Define Atheism

Started by dadudemon15 pages
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This is what happens in 90% of debates with him, which is why I keep him on ignore to avoid getting sucked into it. Next he'll start freaking out and call strawman. I think it's subtle trolling. Make himself difficult to understand then say the person who misunderstood is trolling him.

Was this post even necessary, man? You can't just bury the hatchet? And not once have I "freaked out" in any discussion with you.

Correction: I clearly outlined my position multiple times and I have no idea why Digi even said he wasn't familiar with it. Do you want me to go through my posts and color-code the sections where I clearly state my point? I didn't do that for Digi because he deserves more respect than that (but your post at me does not).

And, there is no debate between Digi and I. We are not debating anything. We are discussing our perspectives on knowledge and "blind faith". There is nothing we can convince each other of as we already agree on the subject (that empiricism is the best and most logical approach to our subjective existence). It is simply a discussion of ideas and approaches to that knowledge.

This is different than a debate where you try to convince the other something is right or wrong: neither of us are wrong.

Edit - The difference between you and Digi is this: Digi actually asks before he goes into a rant about anther's position. He actually asks what they mean with something instead of using strawmans to address anything stated. Try that out next time we have an argument (there will be one in the future) and you'll see how much easier it is to have a conversation with anyone, not just me.

Well, you were in fact clear with your point in the discussion at certain times. But you also called me wrong on a couple occasions when I was summarizing your views and saying essentially the same thing. Thus the confusion.

I'm not going to take sides with the spat between you two. It usually takes two to tango when there's animosity, and is usually just best to drop it after a while. And I've had good discussions with you both. But I will say that if dudemon's trolling, he's trolling himself too just because of how much time we waste here. So there's that.

Also, dudemon, the link in your last post didn't work. Repost it?

Originally posted by Digi
Also, dudemon, the link in your last post didn't work. Repost it?

Woah. You're right.

And I don't know why.

I googled searched for an alternative copy of that document and I MIGHT have found something.

Edit - nevermind.

I got the link to work.

http://www.elefsis.org/Complexity_Decision-making_and_Requisite_Variety_Remington_and_Pollack.pdf

It's not working there either, but I'm able to copy/paste it when I go in to edit it as a mod. For some reason it's just not working as a clickable link.

I tried to get it to work in general with a simple edit, but no dice. Regardless, I can get to the page, thanks.

Originally posted by Digi
It's not working there either, but I'm able to copy/paste it when I go in to edit it as a mod. For some reason it's just not working as a clickable link.

I tried to get it to work in general with a simple edit, but no dice. Regardless, I can get to the page, thanks.

Okay, good.

That's frustrating as I relooked up the link and pasted it and then double checked that the link would work before I submitted my edit. I think it is putting in text into the URL when I submit my posts...

So what did you think? It was the business side of things (which is where I had run into the uselessness of Occam's Razor, for the first time, in an academic setting) but it is sort of on-topic with what we are talking about.

I don't think Occam's Razor can be used for anything short of simplistic reasoning arguments. Anything of scientific worth is not going to be able to use Occam's Razor. It will most likely use other principles that require more complex systems. Remember the systems that were in place for the elements and we slowly discovered more and more about matter? Yeah, Occam's Razor would have us using the old school system like "earth, wind, water, bla bla" I don't remember the rest. Those systems worked well to describe how matter interacted but it is literally exponentially more complicated than that.

Same thing with the universe.

"God created it with a command."

Woah..hold on...no. It is far far more complicated than that. In fact, it may very well be the most complicated thermodynamic phenomena would can possibly know for eternity (assuming we can never obtain knowledge outside of this universe).

FYI: Mormons think God interacted with an existing system...and existing thermodynamic system. Meaning, God did not create the universe ex nihilo. This is actually very close to Dawkin's "seeder aliens" that seeded earth for life. That, imo, is one of Dawkin's best arguments against creationism.

Wait wait, this is interesting. Can you tell me more about God interacting with existing system?

Did he create this existing system before or is he that system or is he part of that system or independent of it?

