Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You can't really say what my God has authority over and what he doesn't. Different ideas of God.
Fair enough but I can't be expected to understand such a vague, personal term without your help. You tossed it out there. I used the definition of that that is standard in my culture.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Since cancer isn't an 'outside' disease, it's created in my mother's body, by her own cells, so her cells have her cancer. And I'd like to move away from this conversation. You may use other examples, than my mother.
What defines an "outside" disease to you? I'm not familiar with the term. Bacteria come from the outside but I assume you'd say that the disease they cause in people is in the bacterial cells.
Is an "outside" disease supposed to be mental/spiritual?
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I tolerated your random trolling and baiting before - this is kind of a straw that broke the camel's back. I have given you my warning. You can accept it and back off, or reject it and get banned.
What random trolling and baiting? We haven't spoken for weeks and I've done nothing in this conversation but ask you to clarify a disturbing statement.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
My mother is diagnosed with terminal cancer, but I do not blame God for it. In fact, it hasn't even crossed my mind. I have taught my mother to meditate and to make sure that the biggest part of her body is the mind and she'll have the ability to, if not heal herself, extend her life.Happiness does not exist without suffering.
I believe in God, but I have not once blamed him for any shitty thing that happened to me, nor have I stopped believing in God. God is my spiritual guide - bad things that happen to me are of my own doing, my own bad thoughts and bad actions which have contributed to the shitty situation.
Even worse thing is that my bad actions sometimes lead others into pain and suffering, which is even bigger shit, not brought on my God, but by myself to others.
Yes, we largely agree here, too. Unlike most Christians, I do not ascribe God to being this devious malevolent being that actively harms his children to "teach them life's lessons".
IMO, God is far more deistic than that petty God that SC was talking about (I agree, SC, I don't like that God too much).
Because I am Mormon, we believe that WE chose to come here and go through this pain and suffering: not God. We believe that there were plenty of other things we could do but we chose a mortal life to grow and understand. Why? Just as you stated, we could not know true happiness unless we knew the bad.
So when people like Christians say, "God is giving me trials so I can grow", I don't quite agree with that. I believe that they themselves chose those trials because they made the free-will choice to be born into this life.
And "pain and suffering" are subjective perspectives that of course do have a genetic drive. Some people refuse to take anesthesia for personal or religious reasons...and some of them go through surgery (I can't even imagine this, but they do it). Some of them succeed and some of them have to be anesthetized for everyone's safety (because they freak the **** out once the pain hits).
So, yeah, I pretty much agree with your entire perspective. Usually, we cause all of the bad to ourselves and others. Sometimes, it happens naturally as part of nature. But, at the end of it all, it is our perception that decides whether or not it is pain or suffering.
Originally posted by inimalist
wait, how is this trolling? I'd just like to know so I don't accidentally do it...
You'll know when you do it. If you don't, I'll remind you.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fair enough but I can't be expected to understand such a vague, personal term without your help. You tossed it out there. I used the definition of that that is standard in my culture.What defines an "outside" disease to you? I'm not familiar with the term. Bacteria come from the outside but I assume you'd say that the disease they cause in people is in the bacterial cells.
Is an "outside" disease supposed to be mental/spiritual?
What random trolling and baiting? We haven't spoken for weeks and I've done nothing in this conversation but ask you to clarify a disturbing statement.
The only time you do speak or quote is either to bait or troll. I guess last couple of weeks there was nothing to troll on, also considering I didn't actually post for a short period.
Anyway, I already said all I had to on that subject. I don't like repeating it.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The only time you do speak or quote is either to bait or troll. I guess last couple of weeks there was nothing to troll on, also considering I didn't actually post for a short period.
The last thing of mine you commented about was when I pointed out a few flaws in Shakya's thing about black holes. I don't think that was trolling.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Anyway, I already said all I had to on that subject. I don't like repeating it.
