If you're an atheist and don't believe in the Christian God, what reason is there to believe in a Satanic afterlife? The vast majority of atheists don't believe in God due to a lack of evidence, not a specific hatred against God. On that basis, there's a 99.99% chance that they also wouldn't believe in Hell or Satan due to a lack of evidence. They aren't animated by some anti-God hate and trying to support anything that goes against God. Atheists are not necessarily anti-theists.
Obviously if those afterlives do exist, then the one in Heaven is better than the one in Hell. That goes without saying. But an atheist shouldn't subscribe to either, so this shouldn't even factor into their thinking. Assuming an atheist does consider God their enemy to begin with, it's more to do with the concept of God than the character of God (they don't believe the concept of God has a real-world counterpart and think belief in this counts as a delusion; they aren't waging a war on the character of God and supporting alternate supernatural entities, lol).
Originally posted by SunRazer
If you're an atheist and don't believe in the Christian God, what reason is there to believe in a Satanic afterlife? The vast majority of atheists don't believe in God due to a lack of evidence, not a specific hatred against God. On that basis, there's a 99.99% chance that they also wouldn't believe in Hell or Satan due to a lack of evidence. They aren't animated by some anti-God hate and trying to support anything that goes against God. Atheists are not necessarily anti-theists.Obviously if those afterlives do exist, then the one in Heaven is better than the one in Hell. That goes without saying. But an atheist shouldn't subscribe to either, so this shouldn't even factor into their thinking. Assuming an atheist does consider God their enemy to begin with, it's more to do with the concept of God than the character of God (they don't believe the concept of God has a real-world counterpart and think belief in this counts as a delusion; they aren't waging a war on the character of God and supporting alternate supernatural entities, lol).
I agree too.
Again it's a matter of what you believe and the consequences of such beliefs.
Originally posted by Bentley
Somehow these observations feel as if they belonged together in a "quality of faith" kind of way. I mean, if you believe in God and expect him to keep his promise of a "prize" then you'd be somewhat less selfless than someone who does it without hoping for anything specific. I think any decent human being would understand that being good is a reward on itself (besides any possibility/impossibility of salvation). In the other hand no true believer should consider himself "saved" by default.We could also imagine the example of a natural empath that does good because he is always willing to help others and is never tempted to harm them. Would the lack of temptation diminish the quality of his actions? I'd feel inclined to expect some "quality of doubt" in any good person, as it goes to hand to faith in general (not just in the religious sense).
They are interesting questions and I think they are great grounds for deep fiction -I actually conceived a small novel with a similar take, now that I think of it-, but in practice moralists will tell you that morality is a social value and religions will tell you that making good deeds is not a competition, so the logic of what's better doesn't seem relevant in context.
Indeed. I think that sort of explains why Christianity works in the context of Jesus being God. Without that added authority his ability to essentially working like an explanation/reinvention of the Scripture would be impeded. So the morality would be closer to judaism, I guess.
This reminds me of a comicbook that I read the other week: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rabbi%27s_Cat_(comics)
If you read it you will probably find some familiar arguments regarding religious bias.
I honestly have no idea what would be the logic to redeem or condeem a mentally ill person. Even the Church agreeds that you cannot just Yell "he's possessed by DA DEVIIIIIL!!" like the good ol' times <--- honestly pretty terrifying times.
People who die are supposed to keep their memories and personalities in either Heaven or Hell, so I honestly have no idea how social interaction is supposed to work. Heck, I barely know how social interaction works on Earth XD
So basically the jewish authorities wanted to give Jesus shit because he was popular helping people and didn't spend enough time doing religious things. They wanted him to admit that God came before anything else (so he aknowledge them as superior) or else deny it (thus getting a way to attack him for heresy), in the Bible this is effectively depicted as a trap.
[B]Lawyer
: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Emphasis is mine
Jesus insists on how this "second commandment" is similar to the first one and cites them on equal ground. There he is in fact implying the First forcibly leads to the Second. The context here is to cite scripture to a Lawyer who is aware of Kal wa-ḥomer arguments.
Oddly enough, a number of translations won't communicate Jesus's emphasis on the similarity of his arguments purposely pushing the "second commandment" as just that: second in importance. But in the content of the Scripture that doesn't make sense: Jesus doesn't win the argument unless he disproves the binary nature of the choice he's been given by the lawyer who tried to set him up from the beginning.