I did not hear about this idea before either, so please explain.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, Occam's Razor would have us using the old school system like "earth, wind, water, bla bla" I don't remember the rest. Those systems worked well to describe how matter interacted but it is literally exponentially more complicated than that.

No it wouldn't, Occam's Razor does not say "the simplest explanation is always the best" it says "all else being equal the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is the best".

The four elements are not as good an explanation as what we use today.

Originally posted by dadudemon
FYI: Mormons think God interacted with an existing system...and existing thermodynamic system.

You guys believe some weird stuff. Just sayin.

I'll get back to you on the article. Been busy.

Originally posted by Digi
You guys believe some weird stuff. Just sayin.

Believing that a system existed, which is pretty much what cosmology is concluding these days, is hardly weird. Unless you find modern cosmology weird (which many do)?

Originally posted by Digi
I'll get back to you on the article. Been busy.

It's not really that important. Just says how stupid it is to use Occam's Razor for modern business solution.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No it wouldn't, Occam's Razor does not say "the simplest explanation is always the best" it says "all else being equal the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is the best".

You're wrong but mostly because you used Wikipedia's summary (you're wrong because of the strength you're using...which is not the original Occam's Razor nor was it intended to be used so strongly...it is kind of like saying, "It rained just a bit yesterday" and then someone quoting you as saying, "it rained quite a bit yesterday"😉.

Sure, if you're using the introduction on the wikiepedia article, you could conclude that. hint hint, wink wink...

The actual "razor" is sometimes this:

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate."

And the ACTUAL theory goes something like this:

"If two theories equally explain something, the one that is simpler is better."

NOT this one that you used from wikipedia:

"It is a principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect."

The real basic of basic explanation for Occam's Razor is: "Appeal to simplicity".

Also, there is Newton's explanation:

"We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances"

In that instance...if there are two theories, one more complicated than the other, but both theories contain no unnecessary elements, then they are both equal and Occam's razor fails (by Newton's assessment) to be of help.

Here's how we would use it today:

"When you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."

Here, we see your explanation of Occam's Razor and how your explanation is actually strengthening the original meaning:

"Occam's razor is often cited in stronger forms than Occam intended, as in the following statements. . .

'The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct.'

Notice how the principle has strengthened in these forms which should be more correctly called the law of parsimony, or the rule of simplicity. To begin with, we used Occam's razor to separate theories that would predict the same result for all experiments. Now we are trying to choose between theories that make different predictions. This is not what Occam intended. Should we not test those predictions instead? Obviously we should eventually, but suppose we are at an early stage and are not yet ready to do the experiments. We are just looking for guidance in developing a theory."

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

Final word on this from Einstein:

"In my view, such more complicated systems and their combinations should be considered only if there exist physical-empirical reasons to do so."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The four elements are not as good an explanation as what we use today.

And you are most incorrect about the four elements from multiple angles (sure, if you want to pretend that the four elements, in their metaphysical and basic form, at a face-value interpretation of my post, is exactly what I mean, but that's obviously not what I intended and I'll reveal exactly why in a few spaces...). 🙂

I am quite glad you disagreed, as well, because it allows me to illustrate my point:

gravitation
electromagnetism
strong nuclear force
weak nuclear force

estahuh

Additionally, even your quoted wikipedia article makes direct reference to that exact subject:

"One can also argue (also in hindsight) for atomic building blocks for matter, because it provides a simpler explanation for the observed reversibility of both mixing and chemical reactions as simple separation and re-arrangements of the atomic building blocks. However, at the time, the atomic theory was considered more complex because it inferred the existence of invisible particles which had not been directly detected. Ernst Mach and the logical positivists rejected the atomic theory of John Dalton, until the reality of atoms was more evident in Brownian motion, as explained by Albert Einstein."