But you never said anything about what an "outside" disease is. Is it trolling to be confused by your personal dictionary that you haven't explained? I feel Googling the terms "outside disease" and "inside disease" is a good faith effort to try and understand.
If you really don't want to discuss this, okay I'll let it drop.
See, everyone who believes in God says we must have Faith in His Divine Plan & yet the same people with said Faith further claim that we are just mere mortals unworthy & unable to comprehend His Almighty.
It's like signing a contract you're not allowed to read first, then getting fired or sued for breaking it.
I didn't ask to be created & yet in a Christian's beliefs I was born with the burden of Original Sin. In that sense I was born with the absence of holiness & perfect clarity & then I am judged for it.
Further more if Original sin is hereditary all the way back to Adam, then I can assure you that a) My bloodlines will not be traced back to the Garden Of Eden in the Middle East & b) Scientific fact states we evolved & were not descendants of Adam & Eve.
I mean what exactly are we supposed to have Faith in?
Why does The Almighty need to test us mortals?
He chose to walk the earth thousands of years ago in a time humanity was at its humblest form....why it is such heresy to question why doesn't he make an appearance again to justify his existence to add substance in our Faith to believe him?
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
See, everyone who believes in God says we must have Faith in His Divine Plan & yet the same people with said Faith further claim that we are just mere mortals unworthy & unable to comprehend His Almighty.
Did you read my post on this? I addressed this point.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
It's like signing a contract you're not allowed to read first, then getting fired or sued for breaking it.
I addressed this, too.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
I didn't ask to be created & yet in a Christian's beliefs I was born with the burden of Original Sin. In that sense I was born with the absence of holiness & perfect clarity & then I am judged for it.
Further more if Original sin is hereditary all the way back to Adam, then I can assure you that a) My bloodlines will not be traced back to the Garden Of Eden in the Middle East & b) Scientific fact states we evolved & were not descendants of Adam & Eve.
Well, Mormons do not think you were created. We believe your consciousness/intelligence has always existed compared our knowledge of time. It was God that organized your intelligence into a spirit, but the process is not understood too well. Also, I don't believe that we are responsible for original sin, at all. That's mostly a catholic belief. Pretty much all protestants do not believe in original sin, as well.
And, you are correct on the science and Adam and Eve stuff. I believe Adam and Eve were real people but their story is almost all allegory. Also, in Mormonism...and I am not supposed to tell you this (lol)...but right when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, there was already people in the world using things like money and "false" magics.
I tell you all of this stuff because your concerns are/were my same concerns. I feel most comfortable with Mormonism due to it addressing some most of my concerns.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
I mean what exactly are we supposed to have Faith in?
Why does The Almighty need to test us mortals?
He chose to walk the earth thousands of years ago in a time humanity was at its humblest form....why it is such heresy to question why doesn't he make an appearance again to justify his existence to add substance in our Faith to believe him?
I addressed that, too. It is not God testing us, it is us testing us. We chose mortality. We had the choice of tons of other shit like...maybe being a spiritual scientist where we study, in a very objective and innocent way, all the different cultures that come into being. We could be a chronicler. We could be a guardian angle. We could be messengers (why does God need a messenger?)
And Christ was considered to have come in the meridian of time: the meridian of human civilization. And it is not heresy to question why he is not here: I think such a being would welcome your questioning. The God I believe in (and the God that all Christians should believe in) would rather you be evil than luke-warm. He would rather you be completely secular and scientific than be lackadaisical or apathetic. He also encourages the seeking of knowledge.
So if you go through life seeking out science and understanding, you will not be faulted for it, imo. At least, this is what I believe about the God I believe in. I have no way to back up what I say with science other than my personal prayers, pragmatism, and observation.
Yeah Dadudemon, I did read your post & respected your Mormonism (sp?) however you did lose me with comments like, "WE chose to come here & go through this pain & suffering" OR "We chose mortality...we could've chosen to be anything."
