Originally posted by Prep-Man
Well, we need to see more of DCnU Batman. It's only been a handful of issues and he's going to face some formidable streets. Nobody and Talon, plus the whole Court of Owls.
NoBody and Talon both beat his ass though, so did *groan* Oneface before he keeled over. Pretty much all Batman has done so far in DCnU is get beat up.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even sans body reading DD is more or less as skilled as Bruce.
i agree it's very close. but i think bats has a slight edge. but you're right, matt's advantages more than make up for the skill edge.
I don't think IF is significantly better than DD, I think he is slightly more skilled than Matt, just like he is slightly more skilled than Batman. But DD has abilities Batman lacks that allow him to pose a bigger threat in melee combat despite being less skilled. Batman vs Iron Fist wouldn't play out anything like the fights between Matt and Danny, Matt's radar sense is a huge boon to his combat abilities.
i agree the fights would be very different. i'd also take dd over danny in straight h2h because of his radar, like i'd take him over bats.
sounds like we're sorta/mostly on the same page regarding the 3. you give the slight egde in skill to danny and matt, i give it to bats but we agree they're close. i attribute the amount you're wrong by to your well-known bat hate. but i forgive you. 😎
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm telling you. DCnU is much weaker than DCU. Superman is midtier at best.
I don't really agree.
Honestly, my impression is that Superman is definitely being showcased as a beast in terms of where he stands with his peers. In DCU continuity, I don't see an early Superman taking on a early GL and Flash with the same level of ease as he did in the pages of Justice League. He's also fairly young in his career, too.
If anything, DCnU seems to be going out of its way to explicitly show Superman being > everyone else whereas DCU showed that at times, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, you think DCnU Superman = DCU Superman?
Not right now, no.
But I do feel DCnU Superman > Byrne's Superman. Given that the DCnU is only five years old in terms of where the modern superheroes stand, I definitely don't think this version of Superman is going to be inferior to DCU's as time progresses. The way his attitude is portrayed as being more aggressive and assertive, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kal winds up getting better feats in time.
Basically, you have to look at it like this:
Current Superman has been Superman for about 5-6 years.
Pre Flashpoint Superman has been Superman for anywhere up to 15-ish years, give or take due to the sliding time scale of comics. Give them the same amount of experience in terms of in-universe time, and any gap will be negligible, if it even exists at all.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not right now, no.But I do feel DCnU Superman > Byrne's Superman. Given that the DCnU is only five years old in terms of where the modern superheroes stand, I definitely don't think this version of Superman is going to be inferior to DCU's as time progresses. The way his attitude is portrayed as being more aggressive and assertive, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kal winds up getting better feats in time.
Basically, you have to look at it like this:
Current Superman has been Superman for about 5-6 years.
Pre Flashpoint Superman has been Superman for anywhere up to 15-ish years, give or take due to the sliding time scale of comics. Give them the same amount of experience in terms of in-universe time, and any gap will be negligible, if it even exists at all.
What about WW? I don't think she can fly right now.
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree it's very close. but i think bats has a slight edge. but you're right, matt's advantages more than make up for the skill edge.i agree the fights would be very different. i'd also take dd over danny in straight h2h because of his radar, like i'd take him over bats.
sounds like we're sorta/mostly on the same page regarding the 3. you give the slight egde in skill to danny and matt, i give it to bats but we agree they're close. i attribute the amount you're wrong by to your well-known bat hate. but i forgive you. 😎
In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character. 😎
In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that "trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!" I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.
I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:
Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...
well... every other human character not named Doom.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
What about WW? I don't think she can fly right now.
WW is probably the opposite case.
Prior to Flashpoint (and that horrendous JMS angle), Diana had been steadily powered up since her (re)introduction during Perez' days. She's back to square one in every sense of the word. We'll have to see how she fares against her peers or other familiar characters in order to gage her, but Superman thinks she's strong, so that's a good start.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really agree.Honestly, my impression is that Superman is definitely being showcased as a beast in terms of where he stands with his peers. In DCU continuity, I don't see an early Superman taking on a early GL and Flash with the same level of ease as he did in the pages of Justice League. He's also fairly young in his career, too.
