ROTS Anakin vs Maul

According to Path of Destruction Force power does vastly affect lightsaber prowess. And I can't quite agree with you that Dooku isn't more powerful than Kenobi.

WTF? Dooku is described as a one of the best duelist in order history, on par with Mace and Yoda.

And Obi doesn't defeat Anakin because of his skill. They both knows everything about each other, but with Anakin's mental condition it gives profits only for Kenobi.

And soresu is a better form to fight Djem So user, then Makashi.

And at the end Obi was able to win, only because of high ground.

He had to take him out quick because he was having enough trouble against Anakin. So that doesn't prove anything about Dooku and Obi-Wan's Saber skills.

What we do know is Dooku has the power and skill to sword fight Yoda. I doubt Obi-Wan does.

Originally posted by Arhael
You don't have to agree, it's just an opinion.

Originally posted by Arhael

And Obi is described in very same way "his skill with a lightsaber rivaling even Yoda and Mace Windu."

Where are you quoting from? His skill in his particular form may very well be close Yoda's or Mace's skill in their own chosen form. However those 2 have also mastered various other forms, whilst Obi-Wan has only achieved mastership in the one form.

Furthermore his level of skill will not matter if he simply does not have the Power to rival Mace or Yoda. Just like Cin Drallig and Dooku's superior fencing skills were useless against Anakin.

Originally posted by Arhael

Not because of skill??? He was able to survive the whole fight because of skill. They do know everything about each other but it doesn't change the fact that any fight is very random and unpredictable. If you ever fought in real life, you will understand.
Anakin's mental condition gave Kenobi profit only right at the end.

He had skill to rival Anakin. But theres no doubt that this was a very different fight than usual considering how well both these 2 knew each others moves.

Also I doubt Anakin by this point in the movie would have been in Yoda, Mace or even Dooku's league.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi certainly didn't have that power and skill in AotC. In RotS Obi's style is not the best for winning but he can give long sword fight to anyone.

Thing is we need more evidence than just a quote from Mace saying He's The Master of Soresu. We need Saber feats to put him in league with Yoda, Mace and Dooku. But he just doesn't have them.

And I know CW Obi-Wan is not quite as good as ROTS Obi-Wan, but he gets disarmed by Ventress pretty quick. So he's not really impressed me all that much Saber wise.

Theres certainly nothing to put him in the Yoda, Mace league.

[B]In versus matches we avoid opinions. Subjective feelings have no place.

His skill in his particular form may very well be close Yoda's or Mace's skill in their own chosen form. However those 2 have also mastered various other forms, whilst Obi-Wan has only achieved mastership in the one form.

Furthermore his level of skill will not matter if he simply does not have the Power to rival Mace or Yoda. Just like Cin Drallig and Dooku's superior fencing skills were useless against Anakin.

He had skill to rival Anakin. But theres no doubt that this was a very different fight than usual considering how well both these 2 knew each others moves.

Also I doubt Anakin by this point in the movie would have been in Yoda, Mace or even Dooku's league.

And I know CW Obi-Wan is not quite as good as ROTS Obi-Wan, but he gets disarmed by Ventress pretty quick. So he's not really impressed me all that much Saber wise.

Originally posted by Arhael

Here I can't agree. Power is not always deciding factor. No matter what potential Anakin had, Kenobi was able to counter him with equally strong Force push. Palpatine was so powerful that he was orchestrating multiple platforms, while laughing, when Yoda had to heavily concentrate to throw single one, yet, Palpatine couldn't beat him.

Well it depends how much the difference in power is. Clearly Anakin was just too powerful for Dooku. And Cin Drallig for that matter. And theres nothing anywhere to suggest Obi-Wan has fencing skills which surpass or even equal Count Dooku's.

Originally posted by Arhael
The fact that they knew each other's moves is not good enough. At such speed you can't predict or anticipate any particular move. The whole fight is based on trusting the Force and their styles and moves are build into their reflexes by years of practice. Fight is extremely unpredictable, if you try to predict or anticipate any specific move, you simply loose.

Read how the ROTS novel describes the fight:

"Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior."

Plus Nick Gillard describes the fight in the Making of ROTS as neither of them able to get past each others defences because they know each other's moves too well.

The simple fact is a Master will always have certain advantages over the apprentice he trained. He will be fully aware of his strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by Arhael
You doubt but I don't. Over 10 years you can teach a monkey to talk. Anakin hadn't achieved full potential in Force knowledge and understanding but he was at his top in combat.