When exactly in our mortal, human upbringing were we given a choice?
OR are you talking about a choice our ancestors made & we're bound by it?
Without sounding silly or insulting you...you make it sound like we were alien beings that chose this planet, this existence...that's where you've lost me.
Pain & suffering aren't subjective perceptions, they are a negative state of being. It's not a perception to grieve the dead, it's not an emotion to feel pain out of hunger or sickness.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Yeah Dadudemon, I did read your post & respected your Mormonism (sp?) however you did lose me with comments like, "WE chose to come here & go through this pain & suffering" OR "We chose mortality...we could've chosen to be anything."
Yeah, that's pretty much. Out of the nearly infinite things you could have chosen, you chose to be born as a mortal. That's a pretty rad decision, I think.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
When exactly in our mortal, human upbringing were we given a choice?
A choice on what? If you're referring to a choice on what trials you face, you were given that choice in the pre-existance and chose to become mortal to grow and learn.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
OR are you talking about a choice our ancestors made & we're bound by it?
Many choices your ancestors make directly impact your mortality, however, no I was not referring to that. Remember that I do not think we are punished for our father's sins? (Punished in the eternal sense, not the temporal. We are definitely punished, in the temporal sense, by our parent's bad choices).
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Without sounding silly or insulting you...you make it sound like we were alien beings that chose this planet, this existence...that's where you've lost me.
I never implied or stated that. However, that is possible. Mormons do not claim to know why we are here on the earth, just that we chose mortality to grow and develop as eternal beings.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Pain & suffering aren't subjective perceptions, they are a negative state of being.
No, they are perceptions of a negative state of being.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
It's not a perception to grieve the dead,
But it is an emotion. One person may celebrate the dead instead of grieve.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
it's not an emotion to feel pain out of hunger or sickness.
But it is a perception. I don't believe I ever argued that it is an emotion to feel pain from hunger or sickness.
It is not a crappy situation if you don't think it is.
The moment you lose the ability to think, though, is the moment perception and approach goes out of the window.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
dadudemon, I have a question in regards to Mormonism. Is there only one Mormonism or have there been any schisms within Mormonism itself?
There are a few break offs. I don't know the exact history but there was the one that broke off due to the succession problem when Joseph Smith was killed.
Then there was another break off when we made the decree to no longer practice polygamy. I believe there are two other very small break aways from Mormonism.
The beliefs within each group vary with some major differences, at times.
Dadudemon, you've done my head in with your explanations...don't get me wrong, I completely respect you & what you believe in but when you make statements like, "I chose to be mortal in the pre-existence...to grow & learn."...that is beyond my comprehension of where you're coming from.
Since I was 16 & that's nearly 28 years ago, nobody has had the ability to explain to me the notion of "blind faith" or the reason for the existence in God. It's not that I am head strong & stubborn, it's simply the fact that all my questions have always been answered in riddles, generalised statements or "tales" from the Bible.
Originally posted by dadudemoni have sort of a random question. you say choices our ancestors make impact our mortality, and you also say we existed as a spirit/consciousness prior to life on earth.
Many choices your ancestors make directly impact your mortality, however, no I was not referring to that. Remember that I do not think we are punished for our father's sins? (Punished in the eternal sense, not the temporal. We are definitely punished, in the temporal sense, by our parent's bad choices).
in your view, is the connection we share with our ancestors merely based on genetics or are we 'related' in spirit as well?
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Dadudemon, you've done my head in with your explanations...don't get me wrong, I completely respect you & what you believe in but when you make statements like, "I chose to be mortal in the pre-existence...to grow & learn."...that is beyond my comprehension of where you're coming from.
No, you're fine, dude.
Basically, Mormons believe in 3 states of existence. The pre-existence, (which is supposed to be outside of time...from some perspectives), the mortal existence, and the afterlife.