If anything, DCnU seems to be going out of its way to explicitly show Superman being > everyone else whereas DCU showed that at times, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced.
Being stronger relative to his peers doesn't really remove the possibility that he is weaker in the bigger picture. Which he is. Superman is supposed to be the first superhero, so he has had more experience with his powers than Hal, and lets be honest there is a much easier learning curve to Superman's power set than a Green Lantern ring. And I would say it's not that Superman looked good against GL, it's that GL looked bad.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character. 😎In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that [b]"trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!"
I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:
Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...
well... every other human character not named Doom. [/B]
nice. i can live with that. and i knew you didn't hate batman. 😉
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In my defense I'd like Batman more if he was a better character. 😎In all honesty I'm a Batman fan, if I wasn't I wouldn't read his comics. But what I am not is a mindless Batman fanboy or a causal, so I don't think that [b]"trololololol Batkick! Batman > everything! lawlz!"
I actually read comics, and when I wear a Batman t-shirt it damn sure doesn't have Heath Ledger Joker on it. Reading street level comics is what I do, I know these characters, I know how skilled Batman is, I know where he falls into a skill hierarchy of DC characters and I know it's not on the number one spot, nor is it in the top five. Batman not being the best isn't a slight against his character, it's just the reality things. Marvel has a larger and more diverse street level pantheon than DC does, it would be unrealistic to assume that the best in DC would be the equal of the best in Marvel. I don't let Batman's popularity influence my opinion of the character.I said this before but it's still apt, just swap out Dragon for Iron Fist:
Bruce returned to Gotham when he was 25 after training / traveling for twelve years. That twelve years wasn't solely devoted to martial arts and fighting either, in that period he also became proficient in virtually every field of science (likely got some business / economics degrees considering his day job), and really every possible hobby or activity on the planet. There is plenty of room for humans to better fighters than him. Batman isn't the best fighter and he has never been billed as such. He is the best detective. Other than criminology and his skills as a detective there is someone better than Batman in virtually every field. What there isn't, is a more rounded character. Look at it this way, in terms of martial prowess Batman is Salieri. He is among the top of his field but not on quite on par with prodigies like Mozart (Dragon / Shiva / Turner)... but the thing that you need to remember is that Batman is Salieri in virtually every single field a person could think of. Batman is the sum of his parts, and that sum is above every other human character by a pretty large margin...
well... every other human character not named Doom. [/B]
I agree with most of this, actually.
Batman's intended to be a jack of all trades, and while he is a master martial artist and definitely capable of holding his own against anyone of similiar skill or greater to a point, his character isn't designed to be the most epic fighter of all time. He's a detective, the World's Greatest. Fans and writers tend to forget that, though, when they portray Batgod raping the JLA on his own. 😐
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Being stronger relative to his peers doesn't really remove the possibility that he is weaker in the bigger picture. Which he is. Superman is supposed to be the first superhero, so he has had more experience with his powers than Hal, and lets be honest there is a much easier learning curve to Superman's power set than a Green Lantern ring. And I would say it's not that Superman looked good against GL, it's that GL looked bad.
I respectfully disagree.
Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.
Besides, Superman is purposefully designed to always get better and more powerful with time. Present day Hal > Year One Hal, sure. But that definitely applies to Superman as well.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I respectfully disagree.Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.
This is a good point, but even Johns isn't immune to editorial mandates.
If DC execs say not to chump out Supes, he doesn't get to chump out Supes.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I respectfully disagree.Considering it was Johns' of all people who had Superman handle Hal in that fashion, I think it speaks volumes of where the brass of DC feels Superman stands in the early days.
Besides, Superman is purposefully designed to always get better and more powerful with time. Present day Hal > Year One Hal, sure. But that definitely applies to Superman as well.
Even current 5 years later Hal is kind of a witless smuck in the DCnU though