Originally posted by Kid Kurdydoc ock been one of the few people spideys ever had trouble hitting, and i dont think anyone would place cap on the same level as ock in that regard
The thing is, Spider-Man only needs one good punch and it's game over for Captain America.And since when has Spider-Man trouble hitting his opponents ?
Meh, Cap fighting and taking it to some super soldiers without his own SSS is impressive, but not a fair analogy- those soldiers are built and made to fight exactly like Cap does everyday, and it's no surprise that he would know exactly how to avoid being struck by one.
While he's familiar with Spider-Man's fighting style, the way that Parker moves and strikes isn't nearly as uniform as those soldiers or even Namor (who Steve really has no business taking it to in hand to hand combat, but whatever). Further, unlike nameless cannon fodder, Spider-Man is being treated in this discussion almost as if he doesn't have decades of crime fighting under his scarlet belt. It just comes off as a little crude to suggest that even with doubled speed, durability and what should be an insurmountable gap in strength and agility, that Parker lacks the sheer competence to hold up in a fight against Cap.
I agree, Steve is ridiculously more skilled, but I think Pete passes a threshold of competence as a fighter after which one would need to either become superhuman on a level that competes, or forfeit the battle. He knows how to roll with a punch and he knows how to deliver one, and he remains more than fast, agile, durable and competent enough to ensure that regardless of Steve's skill, he'll always be capable of reacting in some respect before struck.
Which, incidentally, is why nerve strikes sound bogus to me as an argument to be made here.
I realize martial artists like Karate Kid defy this logic, but I think those cases should be left as outliers and not used as an example for comic book fights across the board. I'll probably hear otherwise though.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.
Spideys feats and abilities>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caps feats and abilities.
So the Civil War fight was PIS at it's finest.
The only thing that gives Cap a chance is Spidey's CIS.
Originally posted by h1a8
Spideys feats and abilities>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caps feats and abilities.So the Civil War fight was PIS at it's finest.
The only thing that gives Cap a chance is Spidey's CIS.
The first time was a stalemate (with CA having a slight advantage, especially in the beginning, not so much at the end), the second time Spider-Man was having the upper hand.
Originally posted by Existere
Meh, Cap fighting and taking it to some super soldiers without his own SSS is impressive, but not a fair analogy- those soldiers are built and made to fight exactly like Cap does everyday, and it's no surprise that he would know exactly how to avoid being struck by one.While he's familiar with Spider-Man's fighting style, the way that Parker moves and strikes isn't nearly as uniform as those soldiers or even Namor (who Steve really has no business taking it to in hand to hand combat, but whatever). Further, unlike nameless cannon fodder, Spider-Man is being treated in this discussion almost as if he doesn't have decades of crime fighting under his scarlet belt. It just comes off as a little crude to suggest that even with doubled speed, durability and what should be an insurmountable gap in strength and agility, that Parker lacks the sheer competence to hold up in a fight against Cap.
I agree, Steve is ridiculously more skilled, but I think Pete passes a threshold of competence as a fighter after which one would need to either become superhuman on a level that competes, or forfeit the battle. He knows how to roll with a punch and he knows how to deliver one, and he remains more than fast, agile, durable and competent enough to ensure that regardless of Steve's skill, he'll always be capable of reacting in some respect before struck.
Which, incidentally, is why nerve strikes sound bogus to me as an argument to be made here.
I realize martial artists like Karate Kid defy this logic, but I think those cases should be left as outliers and not used as an example for comic book fights across the board. I'll probably hear otherwise though.
i agree with pretty much all of this. considering spidey an amateur is a bit 'lowballish'. he's fared fine against ironfist and dd clearly acknowledges spidey's superiority. imo his collective strength, speed and durability adavantages>cap's skill advantage. in his fight with logan the skill advantage wasn't all that evident. his fights with dd and his fights with ironfist? same thing. spidey has his OWN style of fighting that incorporates his agility. i can see cap taking a couple, but the overwhelming majority should be spidey's.
Spider-Man isn't a black belt or super proficient in any given style or recognized discipline (barring Kung Fu Spidey as of recent issues), but that doesn't mean he's not skilled. He knows how to hit without being hit, and to be frank, given his massive physical advantages, that's all he really needs to know how to do. I get that people like Cap and Batman make their livings off of "out skilling" metas and even heralds from time to time, but if the physical advantages clearly outweigh the skill disparity, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that Parker can hit harder than Cap, is fast and agile enough to do so even without spider sense, and Cap can't afford to be tagged often (if at all) against a half way serious Pete.
