Faith Alone.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You don't believe in human sacrifice? Well do you believe in human death?

Death is a fact of life whether you believe in it or not.

Why do you believe that Hell is a state of mind?

I believe that [B]Hell is a literal place based on the Biblical record. [/B]

I do not believe in sacrificing a person's life for the sins of others. I also would not be in favor of a father allowing his son to die on the cross for sins of other people. To me, this father would be evil, especially if he had the power to wipe away the sins of other people without the death of his son.

Are you telling me that God has limits?

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not believe in sacrificing a person's life for the sins of others. I also would not be in favor of a father allowing his son to die on the cross for sins of other people. To me, this father would be evil, especially if he had the power to wipe away the sins of other people without the death of his son.

Are you telling me that God has limits?

By virtue of God's holiness and His good, just, and righteous character it would be unthinkable that He would just wipe away sin. God cannot wipe away sin and be just.

Sin must be punished.

Sin cannot simply be swept under the rug.

No good judge and prosecuting attorney would allow a heinous crime to go unpunished no matter how much power they have to expunge it or wipe it away.

Sin is a heinous crime against God's established standard of what is righteous and good. He sets the bar or mark because He is the Creator. The standard is Himself. Anyone who is not able to measure up to Him in terms of holiness and righteousness is a sinner.

Sin is missing the mark. Fallen humanity has missed the mark.

I apologize for this crude illustration but suppose the United States Justice System worked that way. What if someone who you know very well, such as a family member or spouse were beaten, raped, tortured and then murdered in front of your very eyes. Would you want that individual to just go scot-free so that he can commit the same crime to other innocent people, or would you want that vile person off of the streets where he cannot do another person harm?

For the good of others heartless criminals should not be allowed to live amongst society because they are too dangerous. However, God's standard of righteousness is higher than humanity's standard. In God's eyes one sin--no matter how seemingly trivial--subjects the sinner to death because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)

God's standard is so high that no one can keep it except God Himself. God is so holy that His standard is not attainable apart from His Spirit living on the inside of us, and without the shed Blood of His Son Jesus Christ on deposit in Heaven as a constant reminder of our inability, and of His sacrifice on our behalf.

Can you see why humanity needs a Savior?

Can you see why the world needs Jesus?

No true parent can just permit their child to murder someone in cold blood, and then just wipe it away by looking the other way and not reporting the child. That would not make you a good, just, or righteous person let alone parent.

JIA

Your god is limited.

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
JIA

Your god is limited.

You do know that Babylonians sacrificed their children?

I wrote all of that and that's all that you can say?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I wrote all of that and that's all that you can say?

I didn't want excuses for your limited god. 😉

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I didn't want excuses for your limited god. 😉

You made no effort to engage me in intelligent conversation.

🙁

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You made no effort to engage me in intelligent conversation.

🙁

Did too... 😛

Don't you see how human sacrifice is wrong and evil?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Did too... 😛

Don't you see how human sacrifice is wrong and evil?

I put a lot of effort into my response and it seemed that you just blew it off.

🙁 😕

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I put a lot of effort into my response and it seemed that you just blew it off.

🙁 😕

Ok we will take it one step at a time:

"By virtue of God's holiness and His good, just, and righteous character it would be unthinkable that He would just wipe away sin. God cannot wipe away sin and be just."

In other words: god cannot do that.

"Sin must be punished."

No, that is wrong. Sometimes we must look beyond ourselves and forgive others without compensation.

"Sin cannot simply be swept under the rug."

Unconditional forgiveness is not "swept under the rug". If it is then it is not unconditional.

"No good judge and prosecuting attorney would allow a heinous crime to go unpunished no matter how much power they have to expunge it or wipe it away."

Unconditional forgiveness is something your god cannot do.

