>>>>>> what he was in that fight with Cap.
Like robots aren't cannon fodder? You're right, fighting robot replicas is completely irrelevant. And if you want to force that issue because replicas are somehow not fodder, Cap's beaten down a Namor clone in H2H. Namor would wreck Spidey in H2H. srankmissingnin and I pointed out 98 lb. Cap vs two SSS super soldiers for a distinct purpose: demonstrating that a physical stat advantage can be all but nullified by Cap's pure skill even if his opponent is many times stronger, faster and durable. He's shown it when the physical stats odds are stacked against him worse than they are with Spiderman. Spiderman's stat advantage is an unextraordinary fact when it comes to Cap. Spidey is an amateur when compared to Cap. And ya'll conveniently forget that Cap can go all out also. Ya'll also pretend that Steve wanted to fight/destroy Spidey. That was the last thing Cap wanted to do. Let's get things straight, Spidey was the one forcing the confrontation as Cap told him to walk away.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yeah, there was. Because "he's the symbol of the whole freaking country!"
There is a reason Cap was working Spidey so hard in that fight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0It was one of the reasons.
Spidey's hero worship of Cap was not the reason.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0That was ANOTHER reason, yes. Never argued that. And that is the case almost every time Spider-man fights experienced martial artists. That's how they put up a fight against him. But if you look at some of the fights it becomes crystal clear that only works as long as Spider-man CIS is involved. With Cap you can multiply that CIS by 10. But whenever he stops holding back that's no longer the case. All those martial artists who gave him trouble can no longer read him as an open book. They get oneshotted or humiliated in prolonged fights.
Cap knowing Spidey's fighting style and Cap being so skilled that he could exploit it like clockwork was the reason. One had nothing to do with the other. Spidey didn't pin his beatdown on his unwillingness to hit Cap. It was spelled out in black and white.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0It's a fact, it was constantly stated over the years and proven many times over. He holds back when he fights supervillains. He holds back when he fights Green Goblin even. More so when he fights heros. And he can barely make himself fight at all when he's facing his childhood hero. And while Steve can read that version of Spider-man he's not surviving a CISless Spider-man. And im not even talking about the current MA Parker. Doesnt matter that he's currently not as skilled as Cap. We all know it doesnt take much to become a MA expert in comics, everyone and their grandma are stated to be experts. I think Hammerhead's bio says he's an expert h2h combatant. And someone like Tony Stark can make Steve break a swet.
This "Spidey CIS" is red herring horsecrap. It always has been.