What does that say about how pathetic we are? Too fragile to give up irrational motivation to the idea of God, for we'd be too unsatisfied with simply hoping but conceeding to uncertainty? Perhaps God isn't what we think it is, and we should not let ourselves fall so easily for the traps of "false idols".
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm sorry, no. The correct answer was "Everyone defines their own beliefs as undeniable logic."
That is one way of looking at it.
I am afraid of some of the religious people I associated with in the past. They scare me, they'll hear me talking about science and they will look at me and deep down I feel their subconscious is telling them I'm an outsider, a demon or something. It's THAT crazy out there. I'm just a dependent 20 year-old who has no influence at all. I hope to become independant very soon of course but I don't hope, in fact I find it unwise, to try and sway people to any way of thinking. I just want to live my life, unafraid, the way I want to live...people to share this dark journey that is life with me would mean more to me than any of this science stuff. That I am compelled to acknowledge as a human flaw we all share, even me.
Originally posted by Dolos
[atheism] can't be exploited or used to exploit
I strenuously disagree. Atheism currently lacks the influence needed to be used for impressive exploitation but that doesn't make it immune. Once you define an in-group and an out-group you have everything you need to exploit people. There's not any rhetorical difference between "kill the unbelievers" and "kill the believers".
I don't care what anyone else believes, or if you believe my beliefs are too rigid. At least I stick by my beliefs.
What do you believe? I bet it's too rigid. 😛
Have a belief, that's all. And quit being so ****ing melodramatic and hypersensitive to everything about religion. Your sensitivity and opinions are waayyyy to goddamn hypercritical so leave me alone cause it's rubbing off on me.
Originally posted by Dolos
I still don't understand what the **** you're trying to say.
by definition, a person believes that their beliefs are logical. all people. you. me. sym. everyone. it is tautological.
you saying "I think agnosticism is the only logical philosophy" is like saying "I have some opinion". It is a vacuous statement. For instance, you certainly haven't demonstrated said logic, merely stated that it was congruent with your life experience.
Originally posted by Dolos
What do you believe? I bet it's too rigid. 😛
I am confident in my beliefs and their justifications because if I wasn't confident in them I would have different beliefs. I'd argue that this is true of anyone who believes something.
The difference is that I wouldn't say my beliefs represent "undeniable logic" because a) everyone believes that their beliefs are logical, b) I am the worst source about how logical I am, and c) I wish to avoid convincing myself I have an absolute truth. What surprises me about you is that you claim agnosticism (rather vaguely, I'd add) is unquestionable but are disturbed by examples of what such thinking leads to in your experience.
Originally posted by Dolos
And quit being so ****ing melodramatic and hypersensitive to everything about religion. Your sensitivity and opinions are waayyyy to goddamn hypercritical so leave me alone cause it's rubbing off on me.
I'm not sure where you're seeing melodrama or hypersensitvity. I should mention, I'm an atheist (in the modern tradition of "there is no reason for me to begin believing in god" rather than the classical "I know for certain there is no God"😉, I just happen to dislike uncritical thoughts like "atheism cannot be used to exploit people".
*facepalm*...I claim uncertaintity to every little thing in life because nothing is certain, because that's a logical thought. Especially when it comes to religion or atheism. In my mind, the existence of God would be as baffling to a type X civilization that has absolute control over googols of hyper multiverses as it is to the simplest microbial organism ever to have existed in this cosmos.
What really baffles my mind is that your belief system is more extreme than mine, and that is exactly what you are anally and spastastically critquing me for.
It's stupid for an atheist, who knows there is no God, to claim an agnostic, who doesn't know shit, that his belief is as extreme as people who are psychotic enough to see demons in non-believers on a subconscious level.
Originally posted by Dolos
What really baffles my mind is that your belief system is more extreme than mine, and that is exactly what you are anally and spastastically critquing me for.
You claim to possess knowledge that cannot be questioned. I do not.
The nature of the belief, not the content of it, is what I'm referring to. Whether yours or mine is better or more accurate does not change the fact that you hold a dogmatic stance while I do not. We can example how extreme each of our beliefs are across many axes but the kind of extremism that leads to seeing people as demons is dogmatism. (Though I recognize you don't literally see me as a demon.)
Originally posted by Dolos
It's stupid for an atheist, who knows there is no God
I do not "know there is no God" because, in my culture, God has been defined in what I find to be an unknowable way. I simply hold to the principle that one begins without belief and should change that only when given reason to start believing. No one has given me an argument I find persuasive and I have never had an experience that convinces me otherwise.
Originally posted by Dolos
to claim an agnostic, who doesn't know shit, that his belief is as extreme as people who are psychotic enough to see demons in non-believers on a subconscious level.
Yes, I would argue that you are more vulnerable to this kind of extremism than I am. For example: You're already inventing emotions and motives for me.
I'll put this question to you: Why would a person deny something undeniable?
Either I am profoundly stupid or I am actively opposed to the truth, the same is true of everyone else who disagrees with you. You must believe either that members of your out-group (nonagnostics in this case) are lesser beings than you or that they are evil. You must either be see me as a "demon" or step back from your claim that agnosticism is undeniable.
I tend to find that agnostics either disagree with me on epistemology (they don't like the idea of starting from no belief) or semantics (they feel modern atheist philosophy is better described by agnosticism).
@Symmetric Chaos AND Oliver North.
I smell what you're stepping in now...first of all, I want to explain why I was so defensive, I believe my condition of low-T was activated this morning (I weighed less this morning after weight lifting last night) had my dopamine low. 😂
Second, adressing Symmetric Chaos, then you yourself are not an atheist, you are what's known as an agnostic atheist, which is the EXACT belief I have. You concede to uncertainty but operate outside of religion entirely.
Whereas people who practice religion while conceeding to uncertainty are known as agnostic theists.
Okay, I believe that we must assume that everything we think we know about anything could be innacurate, even agnosticism. Which is why I admitted that what I said was a belief, and not a fact. A 'belief' that it's undeniable logic to take an uncertain stance on everything.