Comics speak for themselves. So do Spidey's own thoughts and comments opn the fight itself. Skill shouldn't be seen as a cure-all that can wipe even the most massive of physical disadvantages cleanly away.
But the reticence to admit that Cap's skill and his uncanny ability to exploit Spidey's fighting style is ignorant. It completely ignores what was portrayed. And this garbage about CIS is red herring garbage anyway. CIS isn't off on this fight anyway. If ymany of you believe that his hero worship CIS is that crippling, well it's on anyway.
This isn't Spiderman vs Firelord PIS. It's Cap vs Spiderman. Cap's dealyt with worse odds where he didn't completely use a person's fighting style against him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comics speak for themselves. So do Spidey's own thoughts and comments opn the fight itself. Skill shouldn't be seen as a cure-all that can wipe even the most massive of physical disadvantages cleanly away.But the reticence to admit that Cap's skill and his uncanny ability to exploit Spidey's fighting style is ignorant. It completely ignores what was portrayed. And this garbage about CIS is red herring garbage anyway. CIS isn't off on this fight anyway. If ymany of you believe that his hero worship CIS is that crippling, well it's on anyway.
This isn't Spiderman vs Firelord PIS. It's Cap vs Spiderman. Cap's dealyt with worse odds where he didn't completely use a person's fighting style against him.
What you don't understand is Spidey is a lot faster than Cap if he wants to be. So using a person's fighting style against them doesn't work if they are faster. Imagine Spidey throwing a punch at Cap from point blank range (3 feet away). Do you think Cap is fast enough to dodge or block the attack? Now because of Spidey's CIS he will hold back and not punch as hard (as fast). But you see what I mean, it's Spidey's CIS that makes this a fight.
What is portrayed has nothing to do with what will happen in a forum fight. You are a great debator but this is your weakness. You fail to see that characters won't operate at sub par showings in a forum (as they do in comics) when facing individuals they really can beat easily.
Comics have jobbing, CIS, plot, for the sake of the story, etc. that dictates the outcome of a battle.
It's best to take true elements of the comic fight as evidence and not the outcome that was based off some false elements.
Originally posted by h1a8Do you disagree that Cap has proven himself capable of knowing Spidey's fighting style so well that he basically controls the fight in spite of Spidey's speed?
What you don't understand is Spidey is a lot faster than Cap if he wants to be. So using a person's fighting style against them doesn't work if they are faster. Imagine Spidey throwing a punch at Cap from point blank range (3 feet away). Do you think Cap is fast enough to dodge or block the attack? Now because of Spidey's CIS he will hold back and not punch as hard (as fast). But you see what I mean, it's Spidey's CIS that makes this a fight.
I don't believe Spidey jobbed to Cap. I don't believe Spidey's loss had anything to do with his hero worship. I don't believe that Spidey's speed is so insurmountable that Cap winning could never be a result of anything else other than Spidey losing for the sake of plot.
Originally posted by h1a8I disagree. I think that's ignorant. It was clearly portrayed that Cap just knows him so well, that he controlled the pace of the fight and worked him. It was Mr. X-ish if that makes sense. Mr. X doesn't have better stats than Wolverine, but when they first fought, he knew what Wolverine was doing before Wolverine knew it. That allowed Mr. X to completely work Wolverine. And you can't ignore that unless you think Cap could never know Spidey that well. Based on Cap's skill, I hardly think anybody would argue that is outside Cap's ability.
What is portrayed has nothing to do with what will happen in a forum fight. You are a great debator but this is your weakness. You fail to see that characters won't operate at sub par showings in a forum (as they do in comics) when facing individuals they really can beat easily.
Comics have jobbing, CIS, plot, for the sake of the story, etc. that dictates the outcome of a battle.It's best to take true elements of the comic fight as evidence and not the outcome that was based off some false elements.
I'm not saying Spiderman's stats can never win over Cap. After all, Cap just lost to the new Venom -- mainly by virtue of his Spidey-like stats. But the clear difference between the two is that Cap knows Spidey, he doesn't know Venom.
And I don't think Spidey's new skills have risen to the level of changing that dynamic completely. Frankly, Spidey's skills seem to change the way he strikes (more precisely, and sometimes with pressure points rather than fists). It hasn't struck me that he moves completely differently. If there is evidence of that, I'd be happy to change my opinion. Because I do agree, that if Spidey's fighting style has completely changed, Cap's in trouble.