"Sin is a heinous crime against God's established standard of what is righteous and good. He sets the bar or mark because He is the Creator. The standard is Himself. Anyone who is not able to measure up to Him in terms of holiness and righteousness is a sinner. "

To me, this is the thinking of a child. An adult would realize that correction must have a positive goal.

"Sin is missing the mark. Fallen humanity has missed the mark."

That is way unconditional forgiveness is required.

"I apologize for this crude illustration but suppose the United States Justice System worked that way. What if someone who you know very well, such as a family member or spouse were beaten, raped, tortured and then murdered in front of your very eyes. Would you want that individual to just go scot-free so that he can commit the same crime to other innocent people, or would you want that vile person off of the streets where he cannot do another person harm?"

I would not be for that persons death. They should be stopped from doing more harm, but I do not believe that the punishment of that person will undo the damage they did. I would hope they grow and become a better person before they die. That way when they are reincarnated they will not repeat the crime in a new life.

"For the good of others heartless criminals should not be allowed to live amongst society because they are too dangerous. However, God's standard of righteousness is higher than humanity's standard. In God's eyes one sin--no matter how seemingly trivial--subjects the sinner to death because the wages of sin is death"

That is very limited point of view.

"God's standard is so high that no one can keep it except God Himself. God is so holy that His standard is not attainable apart from His Spirit living on the inside of us, and without the shed Blood of His Son Jesus Christ on deposit in Heaven as a constant reminder of our inability, and of His sacrifice on our behalf."

Again, the lack of vision to understand the human condition is just wrong.

"Can you see why humanity needs a Savior?"

No.

"Can you see why the world needs Jesus?"

Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

"No true parent can just permit their child to murder someone in cold blood, and then just wipe it away by looking the other way and not reporting the child. That would not make you a good, just, or righteous person let alone parent."

I have already answered this one above. To put it simply: the state of mind of the criminal will be taken with them, unchanged, into their next life.

Now do you see why I didn't want to answer? I really care about you my friend, and I don't want my beliefs to hurt you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

"Can you see why the world needs Jesus?"

Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

Interesting thought. I was just reading about this yesterday. I kind of like this idea, too.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ok we will take it one step at a time...Now do you see why I didn't want to answer? I really care about you my friend, and I don't want my beliefs to hurt you.

I had to shorten your above quote between the ellipsis so that my reply would not exceed the message length.

Now...

"By virtue of God's holiness and His good, just, and righteous character it would be unthinkable that He would just wipe away sin. God cannot wipe away sin and be just."

In other words: god cannot do that.

No, not and still be just.

Question: can a judge wipe away first-degree murder and be just?

"Sin must be punished."

No, that is wrong. Sometimes we must look beyond ourselves and forgive others without compensation.

Why do you believe that this is wrong?

Should a just judge look beyond himself and forgive first-degree murder committed against others without legal retribution or justice for the victim’s family’s or for the state where the crime occurred?

"Sin cannot simply be swept under the rug."

Unconditional forgiveness is not "swept under the rug". If it is then it is not unconditional.

What is unconditional forgiveness? Should first-degree murders be given unconditional forgiveness and released from jail so that they can continue to murder people?

"No good judge and prosecuting attorney would allow a heinous crime to go unpunished no matter how much power they have to expunge it or wipe it away."

Unconditional forgiveness is something your god cannot do.

See above response because I’m not clear on what you mean by unconditional forgiveness.

"Sin is a heinous crime against God's established standard of what is righteous and good. He sets the bar or mark because He is the Creator. The standard is Himself. Anyone who is not able to measure up to Him in terms of holiness and righteousness is a sinner. "

To me, this is the thinking of a child. An adult would realize that correction must have a positive goal.

But your not dealing with a human. We are talking about God—the Creator—Whose ways are higher than humanity’s ways
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God’s ways higher than our ways, and His thoughts than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9).

God chastens His children.

“For whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.” (Hebrews 12:6)

But sin is lot more serious than you understand. God is holy. He is of purer eyes than to behold sin. Sin caused Adam and Eve to die spiritually because sin separated them God.