Also, we STILL use a form of the four elements but instead call them states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. peaches

Originally posted by dadudemon
Believing that a system existed, which is pretty much what cosmology is concluding these days, is hardly weird. Unless you find modern cosmology weird (which many do)

It's not the part about a preexisting universe. It was more the part about God interacting with it, which goes against pretty much all other Western ideas of God. It's just that, there's obviously inherited elements of older Christianity in the Mormon tradition, and there's obviously some brand new ideas like this one. So it's not like you happened upon all of the doctrine through observation or reason, a fair amount was borrowed from earlier traditions. But, that being the case, huge departures like this seem arbitrary when mixed with such an ancient base. The decision to keep some ideas and adopt new ones seems entirely random to me. Obviously it's based on something in Mormonism's history, but that history itself, right back to its supposedly divinely inspired founder, seems rather random to me. I mean, wasn't Jesus supposed to have come to the Americas after his death, and other such oddities?

Originally posted by Digi
It's not the part about a preexisting universe. It was more the part about God interacting with it, which goes against pretty much all other Western ideas of God.

AHA! Makes more sense, now. But I was referring to the lack of time and a multiverse (or other such theories) and God interacting with that system to create this universe: preexisting system to our perceptions.

Originally posted by Digi
It's just that, there's obviously inherited elements of older Christianity in the Mormon tradition, and there's obviously some brand new ideas like this one.

I disagree with that last part, there: "not ex nihilo" and "ex nihilo" are concepts that predate Mormonism by a looooong time. I think a "re-branding" from an atheist perspective would be more apt.

The phrase for what we believe is creatio ex materia. I won't use that anymore because it is too cumbersome and is used so very rarely as to make the use of such a phrase pure pontification in any conversation (it was YOU, "Digimark of Markingham", that explained why using such words in conversation is not a good idea or even counter-productive: remember when we discussed using the word "pescetarian" for your diet?)

Originally posted by Digi
So it's not like you happened upon all of the doctrine through observation or reason, a fair amount was borrowed from earlier traditions.

I see it as a reinterpretation of existing and extinct belief systems that was formed in a way that makes it right in a modern context because I want to gloat. 313

Originally posted by Digi
But, that being the case, huge departures like this seem arbitrary when mixed with such an ancient base.

Not to the Christians. They see it as such a huge departure from Judeo-Christian beliefs (even Hindi beliefs) as to make our religion null or wrong especially when we refer to God as "Omnipotent". It's a giant doctrinal departure and one of the basic contentions others have about Mormons.

"WHAT? NOT EX NIHILO? GTFO, you BLASPHemers!"

Originally posted by Digi
The decision to keep some ideas and adopt new ones seems entirely random to me.

The atheist part of me says that Joseph Smith came up with his non-ex nihilo creation story by reading about various religions with such ideas.

The hopeful side thinks, "Of course Joseph Smith said that because God revealed it."

Originally posted by Digi
Obviously it's based on something in Mormonism's history, but that history itself, right back to its supposedly divinely inspired founder, seems rather random to me.

"Random" sounds like the wrong word, imo. I believe "suspicious" or even, "fraudulent" sounds better.

Do you agree with my rewording? And, do not worry about offending me: you can hardly hurt the feelings of a Mormon in the bible belt. 🙁

Originally posted by Digi
I mean, wasn't Jesus supposed to have come to the Americas after his death, and other such oddities?

lol. "oddities"

Why is it odd that the Savior of all people (Jew and Gentile) visited other people besides Jews? For me, it seems even more odd if He did NOT visit other peoples after his resurrection especially since he said in John 10:16 (KJV):

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

As an atheist, you should think it more odd that most Christians disbelieve the Mormon "Christ visited the Americas" belief. How can they believe such a thing yet hold John 10:16 as veritas?

Anyway, here's another thing: Jesus did not ascend to Godhood, technically, until AFTER his resurrection.

Sources:

New Testement (Matthew 5:48 KJV):

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Book of Mormon AFTER His resurrection during his visit to the Americas (3 Nephi 12:48):

"Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect."

Meaning: Jesus ascended to exaltation AFTER His resurrection.