He was at his peak as a Jedi when he fought Count Dooku. Not the day/week he just became a Sith and had his mind all warped and twisted. In his fight against Count Dooku the ROTS novel describes Anakin as achieving Pristine Clarity in his head.

Do you really think he was clear and commited to what he was doing as Sith Anakin. The one crying and screaming as he murdered the seperatist leaders, and the one who says to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you.." And the one who force choked his own wife even though he was trying to save her life?? Of course not.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyone can get disarmed. Ventress could be lucky or she managed to execute a nice technique, or there could be countless other possibilities.

Poor excuse, especially considering she's disarmed him twice now in the CWanimation out of a total of 3 fights he's had against her. Two of them with Anakin by his side!

But has Anakin ever got disarmed by Ventress? Nope. (Not since he's been a Jedi Kinght anyway, I know she did in their first fight against Padawan Anakin in the CWmini cartoon).

Originally posted by Arhael
Windu disarmed Palpatin. Does it prove he is better combatant and would beat him in any scenario? No it doesn't.

Well in a purely saber and physical close comabt? Yeah I think Mace proved he's better than Sidious. (After a long tough fight of course)..

In conclusion theres really no evidence that puts Obi-Wan in the prequel top tiers in Saber combat. Theres actually no evidence suggesting he's even a better/more powerful fencer than Ventress. Maybe even Kit Fisto for that matter.

"Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior."

Plus Nick Gillard describes the fight in the Making of ROTS as neither of them able to get past each others defences because they know each other's moves too well.

The simple fact is a Master will always have certain advantages over the apprentice he trained. He will be fully aware of his strengths and weaknesses.

Ok, assume they know moves, know how to counter each other and Kenoby as Master has slight advantage but you yourself put a lot of weight on power as you said:

Well it depends how much the difference in power is. Clearly Anakin was just too powerful for Dooku.

He was at his peak as a Jedi when he fought Count Dooku. Not the day/week he just became a Sith and had his mind all warped and twisted. In his fight against Count Dooku the ROTS novel describes Anakin as achieving Pristine Clarity in his head.

Do you really think he was clear and commited to what he was doing as Sith Anakin. The one crying and screaming as he murdered the seperatist leaders, and the one who says to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you.." And the one who force choked his own wife even though he was trying to save her life?? Of course not.

Poor excuse, especially considering she's disarmed him twice now in the CWanimation out of a total of 3 fights he's had against her. Two of them with Anakin by his side!

In conclusion theres really no evidence that puts Obi-Wan in the prequel top tiers in Saber combat. Theres actually no evidence suggesting he's even a better/more powerful fencer than Ventress. Maybe even Kit Fisto for that matter.

There is. Fought Grievous defending against 4 lightsabers simultaneously, each striking with cyborg strength. Fought with Anakin on equal terms and disarmed him more that once during fight. Now you gave me extra example with Ventres. You have reasons to discard these facts but I have reason to have them as valid, this argument can't really end xD.

Originally posted by Arhael
I didn't read prequel novels yet. But I find it kind of lame explanation. My logic comes from real life perspective as I do Tomiki Aikido + learned lots of stuff myself.

Yeah don't bother applying real life to Star Wars. I remember years ago when discussing Darth Maul kicking Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, a poster here told me he's done sword fighting, and a kick is not intended to do any damage, but only distance yourself from the combatant.

I explained to him how Star Wars fight are not like that. Theres plenty of examples of kicking with the intent of doing damage while sword fighting.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, assume they know moves, know how to counter each other and Kenoby as Master has slight advantage but you yourself put a lot of weight on power as you said:

And as you said Obi-Wan is even less powerful, than Dooku.

I know. Thats what Im saying. Anakin was not applying his power any where near as efficiently at the point he was fighting Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Arhael
In film during fight with Dooku listening to his arrogant comments and looking at his aggressive expression and brutal attacks I would describe his state anything but "Pristine Clarity".

He was clear about his goal: Defeating Count Dooku. Saving the 2 men who were like fathers to him all his life. Applying his rage effectively but being goal orientated about it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anger makes you stronger, doesn't it? I am sure there is enough evidence of that. Apart from that reckless jump at the end he did very well.

He was always using anger anyway. Skywalker's just a really angry guy lol. But he used to hold back on it more.

But the big difference in his fight with Kenobi was his mind was all warped and twisted. What was his goal? Was it to Force Choke Padme endangering her life? No. But he did that.

Was it to kill the seperatists. Maybe. But then why was he crying while doing that.