Sin separates us from God.

"Sin is missing the mark. Fallen humanity has missed the mark."

That is way unconditional forgiveness is required.

Unconditional forgiveness as I understand it cannot bring us back to God because sin separates us from God. As long as God is holy sin will keep us from His Presence. Again, I apologize for this crude illustration but could you abide your wife sleeping around on you with your knowledge? Could you abide your children doing drugs in your home in front of you? Could you abide a murderer in your home who has just come home from killing a young, innocent child? Could you abide incest taking place in your bed with your knowledge? Again, I apologize for these examples, but I want to really underscore the egregiousness of sin. The way you feel about these sins is how God feels about the least or most insignificant sin in our eyes because of how holy He is.

"I apologize for this crude illustration but suppose the United States Justice System worked that way. What if someone who you know very well, such as a family member or spouse were beaten, raped, tortured and then murdered in front of your very eyes. Would you want that individual to just go scot-free so that he can commit the same crime to other innocent people, or would you want that vile person off of the streets where he cannot do another person harm?"

I would not be for that persons death. They should be stopped from doing more harm, but I do not believe that the punishment of that person will undo the damage they did. I would hope they grow and become a better person before they die. That way when they are reincarnated they will not repeat the crime in a new life.

Why should they be stopped from doing harm? Shouldn’t we just extend to them unconditional forgiveness as you put it? What if they don’t believe in reincarnation?

"For the good of others heartless criminals should not be allowed to live amongst society because they are too dangerous. However, God's standard of righteousness is higher than humanity's standard. In God's eyes one sin--no matter how seemingly trivial--subjects the sinner to death because the wages of sin is death"

That is very limited point of view.

It is a matter sowing and reaping. God is Life. Sin separates humanity from the life of God. The effect of the absence of life is death.

"God's standard is so high that no one can keep it except God Himself. God is so holy that His standard is not attainable apart from His Spirit living on the inside of us, and without the shed Blood of His Son Jesus Christ on deposit in Heaven as a constant reminder of our inability, and of His sacrifice on our behalf."

Again, the lack of vision to understand the human condition is just wrong.

If Anyone understands the human condition it is the Manufacturer, excuse me, the Creator of the human entity. God not only understands the human condition theoretically, but He also understands it in a pragmatic, literal sense, having become flesh and walked this earth as a human being for thirty-three years. In addition, He was subject to all of the temptations that humanity is subject to seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day, for thirty-three years in His thoughts and body—yet never sinned.

"Can you see why humanity needs a Savior?"

No.

Why not? We cannot save ourselves.

"Can you see why the world needs Jesus?"

Yes, we need every Bodhisattva we can get.

The Lord Jesus Christ was not a Bodhisattva. Jesus Christ is the sinless, eternal, pre-existent, Word made flesh i.e. God incarnate, for in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (or in human form).

"No true parent can just permit their child to murder someone in cold blood, and then just wipe it away by looking the other way and not reporting the child. That would not make you a good, just, or righteous person let alone parent."

I have already answered this one above. To put it simply: the state of mind of the criminal will be taken with them, unchanged, into their next life.

How do you know that there is a next life?

Now do you see why I didn't want to answer? I really care about you my friend, and I don't want my beliefs to hurt you.

It is okay, your beliefs are just that: your beliefs. I’m sure we all have those. But I appreciate the fact that you did answer.

“Question: can a judge wipe away first-degree murder and be just?”

Life is far more complicated. Therefore, to be just requires complexity.

“Why do you believe that this is wrong?”

Sometimes things we think are right and just, are actually evil, or follow an evil path. You have heard the excretion; the road to hell in paved with good intentions.

“Should a just judge look beyond himself and forgive first-degree murder committed against others without legal retribution or justice for the victim’s family’s or for the state where the crime occurred?”

Does this judgment undo the damage done? Then what is just about any of it?