And here is ANOTHER strange theosophy that we belief: "objective truth" cannot be created. Now, sure, you can create pseudo-objective truth inside of a simulated universe or something (like a Matrix system), but that is not a "true" objective reality/truth (brain in the vat...man....BIAV!) I find that a bit strange/very different from other Judeo-Christian beliefs from any time period. They get very irritated (other theists) with the idea of un-creatable truths: it means God is not so Omnipotent as they perceive.

Heh. If you want to reword it to suspicious or fraudulent, I won't correct you. I think a lot of people have trouble stomaching Mormon origins, for (hopefully) obvious reasons. Which isn't to say traditional Christianity has any more believable roots. It's just buried so far back in antiquity that people are more accepting of it. I'll grant that Smith has as much chance as any prophet to be the correct one, or most correct, but you also know how high I think those odds are in the first place.

I understand what you believe now concerning the universe, but it's still a departure from anything resembling traditional Christianity, so maybe "new idea" isn't the right term, but it's certainly not a direct inheritance from your closest theistic relatives.

In any case, reinterpretations to match current knowledge is nothing new in theism. Eventually it becomes silly to believe something, so the less backward belief systems adapt (somewhat) to our scientific understanding, so they are forced into, for example, a creationism stance that requires abject denial of facts.

So yes, your belief on cosmology could be seen as more progressive. But it's still just a variation on the God of the Gaps, by putting him in a context that seems to make more sense given our scientific understanding. I know you think it's possible to know God, or that we might create Him eventually. But until one of those things happens, it's still lacking just as much concrete backing as the "ex nihilo" version and is only slightly more plausible from a scientific viewpoint.

Originally posted by Digi
Heh. If you want to reword it to suspicious or fraudulent, I won't correct you. I think a lot of people have trouble stomaching Mormon origins, for (hopefully) obvious reasons. Which isn't to say traditional Christianity has any more believable roots. It's just buried so far back in antiquity that people are more accepting of it. I'll grant that Smith has as much chance as any prophet to be the correct one, or most correct, but you also know how high I think those odds are in the first place.

I understand what you believe now concerning the universe, but it's still a departure from anything resembling traditional Christianity, so maybe "new idea" isn't the right term, but it's certainly not a direct inheritance from your closest theistic relatives.

In any case, reinterpretations to match current knowledge is nothing new in theism. Eventually it becomes silly to believe something, so the less backward belief systems adapt (somewhat) to our scientific understanding, so they are forced into, for example, a creationism stance that requires abject denial of facts.

So yes, your belief on cosmology could be seen as more progressive. But it's still just a variation on the God of the Gaps, by putting him in a context that seems to make more sense given our scientific understanding. I know you think it's possible to know God, or that we might create Him eventually. But until one of those things happens, it's still lacking just as much concrete backing as the "ex nihilo" version and is only slightly more plausible from a scientific viewpoint.

I literally cannot disagree with you on any reasonable level. Mormons have been accused of being too progressive...when it comes to some things. Such as how quickly we changed our stance on "blacks and the priesthood" (prior to that it was about how readily we were baptizing "Africans" into our church and how anti-slavery some of our early members were....which was extremely liberal for Missouri at that time). We are also considered fence sitters because we have refused an official stance on evolution or creationism (the justification being: "It is not necessary for your salvation or eternal progression to have a spiritual confirmation on such matters...those are for the secular community to determine" to paraphrase). I was irritated with prop 8, but it wasn't an election so it technically didn't qualify as "hands-off".

But, also, back to the way God created the universe: it seems like God of the Gaps but that stance on how the universe was created (it is referred to as "organized" in one of our scriptures) predated, by more than 100 years, the cosmology that the theology is finding a parallel with. "Confirmation bias" can also be blamed, if you want. So it is not a God of the Gaps stance: the stance predated any sort of modern cosmology system so it wasn't relegating God to a gap of unexplained "science". I will say that assigning God the realm of quantum interaction at the Planck levels is definitely God of the Gaps...and there are people that believe that that is exactly where God has, does, and will always continue to do his thang. That's just a reinvention of Aristotle's own beliefs on his 40 rings or the newer stuff that Mindship and I were talking about: holons. I hold that last position to be ...