Was his goal to kill Obi-Wan?? If it was then why did he say "Dnt make me destroy you?"

You see what Im saying here. His mind clearly didn't have that Pristine Clarity. He didn't know what he wanted to do really.

Just the fact that he made that stupid jump just shows how warped his mind was at that point in the movie.

Originally posted by Arhael
Out of curiosity watched again 1x1 fight against Ventress. He didn't try to win he and was merely playing with her. After she disarmed him he simply continued flirting with her, while she was failing to strike him down, then without problem summoned the sword and continued fighting SINGLEHANDEDLY in relax mode. At the end she totally failed to do anything to him, lost one of her lightsabers and ran away. Imho he clearly showed that he is above her.

Ventress got more powerful during the clone wars. We know this from Sidious's words in the episode "Nightsisters". He basically says to Dooku shes growing too strong in the force so he has to kill her.

But even in that first fight you mentioned, she did disarm him! She disarmed him, then you're right he dodged her for a few seconds, then she had him trapped. And she clearly had an oppurtunity to kill him! But instead she gloated for a couple of seconds, giving him an oppurtunity to escape that. So the only reason she didn't kill him was Pure PIS and CIS!!

Then Obiwan runs to another location. She follows. And yes he does disarm one of her weapons. But she only runs when she senses Anakin has got away, and Obi-Wan even tells her that.

The second time she disarmed him is in the episode "nightsisters" where she is fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, and kicks Obi-Wan onto the floor with his weapon falling out of his hand.

Clearly if Anakin wasn't there, Obi-wan would have been in serious trouble there.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is. Fought Grievous defending against 4 lightsabers simultaneously, each striking with cyborg strength.

So has Kit Fisto and Ventress. Both did defeat or were defeating him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fought with Anakin on equal terms and disarmed him more that once during fight.

Thats what we've been discussing 😛

Yeah don't bother applying real life to Star Wars. I remember years ago when discussing Darth Maul kicking Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, a poster here told me he's done sword fighting, and a kick is not intended to do any damage, but only distance yourself from the combatant.

You see what Im saying here. His mind clearly didn't have that Pristine Clarity. He didn't know what he wanted to do really.

Ventress got more powerful during the clone wars. We know this from Sidious's words in the episode "Nightsisters". He basically says to Dooku shes growing too strong in the force so he has to kill her. But even in that first fight you mentioned, she did disarm him! She disarmed him, then you're right he dodged her for a few seconds, then she had him trapped. And she clearly had an oppurtunity to kill him! But instead she gloated for a couple of seconds, giving him an oppurtunity to escape that. So the only reason she didn't kill him was Pure PIS and CIS!!

Yes, she did and maybe she could kill him, there are always plenty of ifs. But agree, he was too casual and didn't try to win her.
I think Obi started showing "Yoda style" self-confidence too early. He didn't treat Ventress as serious foe in that duel. And then as you said she became much more powerful and in nightsisters episode he totally underestimated her. Especially, when she Force choked both of them, honestly, they really sucked at defending against Force. Maybe it's Anakin's fault as well, Obi relies on him, but Any allows Ventress to kick him. %).

By reviewing videos I noticed that Obi-Wan was quite arrogant himself. In every fight I hear his "I don't think so nono" and before fight with Dooku his "The Sith lord are our specialty" tore me apart. Also, all those previous encounters were more like another regular missions. But fight with Anakin was on a new level in terms off high stakes and circumstances surrounding it. Obi-Wan didn't loose because he couldn't afford to loose and as the result he fought beyond his normal abilities. Maybe only after that duel Obi-Wan became truly powerful Jedi but it's all speculation.

Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that during fights knowledge of each others moves and difference in power doesn't play major roles.

My point is don't confuse Star Wars fights with real fight. If the Novel and Nick Gillard both say they knew each others moves inside out, then we should accept that was a big factor in their fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, true. But to me reason was obvious, cut Obi to pieces!

Was it? Then why did he say before the fight "Don't make me destroy you!" It's not typical for Sith Lords to say that to their prey.

Originally posted by Arhael
Especially, when she Force choked both of them, honestly, they really sucked at defending against Force. Maybe it's Anakin's fault as well, Obi relies on him, but Any allows Ventress to kick him. %).

You see Anakin's a wild card. We've seen Ventress force choke him, but then we've seen him take full on Force attacks from Count Dooku, and still be fine to carry on fighting.