I'm not sure if literal perfection is not nonsensical in a "I'm the best winner and the best loser at the same time" kind of way. But that's more of a footnote, God as described by the Church is the closest you can be to nonsense without losing the essence of meaning. That actually sounds like a mathematical equation now that I think of it.
I'm going to make an educated guess on how evil things come from God. One of the attributes that is often taken as the main godly attributes is Pure Actuality. This means that God effectively does stuff instead of just "potentially" do stuff. The possibility of anything is preceded by the godly action of it, so to speak. So you can imagine that God works like an eternally moving engine that does good things. How can evil happen then?
I can think of two ways: consequentiality and potentiality. Consequentiality: God does something good, but the effects of that action carry some ill effects (as if you produced a medicine that saves a lot of people but make a select few sick). Potentiality: God does something good, but we cannot reach it's perfect potential (we produce the medicine but we have no way of giving it only to the people that will get cured). The action is complete (the medicine is made), perfect in pure actuality but we are left with unwanted consequences. Sort of how a shadow is cast by light, non-actions from God are potentially catastrophic. [/B]
There's one more thing that came to me in regards to your earlier question regarding wanting to be in proximity of God while being against him.
If we take the stance of some Christians (don't know if Josh_Alexander falls under that category, hopefully he'll elaborate) then being "against" God could mean eternal damnation, in which case the wanting to be in his proximity is clear considering the alternative. However, if we take your position (that is much more humane) i.e you can go to heaveneven even if you don't believe in God as long as you are a nice person, then someone like me who (for the sake of the argument) is "against" God would end up in his proxity anyway, so I wouldn't have a choice in the matter because I'm not specifically choosing to be in his proximity, I am just behaving in a way that gets me in proximity with him for my own personal reasons.
Also, it makes less sense for Josh to ask this question (if in his view loving God is a mandatory condition for avoiding hell).
Originally posted by SamZED
Sorry for the long reply, busy weekend. Only have time to post here from work.
Overall, great talk btw. 👆There's one more thing that came to me in regards to your earlier question regarding wanting to be in proximity of God while being against him.
If we take the stance of some Christians (don't know if Josh_Alexander falls under that category, hopefully he'll elaborate) then being "against" God could mean eternal damnation, in which case the wanting to be in his proximity is clear considering the alternative. However, if we take your position (that is much more humane) i.e you can go to heaveneven even if you don't believe in God as long as you are a nice person, then someone like me who (for the sake of the argument) is "against" God would end up in his proxity anyway, so I wouldn't have a choice in the matter because I'm not specifically choosing to be in his proximity, I am just behaving in a way that gets me in proximity with him for my own personal reasons.
in his view loving God is a mandatory condition for avoiding hell). [/B]
Also, it makes less sense for Josh to ask this question ([b]if
Well it doesn't work like that...
Either you are on God's side or you are not. No middle ground.
According to the Bible God is giving you the opportunity to choose him or to choose being "Away" from him (Which would be translated into eternal damnation).
So in that aspect, if you Don't want to be in proximity to God then it doesn't matter how "Good and lovely you are" then you won't enter heaven.
Same thing would apply for those who choose not to believe in God. The moment you decided that God doesn't exist in your life then in that moment you are against him.
Being against him doesn't necessarily means that you have a grudge on him, it just means you decide that he doesn't belong in your life, or that he means nothing to you.
That's what being "Away" from God means.
Now regarding to which category of Christian do I fall! Well I don't know why there should be "categories".
The same Bible says it, there are two categories: With God or Against him.
[B] But either way answering you question, I consider myself an "open minded" Christian.
I was a "science guy" who really didn't buy the whole Religion thing. To make it quick, I ended up turning my beliefs and well now I am Christian but also Scientific.
So am anything but the orthodox type of Christian if you would have it that way.
The other day I stumbled into an interesting verse of the Bible that I think ties neatly with this discussion (it's a dialogue of Jesus):
"So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."
This comes just after one of the "whoever is not with me is against me" interjections, so it's being spoken entirely within the context Josh is bringing.
Please notice how it says plainly that any blasphemy will be forgiven. For context:
Blasphemy
2.
