I dnt remember Dooku pushing ROTS Jedi Anakin back with the exception of that one kick (even if it was an awsome kick). In fact after the force attacks removing Obi-Wan from the fight twice, it was Anakin who was driving Dooku back one on one both times.
I also dnt remember Dooku kicking Anakin in the face. I only remember the one kick by Dooku.
Bearing in mind the CW fights, my guess would be that ROTS Anakin would have defeated Count Dooku even without Obi-Wan's aid.
The RotS novel as seen from Dooku's perspective has Anakin go through three separate mental phases in their duel. After Dooku stops fooling around and knocks out Kenobi, Anakin becomes angry and starts legitimately pushing him back--that's "Angry Anakin". Dooku uses Dun Moch, taunting Anakin to "use his anger, something no Jedi would do" (to paraphrase), prompting Anakin to shy away from and repress his anger---that's "Jedi Anakin". Eventually he turns Super Saiyan and brings Dooku down in seconds---"Zone Anakin".
To an extent that interferes with what we see in the film, and I don't know where canon policy officially stands on stuff like that. Suffice to say, the greatest extrapolation we have of characters' fighting prowess comes from this source.
But thanks to the scene jumping of the film, and the writing in the novel, the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel isn't as victim to such inconsistencies. Twice before I've quoted whole passages from the book, so I refuse to do it again. To sum it up, "Vader-Anakin" was giving Obi-Wan hell (from Obi-Wan's perspective no less) and showed no signs of fatigue. He showed such power and skill in their fight that Obi-Wan had to scrape the bottom of his Barrel of Tricks just to stay alive. My wording, not his.
Zonakin is the clear-as-bell, uninhibited, "perfect" Anakin. Vader is the relentless powerhouse of emotion, but lacks the clarity of focus, which would have killed Kenobi not too long in to their duel. But lacking that, and given Kenobi's bonus of familiarity, he lived.
^ Yeah your right about Anakin giving Obi-Wan hell. I never denied that. IIRC the novel states at one point Obi-Wan was barley keeping up with Anakin using TK to throw stuff at him.
But I still think giving Obi-Wan hell is a long long way from tooling the guy who finishes off Obi-Wan with extreme ease.
I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.
Add this to the fights we've seen of Dooku vs Anakin in Clone Wars animation, I just find it difficult to see that fight in ROTS going any other way, with or without Obi-Wan. Best case scenario for Dooku I could see him fighting ROTS Anakin to a stalemate. But that might just be me.
Of course on the other hand you could argue that if Ventress in a bit of a rage can Force choke and levitate Anakin, then an all out Dooku (with Force attacks) should destroy him (hypothetically).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Yeah your right about Anakin giving Obi-Wan hell. I never denied that. IIRC the novel states at one point Obi-Wan was barley keeping up with Anakin using TK to throw stuff at him.But I still think giving Obi-Wan hell is a long long way from tooling the guy who finishes off Obi-Wan with extreme ease.
I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.
Add this to the fights we've seen of Dooku vs Anakin in Clone Wars animation, I just find it difficult to see that fight in ROTS going any other way, with or without Obi-Wan. Best case scenario for Dooku I could see him fighting ROTS Anakin to a stalemate. But that might just be me.
Of course on the other hand you could argue that if Ventress in a bit of a rage can Force choke and levitate Anakin, then an all out Dooku (with Force attacks) should destroy him (hypothetically).
The new Clone Wars utterly kills the powerscales.
For example, Grievous having trouble with Adi-Gallia when at Boz Pity he utterly destroys her.
Kit Fisto fighting on par with Grievous, but losing to Assaj. But Grievous annihilating both Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
Anakin should really be no match for Tyrannus who has been getting the shit treatment by this show. In fact, all of the villains sans Ventress have been made into a gimmick. Grievous went from outdueling 5 Jedi and sending an entire Arc platoon into retreat, to losing to Kit Fisto, his padawan and some clones in his own lair.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think we're going to have to go the route most comic book geeks do and just accept that mostly power-levels take a back seat to convenience. Grievous is only as threatening as the writer wants him to be.
*sigh* Yeah. Still I think Dooku vs. Anakin would have ended in a victory for Tyranus ala TK.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Zonakin is the clear-as-bell, uninhibited, "perfect" Anakin. Vader is the relentless powerhouse of emotion, but lacks the clarity of focus, which would have killed Kenobi not too long in to their duel. But lacking that, and given Kenobi's bonus of familiarity, he lived.