In the pre-existance, which may not have been bound by a "time" law like our universe is, we have always existed. We never did not exist. At some point (no way to make sense of it other than it is a different "timeline" of sorts), we decided that we wanted to leave God to grow and develop as spiritual beings. That required we make the right choices on our own, without being in God's presence and without our Godly knowledge.
This was our choice, not God's. We wanted to come here.
After we have lived our life (I am open to reincarnation, by the way. It is possible that our souls do reincarnate. I don't know, obviously), we judge ourselves (that's right...God doesn't judge us, we do). Then we obtain a heavenly glory based upon our judgement.
If we want to reject God completely, we can. We then go to a "place" (probably just a plane of existence) that is without God and His glory and this is what people commonly call hell. A person has to actively choose to go to hell, basically.
So that's how "life" works.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Since I was 16 & that's nearly 28 years ago, nobody has had the ability to explain to me the notion of "blind faith" or the reason for the existence in God. It's not that I am head strong & stubborn, it's simply the fact that all my questions have always been answered in riddles, generalised statements or "tales" from the Bible.
Oh man...you should have read the discussion between Digi and I. Basically, my perspective is that everything boils down to blind faith: even science. The only way to obtain a sure (objective) knowledge is through omniscience which is impossible to obtain as a mere mortal. All other knowledge then boils down to subjective knowledge with rules applied to it so we can come to a consensus...such as science (empiricism, which actually a philosophy).
And, I do not like the riddles and tales from the bible, either. I like straight forward explanations because I am much more logical. However, it would appear that the Jews loved them and it was more of a social thing for them. In college, one of my classes showed me where the bible had a strong math influence with some of the symbolism. It gets absurd and I had no idea how much "geometry" is referenced.
But, I believe that a person that does well with their life to the best of their ability will be just fine in the afterlife. No reason to even follow a religion, in my humblest of opinions. If you do right by yourself and your fellow humans, you are righteous, imo. No religion required. The God I believe in (I believe this God to be the God of pretty much every culture in history...I believe we humans have defined this same being in many different ways and versions...but it is the same entity) does not get hung up on what religion you are or how many hail Mary's you have said. He just wants you to be happy, grow, and develop, as best as you can in this miserable life.
Originally posted by red g jacks
i have sort of a random question. you say choices our ancestors make impact our mortality, and you also say we existed as a spirit/consciousness prior to life on earth.in your view, is the connection we share with our ancestors merely based on genetics or are we 'related' in spirit as well?
Good question. Some Mormons (and I myself, personally) believe that we chose our families in the pre-existence. We had friends and loved ones in the pre-existence. There is also the possibility and Mormon belief that we were assigned family members to create the absolute best scenario for our personal growth.
So, both, at the same time. I came to this conclusion based on very personal revelations via prayer. I feel extremely close to my mother, older sister, and older brother. So close that it feels like, all the time, that I have known them for a very long time (millennia...it seems like). However, I do not know my aunt very well, but it feels the same with her, as well. That doesn't make much sense but it just feels that way...and she has passed. 🙁
Also, some really weird things have happened that makes me think I knew someone else for eons before this life:
Here's the story:
I was driving home from work (7 years ago) and I was thinking about my day. Then a random thought popped into my mind that someone very dear to me was thinking about me. It wasn't just a random thought, it felt like a strong prompting of very peaceful love. But the though was quite clear: someone dear was thinking about me, and it did not feel like a family member.
So I picked up my cell (while still driving) and I called the person I thought was lovingly thinking about me. It was my future wife. 🙂 The reason this situation is so odd is I had never had a prompting like this before, in my life (nor have I experienced it since then). What is also odd about this situation is I had only been on a date with my now wife for 6 dates. When I called her and told her that I knew she was thinking about me, she kind of freaked out. She thought I was at her house (lol) or something. When I told her that I knew she loved me, she got afraid that she would scare me away. I told her that her love felt so familiar that I knew her...quite well, without actually knowing her.