But I can't say the same about Obi-Wan. We've seen both Dooku and Ventress Force choke him now.. The only thing I can think from that is that his Force defences are not very good when up against deadly force users.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, all those previous encounters were more like another regular missions. But fight with Anakin was on a new level in terms off high stakes and circumstances surrounding it. Obi-Wan didn't loose because he couldn't afford to loose and as the result he fought beyond his normal abilities. Maybe only after that duel Obi-Wan became truly powerful Jedi but it's all speculation.

Hey I do like Obi-Wan. He's the the most Charismatic Jedi we see in the movies. But to be honest these are just excuses for him. If there's one thing the CW Animation has shown us its that he's not in the elite tier of Jedi. I used to think in a Sword fight he could match the PT top dogs. But I just dnt believe that anymore.

From what Iv seen Mace could just kick him to the floor, Dooku would probably disarm him of his weapon in a very elegant fencing manouver, and Yoda and Sidious would just be too fast and powerful for him.

As of the Clone Wars its quite clear the top 3 Jedi are:

1. Yoda, 2. Mace, and 3. Skywalker.

But No. 4 is a big question mark even as of ROTS I think. I dnt see any proof that it's clearly Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The only thing I can think from that is that his Force defences are not very good when up against deadly force users.

As of the Clone Wars its quite clear the top 3 Jedi are:

1. Yoda, 2. Mace, and 3. Skywalker.

But No. 4 is a big question mark even as of ROTS I think. I dnt see any proof that it's clearly Obi-Wan Kenobi.

^My list was just Jedi. It was always clear through the whole PT that Yoda and Mace were the top 2 Jedi (in terms of power).

And I think CW animation has made it pretty clear that, since he became a Jedi Knight, Anakin was soundly No.3, after all his fights with Count Dooku nearly stalemating him each time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^My list was just Jedi. It was always clear through the whole PT that Yoda and Mace were the top 2 Jedi (in terms of power).

And I think CW animation has made it pretty clear that, since he became a Jedi Knight, Anakin was soundly No.3, after all his fights with Count Dooku nearly stalemating him each time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Emm, don't remember Windu to fight any Sith in CW.

What difference does that make?

Originally posted by Arhael
Apart from fight with Palpatine, which rises a lot of questions there is not much evidence.

Not another "Sidious faked defeat"

He legitimately overpowered him in the Lightsaber fight at least.

The Novel confirms this, and so does Lucas in the ROTS audio commentary of that scene.

Originally posted by Arhael

Actually, by RotS Obi's combat skills were on level with Dooku or even above, Dooku won him only because of Force choke.

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Kenobi hasn't been equated to Kit Fisto since just after AotC, about 2 and a half years prior to RotS. That's not a valid comparison anymore.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kenobi hasn't been equated to Kit Fisto since just after AotC, about 2 and a half years prior to RotS. That's not a valid comparison anymore.

Kit Fisto's displays of swordsmanship are on a similar tier to Kenobi. And AOTC Kenobi could barely follow Kit's movements with his eyes. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan wouldn't beat him but they are on the same level.

On the other hand Kit Fisto effortlessly handled Grievous pre-force crush to the lungs years before RotS, while Kenobi had to go into "heart of the force" mode to stand up against retarded RotS Grievous.

Which just says more about how retarded the clone wars cartoon is, than anything else.

But if its absolutely canon, Fisto is arguably superior to Kenobi by showings.

^ I wouldn't go as far as saying superior, but since the CW animation has given us more perspective on the ability of other Jedi, we do need more concrete proof that Kenobi is beyond the likes of Fisto. ( Or Ventress for that matter).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Dooku is on a different level than Kenobi who is like Kit Fisto level. Dooku has Sidious level swordsmanship and we saw how the Master Smiles lasted against that.

Only problem with this line of thought is we've already seen AOTC Kenobi last a couple of minutes against Dooku in a sword fight.

Only problem with this line of thought is we've already seen AOTC Kenobi last a couple of minutes against Dooku in a sword fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
The thing is that skill and power doesn't grow like levels in rpg. Post FM Kenobi could not practice often enough and even get weaker but then realizing his unfitness become much stronger within a year.

Whats FM Kenobi? And when did he get weaker and in which year did he become stronger again??

But back to my point about why AOTC Kenobi lasts much much longer against Count Dooku than Fisto does against Sidious... Well I guess that's where the typical A>B>C fails. Sidious went for the faster and more ferocious attack, whilst Dooku was fighting very relaxed and calmly and even toying with Kenobi..

There. Im officially debating with myself on these boards now. Maybe I need to get out more 😮