I like your explanation of the two different mental states of Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERHe didn't. It was never easy for Dooku to face Anakin. Not even in AotC. But apparently, Dooku knows where Obi-Wan's 'Z' spot is, and wrecks him like a Putty every time.
I also get ROTS Jedi Anakin going through different mental phases. But I still dnt remember any point where he was able to deal with Anakin with any kind of ease. The "Destroyer droid with a lightsaber" quote comes to mind, and this before Anakin went into a rage.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The new Clone Wars utterly kills the powerscales.
For example, Grievous having trouble with Adi-Gallia when at Boz Pity he utterly destroys her.
Kit Fisto fighting on par with Grievous, but losing to Assaj. But Grievous annihilating both Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
Anakin should really be no match for Tyrannus who has been getting the shit treatment by this show. In fact, all of the villains sans Ventress have been made into a gimmick. Grievous went from outdueling 5 Jedi and sending an entire Arc platoon into retreat, to losing to Kit Fisto, his padawan and some clones in his own lair.
Yeah but the new clone wars is higher in canonicity than the sources of the events you have noted above, so the clone wars power level should take precedent. In other words Kit Fisto >/= Grievous, and Ventress is most probably > Greivous/Fisto.
Lets be honest. Greivous outdueling 5 Jedi hasn't really made sense since ROTS when Kenobi tooled him one on one.
I actually think the show's overall been good to Count Dooku. Yes there was that embarrasing moment of getting captured by a handful of pirates(one of whom went toe to toe with Skywalker at one point in the show), but overall it's given him some great feats/showings, the majority being in the Savage Opress trilogy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]Yeah but the new clone wars is higher in canonicity than the sources of the events you have noted above, so the clone wars power level should take precedent. In other words Kit Fisto >/= Grievous, and Ventress is most probably > Greivous/Fisto.
Lets be honest. Greivous outdueling 5 Jedi hasn't really made sense since ROTS when Kenobi tooled him one on one.
I actually think the show's overall been good to Count Dooku. Yes there was that embarrasing moment of getting captured by a handful of pirates(one of whom went toe to toe with Skywalker at one point in the show), but overall it's given him some great feats/showings, the majority being in the Savage Opress trilogy.
That's true the Opress trilogy was good to him. But I just wish the directors would stop giving him bad duels with Skywalker. Like during the battle of Naboo why did he have to use Magna Guards to dispatch him.
*sigh* and let's not even talk about how Grievous was detained by Gungans. 😠
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
See I'd agree with this except the Clone Wars makes it pretty clear that Grievous>/= Ventress from their interactions. For example during the Invasion of Kamino Ventress calls Grievous, and I quote, 'My Lord'. And when they have an argument Grievous pretty clearly states that the good Count placed him in command for a reason.
Im not sure about this. He was in military command, yes, but we know his biggest asset is that he is a military genius so that kind of makes sense.
But I think Ventress made it pretty clear on Kamino that she's not afraid of him. She also made it clear she sees herself as GG's superior in combat by saying "Dooku may have taught you to swing a lightsaber but dnt think that makes you my equal", that was after GG himself admitting that Ventress is probably his equal IIRC.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It sort of does because Kenobi was stated to be the perfect counter for him. Even members of the High Council like Yoda and Windu give Grievous credit.
Maybe. Still seemed a huge downfall from outduelling 5 Jedi. And this was just the start of Grievous's downgrade.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
*sigh* and let's not even talk about how Grievous was detained by Gungans. 😠
Lol Not his best moment!
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Or how Dooku was detained by pirates.
Definetely Not His Best Moment!! And not even anything to "Lol" about!!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I also dnt remember Dooku kicking Anakin in the face. I only remember the one kick by Dooku.
Yeah, of course you don't. As i said, it was in the same moment, when we see Palpatine's face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtg16YpXU9U&feature=related
3:02
ROTS Anakin in both forms was vicious and forced Obi Wan back, only an error of judgement made him lose. Obi-Wan was otherwise finished. Maul is very very good, but Obi-Wan beat him in the end, whereas Anakin was closer to beating Obi-Wan than Maul was. Anakin would take Maul in the end, but it would be one of the most exhilerating battles in the whole of the franchise, IMO.