Well, after date number 10, I asked her to marry me.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We suffer because of attachments.
Just saw this.
I mostly agree. I think some attachments are good like love of fellow man (in general) and love of family.
As Red is asking above..."our ancestors" is a very broad description...is there an equation or formula that determines exactly which generation impacts our mortality?
If we existed spiritually prior to our life on Earth, then in the Mormon sense why did "some" of us choose a life of poverty & slavery in South Africa?
Why didn't we all choose to be born with the intellect to become millionaires by the age 16...world leaders by 19?
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Let me share with you the point in my life when I lost my faith...My aunt grew up believing in God. As a child she went to church every Sunday with her parents & every night she prayed her thanks & gratitude. She truly believed there was a God.
In her late twenties, she married & gave birth to a sweet little girl.At the age of 33, when her little daughter was only 5, my aunt was diagnosed with terminal cancer. My aunt still prayed to God. She prayed for her little girl to have strength & never feel alone in life with God at her side.
On her death bed, her husband of 7 yrs came to the hospital & announced that he's had a gambling problem & lost what life savings they had. He also further announced that he would not be able to look after their daughter.
My aunt who had faith in God & devoted her life to him, died with the knowledge that she was leaving behind a homeless 5 yr old.
Now justify to me, where was God there?
What "Divine Plan" did he have that warranted leaving a 5yr old child homeless?
Why bring her into this world in the first place only to take both her parents away?
Why did God mock my aunt's faith the way he did?
I would like to say that I am sorry for what happened to your family. The Word of God states:
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. (John 10:10)
Sickness and disease is not of God. Sickness and disease is of the devil . The enemy satan is the one who oppresses people with sickness and disease. His purpose is to steal, kill, and destroy (John 10:10) everything in our lives that we permit him to through our words. The Word of God reveals that:
You are snared by the words of your mouth; you are taken by the words of your mouth. (Proverbs 6:2)
A man’s stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth;
From the produce of his lips he shall be filled. (Proverbs 18:20)
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit. (Proverbs 18:21)
We give the devil place into our lives through our words and our lifestyles. The Word of God commands us not to give the devil a place in our lives.
nor give place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27)
Don't give the devil any leeway, avenue, or inroad into your life because if you give him an inch he will go a mile, wreaking as much havoc as he can in the process.
If we say things like, "That makes me sick, or that scares me to death, or I love you to death etc." We are unknowingly giving the devil (i.e. the oppressor) a legal right to put sickness and disease on us, and even go so far as to take our lives if we do them long enough.
Luke records the true story of a woman who had a medical condition with her back. According to the Word of God satan was the culprit behind this woman's condition. The Word of God tells us:
Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.” The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound —think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?” And when He said these things, all His adversaries were put to shame; and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by Him. (Luke 18:10-17)
The devil is the oppressor.
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil , for God was with Him. (Acts 10:38)
Esau Cairn, God didn't take your aunt. God doesn't take people dead, He takes people alive (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11). Many times in moments or seasons of distress and trouble we wonder where God is. God promises to never leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13:5). He promises to be with us in trouble (Psalm 91:15). God is just as much with us when the sun is shining, when we are in the best of health, and when things seemingly couldn’t get any better as He is when the sky of our lives is overcast, when we're in pain, and when things seem to go from bad to worse.
Just because things do not go our way sometimes that does not mean that God is not with us. Remember He told us to walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7). We are to walk by what God has said in His Word—not by what we see, feel, or hear. Many times what we perceive through our senses will contradict what the Word of God says. This is why God instructs us to walk by what His Word says in the Bible, and not by our contradictory circumstances and situations.