Judaism.
an act of cursing or reviling God.
pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
Jesus plainly goes and says you will be forgiven if you happen to randomly diss the Holy Father or the Son of Man (Jesus himself). However, speaking against the Holy Spirit, is considered a much bigger deal and deserves a different punishment altogether.
This raises the pretty honest question: if blasphemy doesn't condeem you then the "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" does not imply a literal adoration for the name on God. We can all agree that it's heavily implies it as the Holy Spirit is a part of the divine nature, but the fact that Jesus goes his way to threat this specific kind of blasphemy differently should raise (also) an eyebrow or two.
Originally posted by Bentley
The other day I stumbled into an interesting verse of the Bible that I think ties neatly with this discussion (it's a dialogue of Jesus):"So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."
This comes just after one of the "whoever is not with me is against me" interjections, so it's being spoken entirely within the context Josh is bringing.
Please notice how it says plainly that any blasphemy will be forgiven. For context:
Blasphemy
2.
Judaism.
an act of cursing or reviling God.
pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.Jesus plainly goes and says you will be forgiven if you happen to randomly diss the Holy Father or the Son of Man (Jesus himself). However, speaking against the Holy Spirit, is considered a much bigger deal and deserves a different punishment altogether.
This raises the pretty honest question: if blasphemy doesn't condeem you then the "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" does not imply a literal adoration for the name on God. We can all agree that it's heavily implies it as the Holy Spirit is a part of the divine nature, but the fact that Jesus goes his way to threat this specific kind of blasphemy differently should raise (also) an eyebrow or two.
Could you cite the passage you got that from.
Id like to read that myself.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well it doesn't work like that...Either you are on God's side or you are not. No middle ground.
According to the Bible God is giving you the opportunity to choose him or to choose being "Away" from him (Which would be translated into eternal damnation).
So in that aspect, if you [B] Don't want to be in proximity to God
then it doesn't matter how "Good and lovely you are" then you won't enter heaven.Same thing would apply for those who choose not to believe in God. The moment you decided that God doesn't exist in your life then in that moment you are against him.
Being against him doesn't necessarily means that you have a grudge on him, it just means you decide that he doesn't belong in your life, or that he means nothing to you.
That's what being "Away" from God means.
Now regarding to which category of Christian do I fall! Well I don't know why there should be "categories".
The same Bible says it, there are two categories: With God or Against him.
But either way answering you question, I consider myself an "open minded" Christian.
I was a "science guy" who really didn't buy the whole Religion thing. To make it quick, I ended up turning my beliefs and well now I am Christian but also Scientific.
So am anything but the orthodox type of Christian if you would have it that way.
And more importnatly why love/worship such a vile creature? Do you personally have reasons outside of fear? One could say "I worship God because he's good and just" but that's clearly not the creature you're describing if he tortures anyone who doesn't believe in him. Worse than that he tortures anyone who (it just so happens) was born at a wrong time or to a different (non-Christian) culture. It's not like Christian God left any concrete evidence of his existance that trump other so called evidence of all other religions. There are as many good reasons to believe in Thor or a thousand other gods as there are to believe in a Christian God. So he is not just torturing those who willingly turn on him, but those who never had the chance (through no fault of their own) to start believing in this particular version of god. Basically God was setting them up to fail from the start only to torture them afterwards. That's evil. And that doesn't even cover billions of kids who died before being baptised. So if you tell me that God is this horrifying all powerful monstrosity who we have to worship for our own sake then I can understand your position, but if you were to tell me that it is the all knowing all loving God that rewards good people and punishes those who clearly deserve it I'll be forced to question your own morality.
I have no argument against scientific people being religious. No one says you can't be both. It's just that certain aspect of various religions are incompatible with scientific facts. That's usually the place where science guys "leave their religious beliefes at hime" or simply accept it as a metaphor. Problem is - the more people discover the more metaphorical the Bible becomes.
Originally posted by Bentley
The other day I stumbled into an interesting verse of the Bible that I think ties neatly with this discussion (it's a dialogue of Jesus):"So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."
This comes just after one of the "whoever is not with me is against me" interjections, so it's being spoken entirely within the context Josh is bringing.