“What is unconditional forgiveness? Should first-degree murders be given unconditional forgiveness and released from jail so that they can continue to murder people?”

Humans do wrong. I am not as concerned about the murderer, as I am the innocent person who is condemned by your religion.

“See above response because I’m not clear on what you mean by unconditional forgiveness.”

Really? Do you understand unconditional love?

“But your not dealing with a human. We are talking about God—the Creator—Whose ways are higher than humanity’s ways”

Even more reason for correction (punishment) to have a positive goal. A god that would punish without consideration of a positive outcome doesn’t care about the people he is judging.

“But sin is lot more serious than you understand. God is holy. He is of purer eyes than to behold sin. Sin caused Adam and Eve to die spiritually because sin separated them God.”

God should take a anger management class.

“Sin separates us from God.”

To me, being separated from God is impossible.

“Unconditional forgiveness as I understand it cannot bring us back to God because sin separates us from God. As long as God is holy sin will keep us from His Presence. Again, I apologize for this crude illustration but could you abide your wife sleeping around on you with your knowledge? Could you abide your children doing drugs in your home in front of you? Could you abide a murderer in your home who has just come home from killing a young, innocent child? Could you abide incest taking place in your bed with your knowledge? Again, I apologize for these examples, but I want to really underscore the egregiousness of sin. The way you feel about these sins is how God feels about the least or most insignificant sin in our eyes because of how holy He is.”

Let’s talk about the person who lived the best life they could. They didn’t do the things you said above. However, they never joined your church. They rejected your belief for whatever reason they had at the time. Why should this person go to hell?

“Why should they be stopped from doing harm? Shouldn’t we just extend to them unconditional forgiveness as you put it? What if they don’t believe in reincarnation?”

Stopping them is not judging them. Stopping them is the outcome of the actions they took. Unconditional forgiveness does not change their karma.

Their belief does not modify my belief.

“It is a matter sowing and reaping. God is Life. Sin separates humanity from the life of God. The effect of the absence of life is death.”

I don’t believe you can be separated from God. Sowing what you reap is another way of saying Karma.

“Why not? We cannot save ourselves.”

There is no original sin.

“The Lord Jesus Christ was not a Bodhisattva. Jesus Christ is the sinless, eternal, pre-existent, Word made flesh i.e. God incarnate, for in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (or in human form).

In my religion, Jesus is a Bodhisattva.

“How do you know that there is a next life?”

It is not that simple. Reincarnation is a human way to understand a deeper reality. We are not ready to talk about this.

“It is okay, your beliefs are just that: your beliefs. I’m sure we all have those. But I appreciate the fact that you did answer.”

Ok!

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

My thoughts and experiences will not profit you when you are on your deathbed faced with the most important decision of your life. I can only tell you that my experience of giving my heart and life to Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins is the best and most important decision I have ever made in my life because of the eternal ramifications.

My thoughts to you are that you should do the same before your soul is required of you. (Luke 12:16-20)[/COLOR] [/B]

Let me share with you the point in my life when I lost my faith...

My aunt grew up believing in God. As a child she went to church every Sunday with her parents & every night she prayed her thanks & gratitude. She truly believed there was a God.
In her late twenties, she married & gave birth to a sweet little girl.

At the age of 33, when her little daughter was only 5, my aunt was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My aunt still prayed to God. She prayed for her little girl to have strength & never feel alone in life with God at her side.

On her death bed, her husband of 7 yrs came to the hospital & announced that he's had a gambling problem & lost what life savings they had. He also further announced that he would not be able to look after their daughter.

My aunt who had faith in God & devoted her life to him, died with the knowledge that she was leaving behind a homeless 5 yr old.

Now justify to me, where was God there?
What "Divine Plan" did he have that warranted leaving a 5yr old child homeless?
Why bring her into this world in the first place only to take both her parents away?
Why did God mock my aunt's faith the way he did?