Divine plan? The Word of God reveals that the secret things belong to the Lord our God (Deuteronomy 29:29). Many people mistakenly assume that since God is all-powerful that He is at liberty to do anything that He wants. But that is not the way God operates. God honors free will (or free choice). God will permit a person to make their own bed and then lie in it. God is not in the business of overriding humanity’s free will just because He has the power to do so. If God was going to use His power that way He would’ve done it a long time ago. He’d probably make everyone trust His Son Jesus for salvation. But just think about it: if God were going to do that then He would’ve done that in the Garden of Eden and prevented Adam and Eve from sinning. Think of all the things that you have done good and bad. Did God override your free will in any of those instances or did he let you freely choose your own way?
God didn’t take that child’s parents nor is He responsible for what happens to the child. I know this sounds cruel but God allows what we allow. God permits what we permit because He will not violate our free wills. We are not robots. Robots do not have wills. Robots can only do what they have been programmed to do. God permitted that child’s father to abandon her and He permitted her mother to pass away prematurely. Nevertheless, I do not believe that was God’s will. I do not believe that was God’s best.
God didn’t mock your aunt’s faith. With all due respect cancer is a very serious condition to have. Moreover, God’s power is never in question in times like this. It requires more faith to believe God for healing from cancer than it does to believe God for healing from a headache. Again, God’ power is not the issue. His power is always present to heal. Our individual faith is the issue. Besides our faith is not always operating at it strongest, especially in afflictions like this. Many times when Jesus healed someone He would say, “according to your faith be it unto you” or “your faith has made you well.” Just as a person cannot get saved without faith, neither can he get healed.
The bottom line is we do not really know what someone is believing (or saying over their lives) because we do not know a person’s heart. We do not know if a person is speaking life to their lives everyday or death to themselves on a daily basis that in turn give the devil a legal right to oppress them or put sickness and disease on them.
Only God can look at a person’s heart. Only God knows whether a person truly believes His Word or not. That is why God instructs us in His Word to trust Him.
Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him...” (Job 13:15)
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
As Red is asking above..."our ancestors" is a very broad description...is there an equation or formula that determines exactly which generation impacts our mortality?
None that I know of. As I answered red g jacks, some of us chose which families we would be born to, others were assigned.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
If we existed spiritually prior to our life on Earth, then in the Mormon sense why did "some" of us choose a life of poverty & slavery in South Africa?
Some of us may have chosen that, some of us may not have chosen that. Some of us may have chosen to be born under a specific person because we wanted them to be our father or mother. But due to the choices made by your ancestors, you ended up choosing a life of poverty. However, you were aware of that outcome or possibility. You were also aware that you would be leaving God's presence making this a very painful life (if you view it that way). You chose this life, anyway. (This is in a very general and broad sense...not 'you' you...but ambiguous "you"😉.
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Why didn't we all choose to be born with the intellect to become millionaires by the age 16...world leaders by 19?
Actually, yes, some were, as they call it, foreordained to be great kings, queens, prophets, leaders, etc. in the pre-existence. And our "intelligence" under Mormon mythology, was determined when God organized our intelligence into a spirit. But what we did in this life, some of it at least, was determined and ordained in the pre-existance. You chose to accept or reject those callings. Some of those ordained to do great things may not have been able to do them due to bad choices from others: remember, we chose.
Still, others may chosen a life that was very easy, mortally, but difficult, spiritually. Can you imagine how hard it would have been to become a righteous person if you were born into a kingly family in the 1500s? It was all processional and pomp. Your physical well being was very well provided for. So what need is there for God? There isn't. You must create the need through a willingness to humble yourself. Not something easily done. So why would a person want to born in "hard mode"? That's one of the worst ways to be born, imo.
It's easy to be humble when you're poor and/or dying of starvation. You really do not have a choice. But it is not easy to be humble when you are a king or queen of a large land and have tons of power and "things" at your finger tips. A person born like that may have chosen/accepted such a calling, but they most likely knew of the problems associated with being born as such.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I would like to say that I am sorry for what happened to your family. The Word of God states:
👆
Well, at least this guy is not a prick. Glad he humbles himself enough to show respect.