Please notice how it says plainly that any blasphemy will be forgiven. For context:
Blasphemy
2.
Judaism.
an act of cursing or reviling God.
pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.Jesus plainly goes and says you will be forgiven if you happen to randomly diss the Holy Father or the Son of Man (Jesus himself). However, speaking against the Holy Spirit, is considered a much bigger deal and deserves a different punishment altogether.
This raises the pretty honest question: if blasphemy doesn't condeem you then the "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" does not imply a literal adoration for the name on God. We can all agree that it's heavily implies it as the Holy Spirit is a part of the divine nature, but the fact that Jesus goes his way to threat this specific kind of blasphemy differently should raise (also) an eyebrow or two.
Originally posted by SamZED
Interesting. I wonder what was the historical context behind holding the Holy Spirit to this higher standard.
So a good person could reject the idea that the Father exists and created them or that Jesus is their savior out of skepticism or incredulity rather than malevolent intent, but to reject the Holy Spirit would constitute a failure to cultivate goodness within yourself.
Originally posted by SamZED
My question is not really about Christian categories but your general stance on this particular question that Bentley asked - "Why would you want to be in proximity of God if you're against him?" In his case it makes sense to ask this question because he doesn't believe that hell is the necessary alternative to believing in God. But I can't grasp why would you ask this question if you believe that eternal damnation is the puishment for being "against" God. Can you really not understand why someone would choose to stay with an ******* who treats you well as long as you sing him prays over being tortured for eternity?
What kind of question is that? Real people today make such choices all the time while living under violent dictators.And more importnatly why love/worship such a vile creature? Do you personally have reasons outside of fear? One could say "I worship God because he's good and just" but that's clearly not the creature you're describing if he tortures anyone who doesn't believe in him. Worse than that he tortures anyone who (it just so happens) was born at a wrong time or to a different (non-Christian) culture. It's not like Christian God left any concrete evidence of his existance that trump other so called evidence of all other religions. There are as many good reasons to believe in Thor or a thousand other gods as there are to believe in a Christian God. So he is not just torturing those who willingly turn on him, but those who never had the chance (through no fault of their own) to start believing in this particular version of god. Basically God was setting them up to fail from the start only to torture them afterwards. That's evil. And that doesn't even cover billions of kids who died before being baptised. So if you tell me that God is this horrifying all powerful monstrosity who we have to worship for our own sake then I can understand your position, but if you were to tell me that it is the all knowing all loving God that rewards good people and punishes those who [b]clearly
deserve it I'll be forced to question your own morality.I have no argument against scientific people being religious. No one says you can't be both. It's just that certain aspect of various religions are incompatible with scientific facts. That's usually the place where science guys "leave their religious beliefes at hime" or simply accept it as a metaphor. Problem is - the more people discover the more metaphorical the Bible becomes. [/B]
Well as i said before. You are free to choose. Jusg remember there are always consequences for our choices.
TBH your question puzzles me. Your question is: Why would you want to be in proximity to God if you are against him. Is that right? Well the answer is you dont. If you are against God then it means you obviously dont want to be near him.
Well thats your view on God. I personally dont see why would our creator be considered vile...Well respect and worship is something he atleast deserves for giving us life...that should be obvious.
No one said you dont have to "believe in other Gods" to be accepted by the Christian/Jewish God. God simply said that you were to worship him rather than other Gods. I believe in Zeus and Odin. I believe that they could probably be real, doesnt mean I worship them or consider them MY GODS. There is a difference in that.
God never said you were goingnto be punish for NOT KNOWING of his existence. He said you were going to be punished for REFUSING to believe in him.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well as i said before. You are free to choose. Jusg remember there are always consequences for our choices.TBH your question puzzles me. Your question is: Why would you want to be in proximity to God if you are against him. Is that right? Well the answer is you dont. If you are against God then it means you obviously dont want to be near him.
Well thats your view on God. I personally dont see why would our creator be considered vile...Well respect and worship is something he atleast deserves for giving us life...that should be obvious.
Originally posted by Bentley
if the prize is to be forced into the proximity of a god you don't want (as proved by your previous life), why would you want to be "saved"?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Exactly.
As for the rest of your post. True, God gets the credit for creating life but that alone doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to be loved or worshipped. In the same way violent/abusive parents shouldn't necessarily deserve to be loved or worshipped by their chidren. But I see your point, we can agree to disagree on this specific point.