I don't know. It's hard to describe. It is almost like a Deist God: He/She/It may as well not exist as having a personal relationship with such an entity is meaningless (it is like an ant...nay, a bacterium having a personal relationship with a super genius that has autism).

Wrap-it-up-time: I greatly look forward to a mature transhumanist movement. That can supplant God in everything as the entire world becomes secular. Most of all, I want to ask that damn Godly AI computer if there is a God. 😠 😠 😠 😠 😠

Atheist Definition

Do you think their is a difference between Lack of Belief and Disbelief?

"I have a lack of belief in god."

"I have no belief in god."

"I disbelieve there is a god."

do u think of absence of belief means you actively oppose it so it must be disbelief?

or is lack of belief a neutral position neither for or against? discuss.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t560514.html

😕

Re: Atheist Definition

Originally posted by Nietzschean
Do you think their is a difference between Lack of Belief and Disbelief?

"I have a lack of belief in god."

"I have no belief in god."

"I disbelieve there is a god."

do u think of absence of belief means you actively oppose it so it must be disbelief?

or is lack of belief a neutral position neither for or against? discuss.

YouTube video

Re: Re: Atheist Definition

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
YouTube video

I agree with his Mormon-Buddhist monologue towards the end of his video. 313

However, he is incorrect about the definition of "perfect". That is a subjective opinion on what constitutes "perfect".

A perfect eternal being may be that being which lives at an infinite state of mind and its sole purpose is to create and enjoy the company of its creation. It is impossible to know that a perfect being desires no children. It is impossible know that a perfect being desires children. We lack a transcendent objective knowledge to even arrive at his conclusion.

As you would put it, more Russian Dolls. Of course. But I just take issue with faulty atheistic or theistic arguments that presume to be sweepingly correct. It is kind of like believing that the sun orbits the earth and denying all other possible reasons that a sun-earth orbit does exist (but not the sun around the earth but the earth around the son).

Originally posted by Digi
You know, we have an atheism thread. Just saying.

Not much clue on the historical stuff. You'd probably have a better time on wikipedia or google.

Especially because there isn't a coherent doctrine or official group, there's not one definition of atheism. I'd contend that there's no one anything because belief is individual, but that's a philosophical argument, not a societal one.

There's varying degrees. In some rough order of severity we have:
1 - "I don't know"
2 - "I don't know, but I do not have a belief in any god"
3 - "I don't know, but I believe there is no God"
4 - "There is no God"
5 - "I know there is no God"

Most atheists would be 2-4. #1 is pretty clear agnosticism, not atheism, and #5 is pretty irrational extremism. My own definition would probably be #3, and is also what I happen to be, but there's contention on which is the most standard depending on who you're talking to.

IMO 3,4,5 is Atheism. 1,2 is Agnostic. What do you think about some of the Atheists that say they are "Agnostic Atheist"?

There is much debate on these labels now a days, that's for sure.

IMO to many different ideas or varying degrees for a word, take away the definition of a word.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
IMO 3,4,5 is Atheism. 1,2 is Agnostic. What do you think about some of the Atheists that say they are "Agnostic Atheist"?

That's basically what the numbers were supposed to represent. At least #1 is pretty much the definition of agnosticism.

As for "agnostic atheists" I've never actually encountered someone who labeled themselves as such. But I'm sure it falls somewhere within the definitions of my number-line, though they undoubtedly phrase it differently. Technically 2-3 on my list you quoted could be called "agnostic atheism." I just choose not to call it that, because if you say that to most people you'll confuse them.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
There is much debate on these labels now a days, that's for sure.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
IMO to many different ideas or varying degrees for a word, take away the definition of a word.

Words don't exist in a vacuum, but in the minds of each person using them. Because religion is a bot-button issue, we pore over definitions, but this amorphous nature is true of nearly any concept. We just don't care if peoples' definition of "action movie genre" is different, for example, but get all persnickety about religious and philosophical definitions.