Esau Cairn, sorry to hear your sad story.

I am not a Christian, but I would like to try and answer the questions above.

I don't believe in the Christian god, but sometimes belief has a benefit that is tangible, and real. Your aunts belief my have been the only thing helping her in the end. It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

As far as your cousin, she has family, hopefully, someone will take care of her, and she will have a good life.

Forgive my intrusion, but I will be surprised if JIA answers you.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Let me share with you the point in my life when I lost my faith...

My aunt grew up believing in God. As a child she went to church every Sunday with her parents & every night she prayed her thanks & gratitude. She truly believed there was a God.
In her late twenties, she married & gave birth to a sweet little girl.

At the age of 33, when her little daughter was only 5, my aunt was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My aunt still prayed to God. She prayed for her little girl to have strength & never feel alone in life with God at her side.

On her death bed, her husband of 7 yrs came to the hospital & announced that he's had a gambling problem & lost what life savings they had. He also further announced that he would not be able to look after their daughter.

My aunt who had faith in God & devoted her life to him, died with the knowledge that she was leaving behind a homeless 5 yr old.

Now justify to me, where was God there?
What "Divine Plan" did he have that warranted leaving a 5yr old child homeless?
Why bring her into this world in the first place only to take both her parents away?
Why did God mock my aunt's faith the way he did?

My mother is diagnosed with terminal cancer, but I do not blame God for it. In fact, it hasn't even crossed my mind. I have taught my mother to meditate and to make sure that the biggest part of her body is the mind and she'll have the ability to, if not heal herself, extend her life.

Happiness does not exist without suffering.

I believe in God, but I have not once blamed him for any shitty thing that happened to me, nor have I stopped believing in God. God is my spiritual guide - bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.

Even worse thing is that my bad actions sometimes lead others into pain and suffering, which is even bigger shit, not brought on my God, but by myself to others.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.

So when your mother got cancer was it your fault or her fault?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So when your mother got cancer was it your fault or her fault?

I clearly said bad things that happen to ME. Cancer is a bad thing that happened to my mother that affected me.

It was nobody's fault - If we knew what caused it exactly, we might be able to discuss and determine it.
Clearly, since we can't point to anyone, it must be God's fault.

P.S Just one more thing - keep trolling and baiting me from threat to thread and I will ban you.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I clearly said bad things that happen to ME. Cancer is a bad thing that happened to my mother that affected me.

Seems like this leave three possiblities:
Eitheryou don't believe that principle applies to people other than yourself.
Or you don't believe that the principle applies to things like getting cancer.
Or you believe your mother gave herself cancer.

I assume its the second but you sound more like your arguing for the first one (which honestly makes the least sense to me).

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It was nobody's fault - If we knew what caused it exactly, we might be able to discuss and determine it.
Clearly, since we can't point to anyone, it must be God's fault.

God claims absolute authority over the universe and everyone within it. That comes with responsibility.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
P.S Just one more thing - keep trolling and baiting me from threat to thread and I will ban you.

When did I follow you around "trolling and baiting" you? This is the first time we've spoken in weeks.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Seems like this leave three possiblities:
Eitheryou don't believe that principle applies to people other than yourself.
Or you don't believe that the principle applies to things like getting cancer.
Or you believe your mother gave herself cancer.

I assume its the second but you sound more like your arguing for the first one (which honestly makes the least sense to me).

God claims absolute authority over the universe and everyone within it. That comes with responsibility.

When did I follow you around "trolling and baiting" you? This is the first time we've spoken in weeks.

You can't really say what my God has authority over and what he doesn't. Different ideas of God.

Since cancer isn't an 'outside' disease, it's created in my mother's body, by her own cells, so her cells have her cancer. And I'd like to move away from this conversation. You may use other examples, than my mother.

I tolerated your random trolling and baiting before - this is kind of a straw that broke the camel's back. I have given you my warning. You can accept it and back off, or reject it and get banned.