But why wouldn't he be concidered vile? What is your view on his morality? Do you agree that anyone who doesn't believe in God deserves to burn for all eternity? Do you believe that's a just punishment for your fellow human beings?
No one said you dont have to "believe in other Gods" to be accepted by the Christian/Jewish God. God simply said that you were to worship him rather than other Gods. I believe in Zeus and Odin. I believe that they could probably be real, doesnt mean I worship them or consider them MY GODS. There is a difference in that.That's doesn't really negate my point. So you can believe in Odin but go to heaven as long as you do not worship him before the Christian God. That's still just as messed up. If you are born in a different culture and raised to worship some other god (or gods) before the Christian one there's a huge chance that you will. There would be no reason for you to switch to the Christian God because the evidence for the existance of your gods are about as valid as the evidence for the existance of the Christian God. And yet, you'd be sent to hell for eternity basically for being born in a wrong (non-Christian) place.
That makes little to no difference. If you're born in India for example you most likely have heard of the Christian God but "refuse" to worship him simply because you weren't raised to. That doesn't make you any less of a good person deserving of hell as opposed to somebody who's been born in Texas and taught to except Jesus as his lord and saivor since he was 3 years old. Basically God would punish you for not abondoning your faith in favor of somebody else's faith. Again, it's not like Christianity has some concrete evidence for their God that trump evidence of all other religions. They are all on equel footing. So if you're born in a place whith no christians, there's a pretty good chance that you won't be one as well. And you'll burn in hell for it.
God never said you were goingnto be punish for NOT KNOWING of his existence. He said you were going to be punished for REFUSING to believe in him.
Originally posted by SamZED
No, man, that wasn't my question. That was the question Bentley asked me - "Why would you want to be saved if you are against God?".
And I have directed my reply to both of you because you quoted the question earlier agreeing with it. To me this question makes no sense. Or it does from Betley's perspective but definitely not from yours. My point is - I do not understand why would you agree with it. I mean this:Ohh I see. Well i agree to Bentley's comment because it's logical for someone who hates/is against God not to want to be in his prescence/proximity.
[QUOTE=16411984]Originally posted by SamZED As for the rest of your post. True, God gets the credit for creating life but that alone doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to be loved or worshipped. In the same way violent/abusive parents shouldn't necessarily deserve to be loved or worshipped by their chidren. But I see your point, we can agree to disagree on this specific point.
But why wouldn't he be concidered vile? What is your view on his morality? Do you agree that anyone who doesn't believe in God deserves to burn for all eternity? Do you believe that's a just punishment for your fellow human beings?
That's doesn't really negate my point. So you can believe in Odin but go to heaven as long as you do not worship him before the Christian God. That's still just as messed up. If you are born in a different culture and raised to worship some other god (or gods) before the Christian one there's a huge chance that you will. There would be no reason for you to switch to the Christian God because the evidence for the existance of your gods are about as valid as the evidence for the existance of the Christian God. And yet, you'd be sent to hell for eternity basically for being born in a wrong (non-Christian) place.
That makes little to no difference. If you're born in India for example you most likely have heard of the Christian God but "refuse" to worship him simply because you weren't raised to. That doesn't make you any less of a good person deserving of hell as opposed to somebody who's been born in Texas and taught to except Jesus as his lord and saivor since he was 3 years old. Basically God would punish you for not abondoning your faith in favor of somebody else's faith. Again, it's not like Christianity has some concrete evidence for their God that trump evidence of all other religions. They are all on equel footing. So if you're born in a place whith no christians, there's a pretty good chance that you won't be one as well. And you'll burn in hell for it. [/B]
If this being gave you life! Then you should be grateful yes or no? I think it's logical that you should be grateful, else that would mean you don't wish to be alive.
You own that being your existence, the least you can do is be grateful to him. If someone gives you something should you love him for that? Are you grateful when someone gives you a gift/present. Now if we consider that Life is the greatest gift, then it is reasonable to understand God's expectations....
I don't see why you claim God being violent. If he was violent then he would have erased us for our sins long time ago. So i don't see your point.
However moving on...
Okay, that's a very debatable subject.
Romans 2: 12-16: God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.
A person who is born "outside the Christian/Jewish religion" does good and acts in a "moral" way (Follows the law) then he will be saved from hell even without knowing of God.
However, if you are presented with God and you DECIDE to REJECT HIM then you'll be damned.
You'll see there is a difference between Not Knowing God and conciously deciding to refuse him.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If this being gave you life! Then you should be grateful yes or no? I think it's logical that you should be grateful, else that would mean you don't wish to be alive.You own that being your existence, the least you can do is be grateful to him. If someone gives you something should you love him for that? Are you grateful when someone gives you a gift/present. Now if we consider that Life is the greatest gift, then it is reasonable to understand God's expectations....
I don't see why you claim God being violent. If he was violent then he would have erased us for our sins long time ago. So i don't see your point.
However moving on...
Okay, that's a very debatable subject.
Romans 2: 12-16: [B]God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.
A person who is born "outside the Christian/Jewish religion" does good and acts in a "moral" way (Follows the law) then he will be saved from hell even without knowing of God.
However, if you are presented with God and you DECIDE to REJECT HIM then you'll be damned.
You'll see there is a difference between Not Knowing God and conciously deciding to refuse him. [/B]
He actually has erased people for sins in the past according to Bible. That's not what I was arguing though. I believe that i've made a compelling argument for your interpretation of God being vile. I'd appreciate you addressing it. Specifically by answering the question I put forward - Do you agree that anyone who stops believing in God deserves to literally burn for all eternity?
And while that's good for people who don't know of God's law (i've addressed it in my previous post) it changes nothing for those who know of his law but "reject" him in favor of other deities due to not being born in the "right" place. There's no inherent difference between someone being born in a Christian familiy and in a Buddhist family and following their respective beliefs because that's what they were brought up to do that. Yet, one of them will go to heaven, the other one will be tortured for eternity. Just because they happened to be born in a wrong place. Doesn't sound fair to me.
Originally posted by SamZED
Being grateful and mindlessly worshipping is not the same thing. If your parents murdered a bunch of children, would you be grateful for the life that they gave you? Probably. Would you consider them good/loving and worship them? I doubt it.He actually has erased people for sins in the past according to Bible. That's not what I was arguing though. I believe that i've made a compelling argument for your interpretation of God being vile. I'd appreciate you addressing it. Specifically by answering the question I put forward - [b]Do you agree that anyone who stops believing in God deserves to literally burn for all eternity?
And while that's good for people who don't know of God's law (i've addressed it in my previous post) it changes nothing for those who know of his law but "reject" him in favor of other deities due to not being born in the "right" place. There's no inherent difference between someone being born in a Christian familiy and in a Buddhist family and following their respective beliefs because that's what they were brought up to do that. Yet, one of them will go to heaven, the other one will be tortured for eternity. Just because they happened to be born in a wrong place. Doesn't sound fair to me. [/B]
It depends on the reason for my parents murdering those children. Either way when did God murdered Children?
No one said you had to mindlessly worship him. It's not even a "have".
Well Sam.....What other alternative is there
There is Heaven and Hell. There is no other alternative.
If you decide to stop believing in God, then you are basically refusing to go to Heaven...so it's hell for you.
IDK how it works...But am sure God's perception and judgement is WAY ABOVE OURS. He will judge them fairly, for that don't worry.
You are taking it as if God was an unfair God, yet you forget he is God. He won't cast judgement or send someone to hell for no reason.
God has his own way of looking at things, he will know what to do with those who were born outside his religious domains.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
It depends on the reason for my parents murdering those children. Either way when did God murdered Children?No one said you had to mindlessly worship him. It's not even a "have".
[B] Well Sam.....What other alternative is there
There is Heaven and Hell. There is no other alternative.
If you decide to stop believing in God, then you are basically refusing to go to Heaven...so it's hell for you.
IDK how it works...But am sure God's perception and judgement is WAY ABOVE OURS. He will judge them fairly, for that don't worry.
You are taking it as if God was an unfair God, yet you forget he is God. He won't cast judgement or send someone to hell for no reason.
God has his own way of looking at things, he will know what to do with those who were born outside his religious domains. [/B]
If your judgment is so faulty, then how can you determine that god's is fair?